Quantcast Leitch DPS575 vs. BrighteyeBE75 TBC test pattern - digitalFAQ Forum
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  #1  
05-23-2015, 09:56 PM
WaxCyl WaxCyl is offline
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Attached are JPG screen captures from my Leitch DPS575 vs BrighteyeBE75 using an analog test pattern.
Input is Panasonic BD player playing a test pattern DVD from S-video and Composite outputs.
SDI output is captured via Blackmagic Decklink PCIE card
I have done these for the benefit of member Jazz57 and anyone else interested.
I cant explain the fat chroma patterning of the first row of color bars for the DPS575 on S-video input.
This pattern is not present with non-colorbar input


Attached Images
File Type: jpg BE 75_Svid_FrameSync_On&Comb_ON.jpg (108.2 KB, 43 downloads)
File Type: jpg BE 75_Svid_FrameSyncOff&Comb_OFF.jpg (106.7 KB, 22 downloads)
File Type: jpg BE 75_Svid_FrameSyncOn&Comb_OFF.jpg (109.7 KB, 10 downloads)
File Type: jpg BE75_cmpst_FrameSync_OFF&Comb_OFF.jpg (144.0 KB, 8 downloads)
File Type: jpg BE75_cmpst_FrameSync_OFF&Comb_ON.jpg (151.6 KB, 9 downloads)
File Type: jpg BE75_cmpst_FrameSync_ON&Comb_OFF.jpg (133.2 KB, 8 downloads)
File Type: jpg BE75_cmpst_FrameSync_ON&Comb_ON.jpg (150.9 KB, 15 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_Cmpst_TBC_OFF&Comb_OFF.jpg (136.7 KB, 26 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_Cmpst_TBC_OFF&Comb_Y+C.jpg (134.6 KB, 14 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_Cmpst_TBC_ON&Comb_LUMA.jpg (140.6 KB, 21 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_Cmpst_TBC_ON&Comb_OFF.jpg (141.4 KB, 13 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_Svid_TBC_OFF&Comb_LUMA.jpg (166.7 KB, 22 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_Svid_TBC_OFF&Comb_OFF.jpg (165.3 KB, 19 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_Svid_TBC_OFF&Comb_Y+C.jpg (166.4 KB, 17 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_Svid_TBC_ON&Comb_OFF.jpg (165.7 KB, 22 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_Svid_TBC_ON&Comb_Y+C.jpg (167.0 KB, 32 downloads)
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  #2  
05-24-2015, 11:47 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Thanks for sharing. Any chance of samples showing the results you've gotten with videotapes?

Odd that the BE75's chroma has lower vertical resolution with S-Video than non-comb-filtered composite.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WaxCyl View Post
I cant explain the fat chroma patterning of the first row of color bars for the DPS575 on S-video input.
This pattern is not present with non-colorbar input
Bizarre!
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  #3  
05-24-2015, 06:27 PM
WaxCyl WaxCyl is offline
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I can certainly see what you mean.
I looked closer at original lossless images and I think it looks like luma vertical ringing. I'm not certain that the chroma is actually affected.
I have attached PSDs (lossless) for you to check out.
In future I think I will have to post all images lossless, I am surprised as my JPGs were set to 100% quality.

In the mean time I have a theory as to the cause of the other chroma problem.
If I am right I will have to repost!


Attached Images
File Type: psd BE 75_Svid_FrameSyncOff&Comb_OFF.psd (442.2 KB, 18 downloads)
File Type: psd BE75_cmpst_FrameSync_OFF&Comb_OFF.psd (630.8 KB, 13 downloads)
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  #4  
05-25-2015, 12:28 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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JPEG most often converts to 4:2:0.

Are you sure it's luma ringing and not chroma ringing? In Avisynth, Greyscale() vs UtoY() or VtoY() should let you see.
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  #5  
05-25-2015, 08:13 AM
WaxCyl WaxCyl is offline
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It takes a sharp edge to create 2 fine ring lines like that. Chroma doesn't have the resolution to create rings like that?
Anyway to confirm I just selected "desaturate" in XNview (what I view the images with..)

Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
JPEG most often converts to 4:2:0.

Are you sure it's luma ringing and not chroma ringing? In Avisynth, Greyscale() vs UtoY() or VtoY() should let you see.
On second thoughts check this out attached; Just Luma and Just Chroma done with Photoshop


Attached Images
File Type: psd BE 75_Svid_GreyScale.psd (376.3 KB, 7 downloads)
File Type: psd BE 75_Svid_NoLUMA.psd (197.7 KB, 7 downloads)
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  #6  
05-25-2015, 09:18 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaxCyl View Post
It takes a sharp edge to create 2 fine ring lines like that. Chroma doesn't have the resolution to create rings like that?
Chroma has full vertical resolution when the source is able to provide it (including LaserDisc). Your test pattern is downscaled BD, not DVD, right? Anyway, even if the source didn't have a sharp edge I'd say it would still be possible for the A/D to artificially create a sharp transition with ringing.

Quote:
Anyway to confirm I just selected "desaturate" in XNview (what I view the images with..)
It's working from the RGB-converted images, not just showing the Y data. I assume Photoshop has the same issue. You need to work from the actual video file to be sure.

By the way, PNG is the lossless format of choice for images since it can be viewed in web browsers, whereas PSD is proprietary.
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  #7  
05-25-2015, 06:44 PM
WaxCyl WaxCyl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
Chroma has full vertical resolution when the source is able to provide it (including LaserDisc). Your test pattern is downscaled BD, not DVD, right? Anyway, even if the source didn't have a sharp edge I'd say it would still be possible for the A/D to artificially create a sharp transition with ringing.
Disc is DVD played in BD player/recorder.
I think historically PAL has half the vertical color resolution but at least it can display the same color more than once

Quote:
It's working from the RGB-converted images, not just showing the Y data. I assume Photoshop has the same issue. You need to work from the actual video file to be sure.
The Black Magic Media express app actually outputs TGA still captures: presumably Photoshop converts via RGB.
I actually converted the NoLUMA image to Lab and then removed the L component.
Much easier than AVIsynth!
Quote:
By the way, PNG is the lossless format of choice for images since it can be viewed in web browsers, whereas PSD is proprietary.
OK , thanks , got it. The website would not accept TGA so I used what I know: PSD

Give me more time and hopefully I can produce more useful results, now I understand why the website prefers video samples, nevertheless the test patterns are not completely irrelevent.
The problem I have is I don't have a DVD player with analog outputs available in my video workshop without stealing the BD recorder from the family.
I have 2 faulty DV cams another working one but with no 1394 input and another working one but with a dead 1394 PCB ( Sony want $1000 for a replacement!)

Last edited by WaxCyl; 05-25-2015 at 06:47 PM. Reason: typo
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  #8  
05-25-2015, 09:05 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Doesn't TGA still just store RGB?
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  #9  
05-25-2015, 09:20 PM
WaxCyl WaxCyl is offline
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Yes, it is RGB only. I did not know that until now.
Anyway, now there are more things for me to get right.
Thanks for your guidance

I also forgot to take a snap of the source MPEG from the VOB.
This explains a lot.
Is not MPEG2 always 4:2:1 which means quarter vertical resolution?
I am capturing at 4:2:2 and Blackmagic certainly supports 4:4:4 so presumably the conversion to RGB doesn't lose a great deal in comparison to chroma subsampling.
What I really need is a Video sig-gen.
Anyway check out the artifacting in my self encoded source signal...


Attached Images
File Type: png OrigMPGexVOB.png (83.6 KB, 14 downloads)
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  #10  
06-03-2015, 08:00 PM
jazz57 jazz57 is offline
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Thanks for uploading those, WaxCyl! From what I've seen on my DPS-575 it just doesn't do well with composite material in TBC mode. The resolution is significantly reduced and I believe the comb filter is also disabled no matter what you select in the settings. They also mention a lower S/N in the spec. sheet.

I can only speculate that back in the day these were mainly used for syncing satellite feeds (the one I managed to procure was labeled as such) or other stable sources and no one really scrutinized the quality of the TBC mode.
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  #11  
06-03-2015, 09:21 PM
WaxCyl WaxCyl is offline
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Following on from the above discussion here is my second try.
This time the source material is a HD BD test pattern which is downscaled by the BD Recorder/player (Panasonic BW-500) to SD and output via composite and S-vid to the A-D converters. I hope it gives a clearer picture!
It obviously just confirms what we already know about the Leitch.
My PNGs have been converted by the site to JPGs. Why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz57 View Post
They also mention a lower S/N in the spec. sheet.
This is how I know it uses 8bit processing in TBC mode. 2Bits are lost by the TBC!


Attached Images
File Type: jpg BE75_CVBS_FrameSync_OFF&Comb_OFF.jpg (36.0 KB, 18 downloads)
File Type: jpg BE75_CVBS_FrameSync_OFF&Comb_ON.jpg (36.9 KB, 6 downloads)
File Type: jpg BE75_CVBS_FrameSync_ON&Comb_OFF.jpg (36.1 KB, 4 downloads)
File Type: jpg BE75_CVBS_FrameSync_ON&Comb_ON.jpg (36.9 KB, 7 downloads)
File Type: jpg BE75_Svid_FrameSync_OFF&Comb_OFF.jpg (36.7 KB, 6 downloads)
File Type: jpg BE75_Svid_FrameSync_OFF&Comb_ON.jpg (36.7 KB, 4 downloads)
File Type: jpg BE75_Svid_FrameSync_ON&Comb_OFF.jpg (36.7 KB, 4 downloads)
File Type: jpg BE75_Svid_FrameSync_ON&Comb_ON.jpg (36.7 KB, 8 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_CVBS_FrameSync_ON&Comb_Chroma.jpg (36.9 KB, 10 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_CVBS_FrameSync_ON&Comb_Luma.jpg (36.8 KB, 6 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_CVBS_FrameSync_ON&Comb_OFF.jpg (36.9 KB, 6 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_CVBS_FrameSync_ON&Comb_Y+C.jpg (36.9 KB, 6 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_CVBS_TBC_ON&Comb_Luma.jpg (35.4 KB, 9 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_CVBS_TBC_ON&Comb_OFF.jpg (35.5 KB, 6 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_Svid_FrameSync_ON&Comb_Luma.jpg (37.6 KB, 7 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_Svid_FrameSync_ON&Comb_OFF.jpg (37.6 KB, 4 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_Svid_TBC_ON&Comb_Luma.jpg (37.6 KB, 9 downloads)
File Type: jpg DPS575_Svid_TBC_ON&Comb_OFF.jpg (37.7 KB, 12 downloads)
File Type: jpg Source Image Down Scaled to match.jpg (36.0 KB, 11 downloads)
File Type: jpg OrigSourceImageXbluray.jpg (36.8 KB, 13 downloads)
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  #12  
06-03-2015, 10:47 PM
jazz57 jazz57 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaxCyl View Post
This is how I know it uses 8bit processing in TBC mode. 2Bits are lost by the TBC!
That's what I figured but they didn't admit it until the next model came out, the X75. By then the TBC was an optional feature.

How is the Brighteye in terms of stabilizing consumer tapes? Are you seeing any top curl or waviness?
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  #13  
06-04-2015, 01:57 AM
WaxCyl WaxCyl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jazz57 View Post
That's what I figured but they didn't admit it until the next model came out, the X75. By then the TBC was an optional feature.

How is the Brighteye in terms of stabilizing consumer tapes? Are you seeing any top curl or waviness?

It certainly works, with no noticable stability issues with any of my analog tape gear;
I have a Loewe SVHS VCR with LTBC(Panasonic NV-HS1000 OEM ) and midsumer Sony camcorders with LTBC .
I have no way of measuring the TBC performance but I have not noticed any difference to the DPS575

This time I worked how to keep the files as PNG.
The JPGs above had significant artifacting


Attached Images
File Type: png BE75_CVBS_FrameSync_OFF&Comb_OFF.png (292.3 KB, 14 downloads)
File Type: png BE75_CVBS_FrameSync_OFF&Comb_ON.png (293.8 KB, 8 downloads)
File Type: png BE75_CVBS_FrameSync_ON&Comb_OFF.png (298.3 KB, 5 downloads)
File Type: png BE75_CVBS_FrameSync_ON&Comb_ON.png (287.5 KB, 10 downloads)
File Type: png BE75_Svid_FrameSync_OFF&Comb_OFF.png (201.4 KB, 10 downloads)
File Type: png BE75_Svid_FrameSync_OFF&Comb_ON.png (199.1 KB, 6 downloads)
File Type: png BE75_Svid_FrameSync_ON&Comb_OFF.png (191.8 KB, 9 downloads)
File Type: png BE75_Svid_FrameSync_ON&Comb_ON.png (196.6 KB, 13 downloads)
File Type: png DPS575_CVBS_FrameSync_ON&Comb_Chroma.png (395.7 KB, 10 downloads)
File Type: png DPS575_CVBS_FrameSync_ON&Comb_Luma.png (311.9 KB, 6 downloads)
File Type: png DPS575_CVBS_FrameSync_ON&Comb_OFF.png (314.0 KB, 7 downloads)
File Type: png DPS575_CVBS_FrameSync_ON&Comb_Y+C.png (401.9 KB, 6 downloads)
File Type: png DPS575_CVBS_TBC_ON&Comb_Luma.png (417.2 KB, 8 downloads)
File Type: png DPS575_CVBS_TBC_ON&Comb_OFF.png (405.3 KB, 9 downloads)
File Type: png DPS575_Svid_FrameSync_ON&Comb_Luma.png (280.9 KB, 11 downloads)
File Type: png DPS575_Svid_FrameSync_ON&Comb_OFF.png (273.3 KB, 13 downloads)
File Type: png DPS575_Svid_TBC_ON&Comb_Luma.png (278.5 KB, 11 downloads)
File Type: png DPS575_Svid_TBC_ON&Comb_OFF.png (272.0 KB, 11 downloads)
File Type: png Source Image downscaled to match.png (59.8 KB, 12 downloads)
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  #14  
06-04-2015, 07:55 AM
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  #15  
02-08-2016, 02:31 PM
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Hey WaxCyl can you tell us a little bit more about how the TBC and frame sync work on BrightEye 75, Does it requires sync signal input at the REF IN input for both TBC and frame sync or for just one of them or no signal input required at all, I do know that sync input signal is for multi camera setup but wasn't sure if it is required for the TBC and frame sync functions to work correctly.
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  #16  
02-08-2016, 08:03 PM
WaxCyl WaxCyl is offline
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Device is self syncing. That is to say that if no external (genlock) signal is present the builtin sync is automagic.
The Brighteye BE25 is a similar model :though it does not convert analog HD like the BE75.
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  #17  
02-09-2016, 12:06 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WaxCyl View Post
Device is self syncing. That is to say that if no external (genlock) signal is present the builtin sync is automagic.
The Brighteye BE25 is a similar model :though it does not convert analog HD like the BE75.
The BE75 is an interesting device, What capture software can be used with it? looking forward to get one but the problem is I have to have an SDI ExpressCard 34 to connect to my laptop an adapter that costs as much as the device itself.
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  #18  
02-09-2016, 12:52 AM
WaxCyl WaxCyl is offline
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The device can only output SDI, 8 bit or 10 bit.
But I would call it the Rolls Royce of video A-D converters.

You are correct, your laptop sounds like it is a big problem.
Does anyone manufacture a laptop expresscard for SDI capture?

I used a Blackmagic Mini Recorder PCIE capture card to get it onto a desktop PC
I used the capture software (Media Express) that came with the Blackmagic PCIE card.
I was not confident that other capture software was handling the 10bit video properly.
I think it is a WDM capture device?

Had not seen this Teranex below before
It may not have a TBC, though. It does not specify whether consumer grade video cassettes can be used

Quote:
Teranex Mini - Analog to Optical 12G
Technical Specifications
Convert from analog video to 12G optical fiber and 12G-SDI. Convert incoming analog video signals to SD, HD, 6G and 12G-SDI. Ideal for converting your analog devices such as Betacam SP, VHS, set top boxes, gaming consoles and HDV cameras to incredible quality SD/HD/Ultra HD SDI video up to 2160p60.
Price $795 US
Connections Analog Video Input Component SD/HD, NTSC, PAL and S-Video.
Optical Fiber Connection LC connector, 1310 nanometer wavelength, single mode.
Fiber Video Output Automatically matches the SD and HD video input.
SDI Video Output Automatically matches the SD and HD video input.
Analog Audio Input 2 channels professional balanced analog audio via XLR connectors. Right XLR can be configured for timecode input.
AES/EBU Audio Input 4 channels professional 110Ω balanced digital audio via XLR connectors. Right XLR can be configured for timecode input. Multi Rate Support
Automatic switching between SD/HD/2K and 4K.
Updates and Configuration USB or Ethernet.
Re-Clocking Yes
SDI Compliance
SMPTE 292M, SMPTE 259M, SMPTE 296M, SMPTE 372M, SMPTE 424M-B, SMPTE 425M, SMPTE 297M for Optical Fiber SDI, SMPTE 2081-1, SMPTE 2081-10, SMPTE 2082-1, SMPTE 2082-10
SDI Video Rates
Automatically follows format of analog input.
SDI Video Sampling 4:2:2 and 4:4:4.
SDI Audio Sampling Television standard sample rate of 48 kHz and 24-bit.
SDI Color Precision YUV 4:2:2 and RGB 4:4:4 in HD, 2K and 4K.
SDI Color Space REC 601, REC 709
SDI Switching SDI output switchable between HD for composite, S-Video and Ultra HD for component HD.
SDI Format Support User selectable SD, HD, 12G-SDI. Follows data rate of input.
Analog Format Support
525/29.97 NTSC, 625/25 PAL,
720p50, 59.94, 60
1080i50, 59.94, 60
1080p23.98, 24, 25, 29.97, 30, 50, 59.94, 60
Analog Color Space REC 601, REC 709
Analog Color Precision 4:2:2
Software Control Mac OS X™ and Windows™ software upgrade via USB or Ethernet.
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  #19  
02-09-2016, 07:20 AM
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Quote:
Convert from analog video ...................... .............and HDV cameras
HDV can be 1: 1 read as / transferred as it is stored on the tapes.
Since you have not re-encode

HDV = Mpeg2 / 1440 x 1080 50i ............. TFF = top field

Can the Teranex remove jitter?
as the DMR ES10 or the Canopus NX

my card SDI + HDMI see picture


Attached Images
File Type: png Voreinstellungsassistent_2016-02-09_14-17-58.png (9.1 KB, 12 downloads)
File Type: jpg Blackmagic Design DeckLink Studio 2.jpg (58.0 KB, 13 downloads)
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  #20  
02-09-2016, 02:56 PM
WaxCyl WaxCyl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldwingfahrer View Post
HDV can be 1: 1 read as / transferred as it is stored on the tapes.
Since you have not re-encode

HDV = Mpeg2 / 1440 x 1080 50i ............. TFF = top field

Can the Teranex remove jitter?
as the DMR ES10 or the Canopus NX

my card SDI + HDMI see picture
Yes, I agree with you it would be pointless to capure analog video from a digital camera!
There must be a need for that in a broadcast setting?
I am referring to the potential use of the Teranex in capturing analog nonHD PAL/NTSC video cassettes.

Can the Teranex remove jitter? That was what I was asking. I think that is one that Blackmagic could answer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
The BE75 is an interesting device, What capture software can be used with it? looking forward to get one but the problem is I have to have an SDI ExpressCard 34 to connect to my laptop an adapter that costs as much as the device itself.
I see what you mean about this device:
Imperx VCE-HDEX02 HD-SDI ExpressCard/34 PCIe x1 Video Capture Card.
It is rather pricey - US$899 - compared to the Blackmagic PCIE desktop card.
It might be better to buy a new PC!
A laptop HDD may have trouble capturing uncompressed video without dropping frames anyway.
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