#41  
07-20-2014, 11:40 AM
pinheadlarry pinheadlarry is offline
Invalid Email / Banned / Spammer
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 76
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Almost every tape i'll be working with is a 'clip show'. And just as you described lordsmurf, these videos almost always use mutliple cameras. I see the same thing with recent dvds as well. Also, since this is a small niche that bloomed out of hte 90's, most of these tapes were recorded and edited by hobbyist and not hollywood professionals.

You each mentioned some errors, but my question is how do i fix them.. and fix them properly for online/progressive viewing? There have been many comments about the problems with the videos, especially with the latest samples i posted. But not so much on how to actually fix or clean up these errors. badly deinterlaced, artifacts, jitter i'm not sure what to do with these terms except add them to my list of google searches.


I read premium captures response last night about the LTBC, which i believe to be TBC or similar? I wasn't paying attention to the VCR for the recordings in the beginning as i thought i had TBC on, but i did some test captures in VirtualDub with the TBC on and off and noticed a difference with the 'interlacing?' lines. As I am a noob, I was playing with any filter that sounded familiar. I used a deinterlacing filter with 'blend fields' selected and it noticeably improved the blur-lines of the TBC capture. Now i have no idea if what is what i should have done, but these are just my experiments. I'll be posting some better samples later today.

I really appreciate all the quick feedback i've received so far. This website is truly a great, and i wish all my hobbies had an online presence as organized as you guys. So I just wanted to say Thanks offering a great place to learn and receive actual helpful feedback...and for dealing with noobs who are in way over their head
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #42  
07-20-2014, 12:09 PM
premiumcapture premiumcapture is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 585
Thanked 72 Times in 65 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
mm, sorry. I can't agree. The linked video is badly discolored and seriously noisy beyond repair. This shouldn't be a matter of opinion -- the damage is basic and the mistakes are obvious. True, most of the macroblocks are due to UTube's endless creativity in finding ways to wreck video, but the rest appears to be the owner's fault. Disheartening to see how the likes of uTube have trained folks to accept just about anything.

OK, maybe after breakfast I won't be such a grinch. Is it really that difficult to do a better job with video, even VHS? Or do people just let the video and the gear and software control them instead of the other way around?
I think the macroblocks are just due to the fact that it came from DV, they are too big for youtube.

I think everyone's standards are different, but there are some people out there that either don't know how to do a lot of this stuff or don't want to spend more time on something than they will be watching it.

I have never associated the words YouTube and quality together, watchable is a better word.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
07-20-2014, 12:19 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
I agree with all of that, yes. Messed up video just irks me, that's all.

Depends on the moon.

@pinheadlarry, I can look at those caps today and try to come up with some suggestions later.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
07-20-2014, 04:28 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,508
Thanked 2,449 Times in 2,081 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
".mov" is a container, not a format. The file ending itself doesn't tell us what codec was used.
Like MPEG, it's BOTH a format and a container. Quicktime is an uncompressed format that fits into a Quicktime MOV container. But unlike MPEG, the Quicktime container can also house other formats like H.264, ProRes422, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
dinterlaced and then reinterlaced.
I never thought of that -- it may have been deinterlaced before it was even edited back to tape, if pinheadlarry didn't do it by accident in his own workflow. In that case, all you can do is try to undo the jaggy damage, using either (or both) Avisynth anti-alias filters.For example:
Code:
santiag(strh=2,strv=2)
AAA()
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn
The linked video is badly discolored and seriously noisy beyond repair.
OK, maybe after breakfast I won't be such a grinch.
Nah, this is not hopeless. Go eat breakfast.

It's still overhaul pretty good. Ideal with worse videos all the time. I wish the source was this good! You should see the two sources I'm working on right now. (And you will, when I have time to finish writing that guides AND finish the project.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinheadlarry
You each mentioned some errors, but my question is how do i fix them.. and fix them properly for online/progressive viewing?
You'll never get it perfect, because applying a filter to one clip messes up another, So some level of imperfection will always remain. What you can do is
(1) basic cleanup that applies to the video -- undoing the last generation worth VHS damage, no camera shooting damage
(2) do a good deinterlace with QTGMC in Avisynth

Either
Code:
AssumeTFF() # optional, BFF for DV source
QTGMC(Preset="Slow") # best deinterlacer - balances speed + quality
SelectEven() # 
#SelectOdd() # alternative
or
Code:
AssumeTFF() # optional, BFF for DV source
QTGMC(Preset="Slower", SourceMatch=3, Lossless=2, MatchEnhance=0.75, TR2=1, Sharpness=0.1) # best but only 2fps!
SelectEven()
#SelectOdd() # alternative
I want to see what sanlyn is thinking, in terms of basic cleanup. I'm thinking just a basic 2-3 radius Temporal Cleaner in VirtualDub. Maybe a Chroma Shift in Avisynth, but what I find is the shift changes per clip, meaning it was edited together from non-masters, but copies of copies from home VCRs.

This will help: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/news...-avisynth.html

The full guides are currently being worked on, so you're too early for it. You'll just need to ask for help here, and we can try to give it, in terms of software usage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinheadlarry
I read premium captures response last night about the LTBC, which i believe to be TBC or similar?
I knew that would happen. Shame, shame premium!

He means "line timebase corrector", "line TBC" -- you almost never see it shorthanded as LTBC. A line TBC is usually part of a S-VHS VCR. If you're using the JVC SR-V10U (right?), then you have on. Just be sure it's turned on in the menu.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinheadlarry View Post
I really appreciate all the quick feedback i've received so far. This website is truly a great, and i wish all my hobbies had an online presence as organized as you guys. So I just wanted to say Thanks offering a great place to learn and receive actual helpful feedback...and for dealing with noobs who are in way over their head
Thanks much for the awesome comment!

(Added it here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/news...q-members.html too!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by premiumcapture View Post
I think the macroblocks are just due to the fact that it came from DV, they are too big for youtube.
The DV blocks are probably from the fast scene switching. Content like this really needs to be lossless to be perfect to work with (edit, restore, deinterlace/encode for streaming).

The entire lossless > streaming workflow is what I use professionally -- or rather, did use, as it's been 6+ months now since I did any streaming work for studios. With professional software, of course. But I can insert freeware into the same workflow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by premiumcapture
I have never associated the words YouTube and quality together, watchable is a better word.
Indeed!

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
The following users thank lordsmurf for this useful post: pinheadlarry (07-20-2014)
  #45  
07-20-2014, 04:30 PM
pinheadlarry pinheadlarry is offline
Invalid Email / Banned / Spammer
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 76
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
captured in virtualdub. screenshots taken of raw avi through vlc

No tbc
no-tbc.png

tbc
You must be logged in to view this content; either login or register for the forum. The attached screen shots, before/after images, photos and graphics are created/posted for the benefit of site members. And you are invited to join our digital media community.


tbc-picturecontrol set to edit
tbc.png


ps. just saw lordsmurfs last past. time to start researching



Last edited by pinheadlarry; 07-20-2014 at 04:42 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #46  
07-20-2014, 04:42 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,508
Thanked 2,449 Times in 2,081 Posts
In the still, I don't see much difference with/without TBC. But it needs "ChromaShift" in Avisynth, follwoed by "Camcorder Color Denoise" in VirtualDub. It has really ugly color issues. But here's the thing -- is the whole tape like this, or just that one clip?

CCD is Vdub is good tape-wide.
But ChromaShift is not. You want this most, however, if possible.

NOTE: Video gets "sharper" simply by realigning chroma!

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
The following users thank lordsmurf for this useful post: pinheadlarry (07-20-2014)
  #47  
07-20-2014, 04:46 PM
pinheadlarry pinheadlarry is offline
Invalid Email / Banned / Spammer
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 76
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
some clips look better than others, but for the most part it's similar

here are two small clips

tbc
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kb00yms1jf7u2xn/tbc.avi

no tbc
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7r6xelbybqtaig7/no-tbc.avi
Reply With Quote
  #48  
07-20-2014, 05:35 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
I haven't had time to look over the .avi samples, but the images look cleaner or, at least, color looks better. As for the tbc effects or lack of them: looks like the patched-in shots from the "masters" left ragged edges and fuzzy borders that would have looked better if more care had been taken. Unfortunately, once those problems get recorded into the source, adding a tbc later won't make them go away. But at least it keeps things from getting worse. The "tbc on" shot does have slightly smoother edges in some areas, especially bright-edged objects. The "edit" shot is digitally enhanced but looks OK. Whether or not to use JVC's Edit setting depends on the source tape: it works fine with some tapes, not so great with others.

The chroma bleed in these tapes is really awful.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
07-21-2014, 12:21 PM
pinheadlarry pinheadlarry is offline
Invalid Email / Banned / Spammer
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 76
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Well i'm still trying to figure out AviSynth to follow lordsmurfs recommendations, but i have some questions about the capture itself.

Is there a specific resolution i should be capturing in for online viewing? Should i adjust this before capturing or just let the canopus run it's resolution. which i think is 720x480.

I can't get VirtualDub to recognize Huffyuv, so i'll be using Lagarith. No question, just want to get feedback if this isn't the best option behind Huffyuv. (I think someone mentioned huffy x mac problems earlier in this thread.)

Also, i'm going to be capturing in FCP, then i'm opening the raw dv file (mov container) in AviSynth via QTsource. Is this an ok workflow?

I tried to capture using VirtualDub but i had no audio, then WinDV won't recognize my canopus, so i think my only option is FCP.

For the AviSynth headache, I've installed the plugins into the avisynth folder in Programfilesx86, but when i try to type the relevant code into avsPmod i keep getting a "no function named x". I'm sure i'm overlooking something simple, but i'll be spending the day trying to figure this out.

i realize now that i wasn't to specific with the avisynth headache. I think the problem is the .mov doesn't have YV12 colorspace?

ps. i have no idea what that means
Reply With Quote
  #50  
07-21-2014, 02:17 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
I don't use a Mac, so someone familair with running VDub in other workspaces will have to help there.

I don't see that capturing to DV with FCP is going to help. We already know what those captures look like. They won't be lossless in DV, aliasing and other artifacts will be more difficult to clean up, you'll lose some color resolution, and you'll have to go to another lossy re-encode for online or other final output anyway. DV is PC playback only.

Your VirtualDub capture had muted audio, bit it did have an audio channel. Even if it wasn't mute, the sampling rate was too low (it was 96khz). For online viewing -- or for anything else, really -- capture at 640x480. For final output as DVD/AVCHD, etc., you can resize in Avisynth. I don't know the reason for the mute audio, but it could be incorrect settings. Audio capture isn't usually enabled by default. Did you capture with composite cable or s-video?

Your tbc.avi and no-tbc.avi were captured at 20fps, which I don't think is correct. The Colorspace was YUY2, which is preferred. DV capture can be only YV12, and DV uses a somewhat different color matrix than VHS YCbCr.

Use 32-bit Avisynth. If you're using 64-bit win7 it won't work if you install 32-bit Avisynth in 64bit folders or vice-versa. Install only 32-bit filters with 32-bit apps. There are hardly any 64-bit filters. I don't know which Avisynth plugins you refer to.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
07-21-2014, 03:14 PM
pinheadlarry pinheadlarry is offline
Invalid Email / Banned / Spammer
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 76
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
In VirtualDub, 'audio > enable audio capture' has been selected for each capture. i haven't been able to find a solution yet.

audio input - the only option is 'master volume'

audio source - no options available.

also,i installed a new VD with windows 7 and now Huffyuv is working.

Last edited by pinheadlarry; 07-21-2014 at 03:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
07-21-2014, 03:56 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinheadlarry View Post
audio source - no options available.
Ouch! Something wrong there. Of course, you have left/right audio cables hooked up somewhere (well, thought I'd ask). I don't know what capture device you're using. If your audio card is a Mac piece, well....that might be it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinheadlarry View Post
also,i installed a new VD with windows 7 and now Huffyuv is working.
That's good news, anyway. Hopefully someone with knowledge of how you're running win7 on a Mac can chime min. Wish I could give more details.

Ye olde vgsamp2.mov (ah, remember that one?) gave me fits but I couldn't just let it sit there. My Achilles heel. Seriously, it's such a wreck. Not your fault, of course. I did what I could with it. Can give some details later if anyone wants, but 90% of the work was in Avisynth, the rest in VirtualDub. Some aliasing still there, lots of smeared chroma remains. I guess you could say the mp4 looks, uh, "better"....for want of a more accurate and less charitable term. What that last shot of the leap over the wall is supposed to look like is anyone's guess. I'm afraid some sort of autowhite or autogain helped do it in. I hate "auto" stuff. Has a mind of its own. Basically I just denoised it. I really wish those guys knew how to deinterlace. Of the few brights that the movie crew didn't totally obliterate, a few stretch toward RGB 255 a bit, but this is PC display anyway. Suggestions welcome. Just don't kick me.

They say anything is possible. Not really.


Attached Files
File Type: mp4 VG2_sc08.mp4 (19.23 MB, 1 downloads)
Reply With Quote
  #53  
07-21-2014, 09:00 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,508
Thanked 2,449 Times in 2,081 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinheadlarry View Post
also,i installed a new VD with windows 7 and now Huffyuv is working.
Windows 7 x64? If so, you were installing the 64-bit DLL, not the 32-bit one.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pinheadlarry View Post
i realize now that i wasn't to specific with the avisynth headache. I think the problem is the .mov doesn't have YV12 colorspace?
In Windows, in VirtualDub, convert the MOV to AVI.
Then process the AVI in Avisynth, then feed the AVS script to VirtualDub. Save as the processed video.
This is easiest, even if extra steps.

The source capture should be YUY2, not YV12. Where are you seeing YV12?

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #54  
07-21-2014, 09:38 PM
pinheadlarry pinheadlarry is offline
Invalid Email / Banned / Spammer
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 76
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Windows 7 x64? If so, you were installing the 64-bit DLL, not the 32-bit one.
is this good or bad lol? (i was previously running windows 8)

That may be the easiest way to get to my goal, but what is the best way to ensure quality? Does VirtualDub really produce a better capture compared to FCPx?

For the YV12, i opened my .mov file in virtualdub with QTsource, then when i tried to apply a few of the filters you mentioned i got an error messaging saying it only supported that colorspace. sorry for the unspecific description
Reply With Quote
  #55  
07-21-2014, 10:44 PM
premiumcapture premiumcapture is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 585
Thanked 72 Times in 65 Posts
It may be worth a momentary time out to figure out what you expect to get out of the tapes. You mentioned you have a bunch of these and plan to do more. They seem to come from inconsistent sources, which means on the long end you can segment and edit each, which will take a long time, or broadly filter, which will produce results not as good but save you a ton of time.

Since these are commercial videos and you are going to YouTube for final export and capturing DV, I would shoot for better quality than available videos which is very easy to do but thats just me.

At a minimum, I would suggest Camcorder Color Denoise, QTGMC for deinterlacing/noise reduction, and bringing the file back into FCP X for color grading and final export. If you give the same file to ten people, you will most likely get ten different videos back, albeit the best should be fairly similar.
Reply With Quote
  #56  
07-22-2014, 03:17 PM
pinheadlarry pinheadlarry is offline
Invalid Email / Banned / Spammer
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 76
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I've been pretty clear with what i want to get out of these tapes. My set up isn't ideal, but i'd like to get the most of my setup. i have a quality over quantity mentality with everything i do..

I assume those are avi filters you mentioned?

I'm still going to work on this audio problem. I'd hate to have to capture in worse quality.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
07-22-2014, 03:47 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinheadlarry View Post
I assume those are avi filters you mentioned?
They aren't strictly "AVI" filters. There are Avisynth filters that work with decoded AVI in YUV and RGB, while most NLE's will use RGB filters. I suggest you use Avisynth to convert to RGB if it's necessary. Most NLE's do a sloppy job of it.
Reply With Quote
  #58  
07-22-2014, 04:45 PM
premiumcapture premiumcapture is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 585
Thanked 72 Times in 65 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinheadlarry View Post
I've been pretty clear with what i want to get out of these tapes.
I think over three days you have learned a lot from where you started, but I don't think you are accounting for the time factor here. Words like 'best' are often misunderstood. No two VCRs, even from the same make and model, play a tape the same way. Because of this, there is never any absolutely clear reference for how a tape should look, it all comes down to personal preference, something that you can only truly develop once you know enough about video errors, how to correct them, and what effect corrections will have on your original capture.

That's the reason why there are so many suggestions here to drop the Canopus. It is essentially the equivalent of putting a filter on to degrade your video before you start. If you are looking to get them as good as they can look, the Canopus by my estimate cuts the original quality by 25%. Considering how bad VHS is to begin with, you end up turning a bad source into a worse source. And that isn't even considering the time factor.

If you are looking at 30 tapes, you could be looking at roughly 20-45 hours of capture time before even beginning to edit. Since you are still learning about filter options, depending on what you are looking for, continuous time on a single tape could exceed 12 hours. If you work on these two hours a day, you are still looking at three months.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
07-22-2014, 09:23 PM
pinheadlarry pinheadlarry is offline
Invalid Email / Banned / Spammer
 
Join Date: Jul 2014
Posts: 76
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
You made some good points premium.

It's not that i'm totally stuck on the canopus, but i don't see many other options...unless i buy a new computer. I'm not aware of any other replacements for my canopus that can provide better results. If you can, please recommend me a device as i'm still within the 30 day return policy at amazon lol

Time is irrelevant for this. I'm just doing this as a hobby and if i ever need content DVDs aren't nearly as complicated

Also, i think i found a remedy to the no-audio in VirtualDub. I'm going to record video in VirtualDub and record audio with quicktime on my mac.
Reply With Quote
  #60  
07-22-2014, 11:04 PM
premiumcapture premiumcapture is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Boston, MA
Posts: 585
Thanked 72 Times in 65 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by pinheadlarry View Post
You made some good points premium.

It's not that i'm totally stuck on the canopus, but i don't see many other options...unless i buy a new computer. I'm not aware of any other replacements for my canopus that can provide better results. If you can, please recommend me a device as i'm still within the 30 day return policy at amazon lol

Time is irrelevant for this. I'm just doing this as a hobby and if i ever need content DVDs aren't nearly as complicated

Also, i think i found a remedy to the no-audio in VirtualDub. I'm going to record video in VirtualDub and record audio with quicktime on my mac.
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/myth...html#post32117

This is something you should definitely read. I bring up DV myself a lot because as a Mac user seeing a lot of Mac users praise the Canopus, I came close to buying one myself.

In the end, for stuff I want to put directly to YouTube or commercial tapes, I use the Elgato Game Capture HD. I don't claim its better than uncompressed options, but at high bitrates and 4:2:0 sampling, it retains a high amount of detail with enough bitrate to not choke on noise that editing and quality are fine and look much better than other VHS captures on YouTube I have seen.

Lets say the video quality on YouTube of VHS is a 2. The captures I get with H.264 and some brief editing give me a 7-8. If you want to take commercial tapes to a 10, this is what putting in work for a 10 looks like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dHfLX_TMduY

Last edited by premiumcapture; 07-22-2014 at 11:05 PM. Reason: Forgot link
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Workflow for Hi8 Conversion to h.264-10bit video tiagodamian Project Planning, Workflows 9 09-13-2012 01:39 PM
Help with creating my VHS to DVD workflow rappy Project Planning, Workflows 1 05-09-2012 04:08 PM
Monitor calibration suggestions for video capturing/editing workflow Mejnour Project Planning, Workflows 10 02-11-2012 10:46 AM
PAL vs NTSC, which one to use in my workflow? lordsmurf Project Planning, Workflows 0 03-25-2010 07:39 PM
DVD project workflow help, SLP VHS to DVD Superstar Project Planning, Workflows 4 02-27-2009 10:30 AM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:50 AM