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  #41  
08-22-2014, 04:33 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I stopped using the ES20 for recording tapes directly to DVD because of that same issue -- but only occurred with some tapes, most of which were rather crappy and as bad as home-made webcams. I can't say they looked grainy to me, unless the tape started out that way. But that would happen with almost any DVD recorder and tape. No problem recording tv shows off cable. Can't vouch for the ES15 because I've never recorded with it, only used it for pass-thru with no problems using quality VCRs. Any recording I do nowadays is off digital cable to a Toshiba RD-XS34 or a Hauppauge HD PVR. I gave up on VHS-to-DVD and VHS-to-DV a long time ago, except for really careless stuff I don't attach much value to. I capture to losssless AVI with All In Wonders. Sometimes I put it through heavy-duty cleanup, sometimes I just run a quickie denoiser and let it go to the encoder.

Family tapes that are given to me (weddings, mitzvahs, etc.) get the full lossless treatment and a lossless archive to hard drive or USB stick. I see no sense in screwing up tapes of strong personal value just for convenience.

Just my $.02 .
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  #42  
08-22-2014, 09:14 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by premiumcapture View Post
Most, if not all DVD recorders, behave the way I described. It will not add one filter to a raw source and leave it unencoded and otherwise untouched.
How many DVD recorders have you tested that you feel comfortable making this blanket statement?

The analog outputs are designed to be viewed any time the device is powered on. There is no reason to pipe the signal through the MPEG-2 encoder before outputting it, and good reasons not to without even considering quality problems (like not wanting to stress the chip 100% of the time the unit is on, power/heat concerns, latency of at least 1 GOP from the encode-decode process). Furthermore, imagine if a user sets his recorder to 6-hour mode. Under your scenario, every channel he tunes to would look like blocky garbage regardless of whether he hits the Record button (back when the analog tuners could actually be used, or with an STB connected to the line in).
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  #43  
08-22-2014, 09:57 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Oh, let me step back. I was referring to the way the ES15/ES20 records video, not the way it works as pass-thru. As a pass-thru tbc I found the ES20 only middling and easily outdone by my Toshiba's and ES15. If the ES15's dnr is turned off, and its default black levels properly set for North American output, I don't see any "filtering" artifacts. However, one has to remember that its y/c comb filter is always active on composite inputs, while its tbc is active on Line 1 only. If y/c filtering is performed, then obviously some "processing" is going on. But I wouldn't say that it produces artifacts -- I haven't seen any, anyway. I've seen a lot of tapes and pass a lot of tapes thru it. The only "artifacts" or disturbance I ever saw were on the tapes themselves, easily confirmed by hooking the vcr directly to a tv and observing it for yourself..

The ES20 generated floating hum bars due to poor electrical filtering of its cooling fan. I went through two ES20's with the same problem, and a later Panny (ES30?? Who the hell remembers all those numbers?) with the same problem. With the Toshiba DVD-R, you have to be careful how it's hooked up -- I had to power it thru an A.C. power conditioner that also runs my TV and a/v receiver, or there was visible background grainy "sputter" that showed up in dim scenes. But I've had other recorders and players that displayed the same effects when hooked up to lousy a.c. home circuits that need a good bath. It is not unusual. It's why many a/v junkies buy a.c. cleanup units. Overly noisy a.c. is common in apartment buildings and combo complexes.

I have to add that I've seen a lot of captures from Canopus and cheaper capture devices that look "great" at first to newcomers, until you see the edge noise, FM hash and herringbone effects, near-posterization, chroma problems, and other junk. Maybe my AIW's have something to do with that, because I just don't see so many disturbances with those AIW's. If glitches ever start showing up on a regular basis, I'm going to first suspect that one of my AIW's is beginning to run its course. Sure, the old AGP's aren't going to cruise through high speed games, but we're not talking about gaming. We're talking about VHS capture devices that were designed to operate OK with Win98 and slowpoke Pentium III's.

Ok, so that's just my $0.04. Sorry for the interruption.
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  #44  
08-22-2014, 11:25 PM
history1 history1 is offline
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Thanks everyone for your help. I bought an ES15 tonight. $100 on eBay. I guess they were much cheaper not that long ago. Since the sellers found out how much they were worth to preservationists they upped the price. Well I guess that's life. I'm going to see how it works.

Now about my frame TBC, my AVT-8710. I read somewhere on these forums or elsewhere to beware of the all-black version, only get the all-green version with black trim. I don't remember why, probably the black version has some problems. I have an all-black version. I got it from B&H, a reputable seller, and being so it's not a clone but the genuine product. Are those claims true?
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  #45  
08-23-2014, 07:37 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I paid $85 for my ES15. It arrived in prisitine condition. It had no remote, which I bought from another seller, so I actually paid more for mine altogether. And that was about 2 years ago.

B&H tracks its sales and inventory to spot products that have high return rates. How they adjust for these problems I don't know, but if they find that a product source supplier sends units that have high complaint rats, they stop buying from those suppliers. The last I heard from a long-time salesman who worked there, their shipping department inspects product packaging before they ship.

The way to test your AVT-8710 is the way everyone else does: use it. If your tape is copy-protected, the AVT should override most forms of copy protection used on retail VHS. It can sometimes (note, sometimes) override some forms of macrovision used on DVDs. But DVD protection has changed many times.

If my ES15 and others are anything to go by, the ES15 ignores most forms of Macrovision when used as pass-thru. The AVT would be needed if the ES15 fails to do that. Sometimes, defeating Macrovision will give a clean clear image but will not undo some of the side effects which appear as dropped frames or other frame-sync problems. Adding the AVT-8710 will usually repair those situations. if in doubt, use the AVT all the time. However, be aware that every component in a capture chain will affect the image to some extent.

In any case, observe this circuit in a capture setup:

player -> ES15 (line tbc) -> AVT-8710 (frame sync) -> capture device

Don't place a frame tbc like the AVT in the circuit before the signal goes thru a line tbc. The line tbc always comes before a frame tbc, not after. The reason for that is that a frame tbc doesn't repair any line sync, but it does send out all the lines in a frame at precisely the same time. If the line tbc then follows the frame tbc in the circuit, the line tbc won't see anything to fix.
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  #46  
08-24-2014, 12:07 AM
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Quote:
Quote:
Originally posted by history1:

The issues I am talking about concerns this unit being connected to my external TBC. In parts where there is defective video the video fields seperate at times. You can see an example of that in the attached snapshot "JVC & extern TBC error". This unit is kind of sensitive to defective video compared to my combo unit, with the external TBC. I absolutely need my external most of the time, since most of my videos need correcting that it can fix.
Posted by lordsmurf:

This sounds like a defective AVT-8710 TBC (CTB-100)
lordsmurf, do you think that it's known that an AVT-8710 can have this defect with VCRs? I'm thinking about getting a replacement. What if it happens in that one too? I also have other issues too when a VCR is hooked to it. When a VCR w/o a line TBC is not hooked up to it the picture is not at all wiggly. Then when I connect it to the AVT-8710, the picture is then wiggly. Not drastic but just a touch.
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  #47  
08-24-2014, 09:22 AM
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I would just get the TBC-1000 as the replacement, and forget about the AVT-8710. Even since 2012, I've been avoiding them myself. I just don't have time for that. I need gear that works.

Perhaps try the ES15 to AVT-8710 combo first. See how it interacts. It may be fine.

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  #48  
08-29-2014, 11:54 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I use the ES15 and/or AVT-8710 frequently -- although often the AVT just adds another processing component to the circuit and doesn't appear to be required. Depends. Does every VHS tape behave differently? You bet it does. Act accordingly, and remember that VHS capture is a lot like an exercise in defensive driving.

A while back I made some captures with the ES15 as pass-thru, using a copy protected retail tape. The tape also happens to be so bad that it has become a learning tool for various disturbances and color grading. It's probably one of the worst movie-to-tape transfers I ever owned. Not as bad as horrible nightmares from India, but by North American retail standards it's a thoroughly botched job. The retail version itself was made not from a film master, but from a tape master. The problems are unbelievable for something that had a price tag on it: spots, comets, dropouts, huge blotchy explosions of odd-shaped noises, projector punch holes, hair, ripples, streams of web-like simmering white threads, one frame with a dull orange thumbprint, and a serious distortion of the original Oscar-winning color work, etc., etc., etc.

So I've given up on this tape except as a learning tool. A recent DVD release was better, especially with the original color. The DVD doesn't have tape noise -- but the DVD has many of the same spots, blotches, projector holes, etc., as the VHS tape! The two demos linked below are examples of something I've had to learn from. The final output is just an exercise, so don't look for perfection or imagine that I'm satisfied. The demo illustrates the use of an ES15 for pass-thru and how the results could be cleaned up. I don't see ill effects from using the ES15. My AG-1980 wasn't available at the time these caps were made. I didn't use the AVT this time around, as the ES15 is what I was testing.

"A" and "B" are examples of trying to clean up bad chroma flicker. The "A" version is the original capture to YUY2 AVI via composite, encoded directly to MPEG with no additional processing. You can see the usual tape noise. The chroma flicker can be seen in bright areas, which alternately turn reddish, bluish, then greenish. A lot of debate over what caused this, but there are complaints at retail sites about this effect and on some movie forums. Folks say it's a Macrovision side effect. It gradually dissipates about 30 minutes into the tape. You can forget about a frame tbc correcting it -- with a frame tbc or my AG-1980 the flicker looks exactly the same. On the player I used, it's actually slightly less serious than players that oversharpen too much and pump saturation. Anti-flicker plugins didn't work (the U and V channels go contrast-crazy every few seconds). The "B" version is the clean-up.

By the way, the links posted are direct links to a paid "pro" account. You won't see a web page. All you'll see is your browser's download dialog window. No popups, no ads. Each clip = about 25MB. If you're using Internet Exploer, right-click and select "Save target as...".

A_flicker_samples_original.mpg
B_flicker_samples_after.mpg

"C" and "D" are examples of other damage control. There are 4 short scenes. Besides horrible color that varied from scene to scene, there are spots, blotches, projector punch holes, chroma bleed, dark halos, white stringy stuff and whitish flareups, the usual tape noise, etc. "D" is the clean-up.

C_defect_samples_original.mpg
D_defect_samples_after.mpg

Originally this was a noise demo, but here it's posted as results I got with the ES15 on a Macrovision tape. For those who care, the stats are:

Capture card: ATI All In Wonder 9600XT AGP to Huffyuv YUY2 lossless AVI.
VCR player: Panasonic PV-8664, composite out, cable=BlueJeansCable Belden 1695A, 1695A RCA audio
tbc: Panasonic DMR-ES15, s-video out, cable=BlueJeansCable YC2 s-video
Cleanup: Avisynth and VirtualDub
Encoder: TMPGEnc Plus 2.5

I purchased this tape in 1988 and played and captured it well over 30 times in testing various hardware. Overall, it's just shot to hell through use. It does show a couple of "wrinkle" frames that were permanently damaged by my former JVC 7600 and which were the devil to repair. This isn't to say that captures of this godawful tape don't look cleaner with my AG-1980. An experienced eye can catch some tbc bloopers in the original capture. But if the 1980 or s-video aren't around for some reason, well......
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  #49  
09-04-2014, 11:56 PM
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I received my ES15 yesterday and tested it today. I'm happy to say that it does exactly what I was hoping for it to do. My main problem was wiggly video, and this corrects it. There is not any video degradation in the end result, and it does what my JVC S-VHS VCR does. It does appear to work just like a line TBC. I haven't fully tested it but from what I've seen I am very satisfied with it. Thank you guys for helping me with the TBC situation!

I am planning to sell my JVC sometime soon, and in its place I may actually get a better regular VCR than the combo I have now. I don't want to get another S-VHS unit, at least right now. I am not satisfied with the audio quality of these. Defective video on my combo, those lines that go up and down the screen, and sometimes stay put right in the middle that can't be corrected with tracking, are so bad and white on my combo unit. Do you guys know of a quality VCR, with the kind of audio quality like on my combo unit, that lessons those lines so they don't look so bad? The lines are greatly minimized on my JVC, and I want a VCR that does the same thing.
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  #50  
09-05-2014, 06:47 AM
volksjager volksjager is offline
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try an AG-1980 - i have never had audio problems with those
i have had audio hiss on certain JVC's - usually it is particular to a tape.
but on a few i have had to adjust the control head or tape guides a little
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  #51  
09-05-2014, 07:01 AM
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Generally, an SVHS player allows s-video output directly, which will be cleaner and sharper and less "disturbed" chromatically than composite. I was disappointed myself with the 9911U, but JVC made better players in the 9600 and 9800 series -- if you can find one in good shape. My other former JVC's, which I used until they just couldn't run any more, were the 7600 and 9600. JVC isn't the only outfit that made SVHS machines. Panasonic had some good ones in 1996 -- the PV-S4670/S4672 series, which were forerunners of the pro AG series and two of which I still use with a tbc pass-thru. Later PV series were a step down for Panasonic, just as other makers were beginning to downgrade VCR's and develop DVD-R's. As you might be able to see from the samples I posted earlier, the later PV-8664's were stable players with composite output but made no special effort at noise reduction, as the "original' captures demonstrate.

There's always the AG-1970, AG-1980, and AG-5710. Some prosumer shops still rebuild and sell AG-1980's (not cheap). One such outfit often recommended is http://www.tgrantphoto.com/sales/. In your case, none of these high-end machines are likely to have the same distorted audio that you specify unless they're mistracking or have other problems.

No one recommends combo VCR's, not even combos made in the early 2000's. They were uniformly under par, designed for convenience and budget over quality. No major brand makes them today. New ones sold under the Magnavox, Panasonic, and Toshiba labels are actually made by Funai and have dreadful VHS players. Their DVD sections are fairly decent but no match for earlier dedicated DVD-R's and can't be used for pass-thru.
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  #52  
09-05-2014, 07:56 AM
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Thanks sanlyn for the info. I might try an AG-1980. Hope I would be satisfied with it.

The combo unit I have is actually a DVD recorder. It was specifically designed to dub tapes over. Original Wal-Mart cost was $400, so it was not cheap. It's actually a preety good unit, but these units do have a few problems. They can freeze and you would have to do a hard shutdown. I had two in the past, both of which had these problems. No problems yet from this unit.
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  #53  
09-05-2014, 08:41 AM
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Every combo or VHS player needs maintenance, regardless of price. The audio in your combo, at least according to your sample and your description of the image problems, sounds a lot like mistracking. Adding a hard drive to combos increases the price, of course. My Toshiba RD-XS34 recorders were DVD only, no tape play, at retail $500 each. The AG-1980 is still top of the hill for most purposes, if rebuilt or maintained by competent techs. The older SVHS "PV-S" series that I mentioned has similar tracking and image properties but no tbc. If Panasonic had not started making cheaper and more lightweight consumer VCR's after 1996, many more choices might have been available in lower cost players.
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09-19-2014, 12:38 PM
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I got an AG-1980 off TGrant Photo, but i'm not sure, there may be something wrong with it. I bought it refurbished, refurbished by an experienced tech of 20 years who tested it out for 3 hours before it was put up for sale. There is an ongoing line on the bottom of some of my home tapes. I could fix that by adjusting the tracking, but when that line goes away, another one begins to appear in the middle of the screen. I sent it in to a regular VCR repair place and it was fixed some, but not completely. He said he did the best he could. Is this line normal? On TGrant it said that the VCR was in top shape, ready for transferring. I don't see why this VCR is one of the best for transferring. My tapes play perfectly on my combo unit. I suppose TGrant also did their best at restoring this VCR.

I don't know, I am about ready to give up buying digitizing gear. I have bought so much and got rid of so much, all this after months effort. I can't get too perfect. I am disliking professional VCRs, I wish I can just stick to the simple stuff.
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  #55  
09-19-2014, 12:45 PM
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did you call Tgrant and complain?- vcr could have been damaged in shipping
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09-19-2014, 12:53 PM
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Not yet. I figured sending it to a local place would be much cheaper and hassle-free. I'll call them in an hour or so.
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09-19-2014, 01:29 PM
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i would not mention you had a local person look at it - that would probably void the warranty
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09-19-2014, 02:48 PM
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I called up TGrant. They are going to send me return information. When it returns the man is going to look at it, either fix it or swap it. I did have to tell them that a local person looked at it, but that didn't hurt anything in any way.
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05-22-2015, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
I use the ES15 and/or AVT-8710 frequently -- although often the AVT just adds another processing component to the circuit and doesn't appear to be required. Depends. Does every VHS tape behave differently? You bet it does. Act accordingly, and remember that VHS capture is a lot like an exercise in defensive driving.

A while back I made some captures with the ES15 as pass-thru, using a copy protected retail tape. The tape also happens to be so bad that it has become a learning tool for various disturbances and color grading. It's probably one of the worst movie-to-tape transfers I ever owned. Not as bad as horrible nightmares from India, but by North American retail standards it's a thoroughly botched job. The retail version itself was made not from a film master, but from a tape master. The problems are unbelievable for something that had a price tag on it: spots, comets, dropouts, huge blotchy explosions of odd-shaped noises, projector punch holes, hair, ripples, streams of web-like simmering white threads, one frame with a dull orange thumbprint, and a serious distortion of the original Oscar-winning color work, etc., etc., etc.

So I've given up on this tape except as a learning tool. A recent DVD release was better, especially with the original color. The DVD doesn't have tape noise -- but the DVD has many of the same spots, blotches, projector holes, etc., as the VHS tape! The two demos linked below are examples of something I've had to learn from. The final output is just an exercise, so don't look for perfection or imagine that I'm satisfied. The demo illustrates the use of an ES15 for pass-thru and how the results could be cleaned up. I don't see ill effects from using the ES15. My AG-1980 wasn't available at the time these caps were made. I didn't use the AVT this time around, as the ES15 is what I was testing.

"A" and "B" are examples of trying to clean up bad chroma flicker. The "A" version is the original capture to YUY2 AVI via composite, encoded directly to MPEG with no additional processing. You can see the usual tape noise. The chroma flicker can be seen in bright areas, which alternately turn reddish, bluish, then greenish. A lot of debate over what caused this, but there are complaints at retail sites about this effect and on some movie forums. Folks say it's a Macrovision side effect. It gradually dissipates about 30 minutes into the tape. You can forget about a frame tbc correcting it -- with a frame tbc or my AG-1980 the flicker looks exactly the same. On the player I used, it's actually slightly less serious than players that oversharpen too much and pump saturation. Anti-flicker plugins didn't work (the U and V channels go contrast-crazy every few seconds). The "B" version is the clean-up.

By the way, the links posted are direct links to a paid "pro" account. You won't see a web page. All you'll see is your browser's download dialog window. No popups, no ads. Each clip = about 25MB. If you're using Internet Exploer, right-click and select "Save target as...".

A_flicker_samples_original.mpg
B_flicker_samples_after.mpg

"C" and "D" are examples of other damage control. There are 4 short scenes. Besides horrible color that varied from scene to scene, there are spots, blotches, projector punch holes, chroma bleed, dark halos, white stringy stuff and whitish flareups, the usual tape noise, etc. "D" is the clean-up.

C_defect_samples_original.mpg
D_defect_samples_after.mpg

Originally this was a noise demo, but here it's posted as results I got with the ES15 on a Macrovision tape. For those who care, the stats are:

Capture card: ATI All In Wonder 9600XT AGP to Huffyuv YUY2 lossless AVI.
VCR player: Panasonic PV-8664, composite out, cable=BlueJeansCable Belden 1695A, 1695A RCA audio
tbc: Panasonic DMR-ES15, s-video out, cable=BlueJeansCable YC2 s-video
Cleanup: Avisynth and VirtualDub
Encoder: TMPGEnc Plus 2.5

I purchased this tape in 1988 and played and captured it well over 30 times in testing various hardware. Overall, it's just shot to hell through use. It does show a couple of "wrinkle" frames that were permanently damaged by my former JVC 7600 and which were the devil to repair. This isn't to say that captures of this godawful tape don't look cleaner with my AG-1980. An experienced eye can catch some tbc bloopers in the original capture. But if the 1980 or s-video aren't around for some reason, well......
Okay, some time back lordsmurf asked that I not use outside file servers if possible and to post the above samples in the forum. He asked twice, in fact. Well, I kept thinking I did it but I guess time slipped up on me and it was never done -- at least, I can't find the files attached anywhere in the forum and spent an hour looking for them.

Because the samples were referenced in other posts with MediaFire links, I'm attaching them to the forum here for current and future links. Moderators, feel free to remove these attachments if not appropriate.


Attached Files
File Type: mpg A_flicker_samples_original.mpg (26.11 MB, 41 downloads)
File Type: mpg B_flicker_samples_after.mpg (31.52 MB, 19 downloads)
File Type: mpg C_defect_samples_original.mpg (24.05 MB, 98 downloads)
File Type: mpg D_defect_samples_after.mpg (29.87 MB, 82 downloads)
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