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  #1  
06-17-2015, 08:18 PM
AJAX1 AJAX1 is offline
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I have captured a large number of miniDV tapes using a firewire connection between camcorder and pc and used WinDV / Sceneanalyzer live, to capture native format DV files. I think its the right method as the original is already a digital source and so Im only doing a digital copy with exact the same characteristics as the original.

The captures went well , all of them with no drop frames and the quality is acceptable for miniDv quality 720x576 PAL interlaced. However even miniDV can benefit from filtering and enhancing as there are some noise ( namely in low light conditions ) , need for de shake, desinterlace ( for pc version ) and eventually Im not sure if it can result upscale and expansion to 16:9. I Intend to use VirtualDub for filtering.

I found a detailed description of filters to use and most usual settings for cleaning several media, analog and digital ( codecpage.com ) however I m not sure if the writing is actual and if the best filters are still the same.

Pc presentation -Filters recommended for DV

Smart deinterlacer ,General Convolution ,Xsharpen ,Temporal Smoother

Optional

De shake ,Warp Sharp filter ( crispening ), levels filter, HSV

I have also some general doubts and I would be grateful if someone could enlighten me

One problem is what format to use to minimize losses due to reencoding after filtering , is it better to work with an intermediary format like Huffyuv , MJPEG or should I work in the original DV format? After filtering I can eventually do some editing if limited with virtualdub, if not with with Sony Movie Studio Platinum

Is it better after filtering and editing to stay in DV format or choose for instance MP4 as a PC presentation format. If DV is an option a good DV codec will be needed for virtualdub ( could Cedocida DV codec be a good choice, there are better choices )

Desinterlacing should it be done to 25 or 50 ( what are the rational to select one or another)

Should the filters be applied to the complete film or for instance should some zones be split and specific filters used only on them ( for instance significant noise due to low light conditions that only affects a small section of the film)

Some filters need to be in specific order, what are the filters that are position dependent to have good results

I have heard a lot about spot remover could it be a better option for denoising

Does smart upscale double resolution and expansion to 16:9 result well with a miniDv source are there already mature solutions, sometimes display processors in some mid-range flat-screen TVs are substandard, generating visible motion artifacts and previous upscale could eventually provide better results. What will be the better solution to do so.

For Mpeg encoding (Dvd- Blu-ray)

Similar choices without desinterlacing

Probably will choose TMPGenc video mastering works and Sony DVD architect studio to encode and authoring DVD and Blu-rays. Does CCE Basic (cinema craft encoder) still exist ? does it provide better results .

Could a progressive MPEG 2 for computer playback be an alternative to DV or mp4 options

Thanks for your comments and advice's
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  #2  
06-18-2015, 07:47 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Never perform post-process filtering or image mods with lossy encoded video. Use losslesss huffyuv, Lagarith, or UT codec.

Why are you deinterlacing? Is this for web or PC-only playback?
BTW, The correct term is "deinterlace", not "desinterlace".
Most PC media players will deinterlace properly during play. For the internet, you have to deinterlace. Don't use someone's silly smart-deinterlacer. The smartest deinterlacer is Avisynth's QTGMC. An alternative with Virtualdub would be yadif, which is a decent filter.

Deinterlacing doubles the frame count and doubles the frame rate. Stnadeard defintion DVD and SD BluRay cannot be encoded at 50fps.

Segments of video that require different filters should be cut out and treated separately, then rejoined when you're finished.

Upsampling lower-resolution standard def video to HD sizes is almost always a waste of time. Take your chances there, but you should know exactly what you're doing and how different resizing methods affect video. All resizers are not alike. Many DV cams shoot 1080i widescreen video, some shoot standard definition.

DVD is interlaced and plays best that way on TV. DVD cannot be encoded for HD frame sizes. DVD is Standard Definbition only, either 4:3 or 16:9. If you encode 4:3 video sources for 16:9 display, the image will be distorted (stretched) and fuzzy. You can also encode to standard definition BluRay at higher bitrates, but SD BluRay for 720x576 PAL is also interlaced 25fps. Progressive 50p video is not valid for BluRay at either 720x576 or 1920x1080.

Last edited by sanlyn; 06-18-2015 at 08:44 AM.
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  #3  
06-18-2015, 10:39 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Add these considerations to my earlier comments, above. You seem confused about several things:

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX1 View Post
I have captured a large number of miniDV tapes using a firewire connection between camcorder and pc and used WinDV / Sceneanalyzer live, to capture native format DV files. I think its the right method as the original is already a digital source and so Im only doing a digital copy with exact the same characteristics as the original.
Of course the new version is the same as the original. It's a 1:1 copy, not a recording.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX1 View Post
eventually Im not sure if it can result upscale and expansion to 16:9. I Intend to use VirtualDub for filtering.
Is the original video 16:9? If it is, you're wasting your time upscaling SD video. Encoding for HD is more complicated than standard definition. If the original video is 4:3, you can't make a 16:9 video without distorting it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX1 View Post
I found a detailed description of filters to use and most usual settings for cleaning several media, analog and digital ( codecpage.com ) however I m not sure if the writing is actual and if the best filters are still the same.

Pc presentation -Filters recommended for DV

Smart deinterlacer ,General Convolution ,Xsharpen ,Temporal Smoother

Optional

De shake ,Warp Sharp filter ( crispening ), levels filter, HSV

I have also some general doubts and I would be grateful if someone could enlighten me
The filters depend on the problems you find in the video. A filter list from someone who has never seen your video is misleading, if not downright incorrect for a specific movie. It would be better to post a short sample of your unprocessed DV capture so members here can recommend a proper cleanup.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX1 View Post
One problem is what format to use to minimize losses due to reencoding after filtering , is it better to work with an intermediary format like Huffyuv , MJPEG or should I work in the original DV format? After filtering I can eventually do some editing if limited with virtualdub, if not with with Sony Movie Studio Platinum
If you want to minimize re-encoding losses after filtering, don't re-encode to DV or any other lossy format. Save the VirtualDub filtered video as YV12 with lossless Lagarith or UT video codec. Then put those results into your encoding or other programs. If you want to do some rejoining and further cut-edits in other software, work with the lossless video from VirtualDub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX1 View Post
Is it better after filtering and editing to stay in DV format or choose for instance MP4 as a PC presentation format. If DV is an option a good DV codec will be needed for virtualdub ( could Cedocida DV codec be a good choice, there are better choices )
VirtualDub does not filter in "DV format". It converts your DV to decoded, lossless standard AVI in an RGB colorspace. Save VDub's output as noted above (YV12, lossless Lagarith or UT lossless codec) for further work and encoding. Re-encoding to DV makes no sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX1 View Post
Desinterlacing should it be done to 25 or 50 ( what are the rational to select one or another)
Let's handle that later. If you want standard definition DVD or BD video, you can't use 50fps. If your video has 10,000 frames and 25fps, after proper deinterlacing it will have 20,000 frames at 50fps. Do not cut thye frame rate in half by using deinterlacers that drop alternate frames or use field blending -- your video will be damaged and in most cases will never play back correctly. Those types of deinterlacing cannot be repaired. Do't use your SONY software to deinterlace -- SONY does not do such a great job of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX1 View Post
Some filters need to be in specific order, what are the filters that are position dependent to have good results
Filter sequence depends on a video's problems and the specific filters used. Yes, in most cases the filtering sequence does matter. To ask which filters are sequence dependent can't be answered. There are more than 200 filters available for VirtualDub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX1 View Post
I have heard a lot about spot remover could it be a better option for denoising
No. VirtualDub's spot removers are disasters. There are better ways. But you'll have to learn a couple of things.

I didn't know DV had spots. Okay, maybe it does. I just don't recall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX1 View Post
Does smart upscale double resolution and expansion to 16:9 result well with a miniDv source are there already mature solutions, sometimes display processors in some mid-range flat-screen TVs are substandard, generating visible motion artifacts and previous upscale could eventually provide better results. What will be the better solution to do so.
Smart upscale gives inferior results to other methods that are far superior. It's a lot of work for very little return, and often looks worse than the original. Upscaling won't give better results as far as motion is concerned. Motion contol on TV sets varies from very poor, to so-so, to excellent. You can play with motion filters all you want, but much of the problem is due to the way DV is encoded and interlaced. Those problems should be corrected in post-processing. If the TV is at fault, you simply need a better TV. A poorly designed TV will give poor control and inferior playback on everything, not just your videos.

You keep mentioning "expansion" to 16:9. What is the aspect ratio of your MiniDV videos? Are they already 16:9? Are they 4:3? "16:9" is not a frame size, it's an aspect ratio. Standard definition video can be encoded for final output as either 16:9 or 4:3 display aspect ratio. The standard definition encoded frame size for both aspect ratios, whether it will be 16:9 or 4:3 playback, and whether you want DVD or BluRay, is PAL 720x576. You cannot use any other frame size for those encoded SD formats. The video should be interlaced, and the frame rate can only be 25fps.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX1 View Post
For Mpeg encoding (Dvd- Blu-ray)
standard definition PAL (16:9 or 4:3):
- DVD = 25fps, interlaced, 720x576, MPEG2, 48KHz audio
- SD BluRay = 25fps, interlaced, 720x576, MPEG2 or h264/AVC / MPEg-4/AVC, 48KHz audio
high definition BluRay:
- 1280x720 (16:9 playback only), 50fps, non-interlaced, MPEG2 or h264/AVC / MPEg-4/AVC, 48KHz audio
- 1440x1080 (for 4:3 source video on 16:9 display), 25fps, interlaced, MPEG2 or h264/AVC / MPEG-4/AVC, 48KHz audio.
- 1920x1080 (16:9 playback only), 25fps, interlaced, MPEG2 or h264/AVC / MPEg-4/AVC, 48KHz audio.

For some high definition frame sizes, there are progressive modes for film-source video (24fps or 23.976fps). Your miniDV's don't qualify for those formats.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX1 View Post
Similar choices without desinterlacing
Don't know what that question means. All of the formats listed above are interlaced except 720p.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX1 View Post
Probably will choose TMPGenc video mastering works and Sony DVD architect studio to encode and authoring DVD and Blu-rays. Does CCE Basic (cinema craft encoder) still exist ? does it provide better results .
CEE Basic was garbage years ago. It's no longer sold, for that reason. Why are you specifying TMPGEnc and SONY together? With either of them, your input should be lossless AVI from your VirtualDub filtering. TMPGEnc has visibly better MPEG and h264 encoding than SONY's crippled, scaled-down encoders. Maybe you'd want SONY just for the DVD/BluRay authoring step. Keep in mind that filtering, encoding, and authoring are three different processes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJAX1 View Post
Could a progressive MPEG 2 for computer playback be an alternative to DV or mp4 options
Yes. But why progressive for PC playback? Computer media players deinterlace during play, as well as any good quality TV can and often better. so you can save yourself some work. MPC-BE is a better choice than VLC or Windows Media Player.

I'd suggest taking one step at a time, or you'll have a nervous breakdown until you get a handle on various processing steps. Begin with opening your DV in VirtualDub. If you can read the video in VDub, you already have a DV codec installed. If not, install Cedocida. You can make a short sample of several seconds using VirtualDub's "direct stream copy" output mode, and post it here. Or you can make an un-reencoded DV sample in your SONY software, but don't apply any filters. We can't go into detail about filtering without a short sample of real, unfiltered video.
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  #4  
06-18-2015, 02:33 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Quote:
DVD cannot be encoded for HD frame sizes. DVD is Standard Definition only, either 4:3 or 16:9.
To this I would add a footnote that it is possible to create an "AVCHD on DVD" disc (on DVD media) that can contain HD material and menus that will play (in HD) on many Blu-ray players. The current version of TMPGenc Authoring Works has this capability and it works reasonably well. But the discs are limited to the DVD size, around 30 minutes of material depending on the bit rate you encode, and ARE NOT a standard video DVD that legacy DVD players will understand.

Some DV camcorders could record in a kludged 19x9 format, they often just cropped lines from the top/bottom of the 4x3 frame. Not a very satisfactory way to do it. However, Century Optics offered a 16x9 adapter that could be used with a 4x3 DV (or analog camcorder for that mater) camcorder to record a 16x9 aspect ratio image. (On DV it effectively changed the pixel aspect ratio.) Some HDV camcorders could record 16x9 aspect ratio SD.
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  #5  
06-18-2015, 04:14 PM
AJAX1 AJAX1 is offline
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Thank you so much sanlyn for your detailed answers.

For post-processing filtering the problem is fixed , I will use an intermediary lossless format like huffyuv.

However for editing I dont know if that type of problem arises or not. If I only need to do some cuts I could do it with virtualdub and do a direct stream copy without losses , however if I need more extensive editing and have to use a NLE like Sony Movie Studio or Premiere do they have the ability to edit natively with DV or Huffyuv ? how to limit losses in editing context?

Related to deinterlace ( sorry English is not my mother language and an error can occur ) I was only thinking to do so for PC playback obviously, but if as you say most PC players do a competent job deinterlacing perhaps there is no need to do it.

I initial thought trying QTGMC instead of smart deinterlace as I have read its much better ( for virtualdub your proposal I know is yadif ) but as I have no knowledge of avisynth script language I thought it could be more difficult and will be better trying first virtualdub filters. What is important to know is if PC players can present similar results to the ones we can get from Yadif with virtualdub or even QTGMC if its the case deinterlacing is a no problem.

My original videos are SD 4:3 Pal so according to your comments only HD 4:3 upscaling is possible, however it could be complicated and not worth the effort.

Related to the more usual filters to clean normal DV footage I understand that its film dependent, however having more then 250 films to clean I must find a sort of lowest common denominator, if not it will take forever.

The quality of my DV footage is relatively uniform with exceptions for noise in low light conditions and shaking in zoom and pan situations. I will post 2 small samples of normal video and video in low light conditions to have your comments.

After filtering you recommend saving to YV12 with lagarith or UT video codec , can it be done as Huffyuv or doesnt it support the YV12 colorspace

When I referred eventually using Spot remover for denoising I was referring to spot remover from Konstantin Khlopenkov and using noise reduction only, as I have saw some examples with very good results.

Related to upscaling methods other then smart upscale that give superior results can you detail a little more.

Mpeg encoding - according to your comments I will be doing DVD 25 fps, interlaced, 720x476 MPEG2 , 48 kHz audio and /or Blu-Ray 1440x1080 , 25fps interlaced , MPEG2, 48 kHz

Well related to the use of TMPGenc video mastering works and Sony DVD architect you already gave the answer when you said "TMPGenc gives superior encoding quality" , Its why I was thinking using it for encoding and as I have limited needs for authoring using Sony DVD architect as a complement only for authoring.

Related to the MPEG2 vs MP4 for PC playback are there specific advantages relative to one another, for this purpose?


Attached Files
File Type: avi sample1.avi (46.02 MB, 31 downloads)
File Type: avi sample2.avi (52.68 MB, 19 downloads)
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  #6  
06-18-2015, 09:55 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Thank you for the samples. Will look into them tonight.

As for spelling "desinterlace", don't worry about it. We see language crossups all the time. I'm certain a lot of USA natives use some of the worst English and spelling that anyone ever saw.
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  #7  
06-19-2015, 05:28 AM
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Source is already not so great

remain in YUV, RGB not in [Edius is okay]

Avisynth QTGMC and with Edius the intricacies

Difference, before ...... afterwards as GIF
www.ww-consulting.ch/DL/Vergleich.rar

On DVD or Bluray only in an emergency

small example
www.ww-consulting.ch/DL/Test.rar


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File Type: jpg EDIUS_2015-06-19_12-23-47.jpg (96.6 KB, 25 downloads)
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  #8  
06-19-2015, 07:19 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I'm sorry to report that I will be away from the forum for a few days because of a death in my family early this morning. My family lives in the Southern U.S. about 1100 miles from my location, so I will be traveling for a while.

I've looked over the samples. Both are workable. Sample 1 doesn't need conventional noise reduction, but appears soft because of line twitter and bad interlace combing (it almost looks like dot crawl, but it's just bad DV interlacing). The combing is easily corrected, but the line twitter is more difficult. You can see line twitter in the white-framed windows in the latter part of the sample. It can be corrected to a great extent, but not with VirtualDub.

Sample 2 has low light CMOS noise, but it can be cleaned up. I should caution that removing all of the noise from the video will result in obvious block noise (rough and nosy gradients) unless controlled and dithered film-type grain (not very visible in playback) is added back into the video after filtering.

I will have to explain this later, when I'm able to get back to my PC's. Meanwhile, other forum members might have several suggestions. I apologize for the delay.
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06-19-2015, 09:25 AM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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If you want to store deinterlaced/upscaled 4:3 video on BluRay (or Youtube for that matter), deinterlace with QTGMC and upscale to 960x720. Pad with 160 pixel pillar bars on the left and right to get a 1280x720 frame. If you are editing with a NLE, you can avoid intermediate re-encodes by using DebugMode Frameserver to feed Avisynth and your output encoder. For BluRay, using H.264 as opposed to MPEG-2 is acceptable.
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  #10  
06-19-2015, 11:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJRoadfan View Post
deinterlace with QTGMC and upscale to 960x720.
yes....exactly as I created it here with Avisynth.[sample1]
But then created in a project Edius 720 50p...see screen.

Testsample2 here now times in x264 but interlaced, MBAFF

possibly scaliert this clean a good scaler in TV

-- merged --

Source is already not so great

remain in YUV, RGB not in [Edius is okay]

Avisynth QTGMC and with Edius the intricacies

Difference, before ...... afterwards as GIF

On DVD or Bluray only in an emergency

small example


Attached Images
File Type: jpg Avisynth-to-edius.jpg (86.1 KB, 15 downloads)
Attached Files
File Type: rar Vergleich.rar (753.8 KB, 6 downloads)
File Type: rar Test.rar (22.51 MB, 5 downloads)
File Type: rar Sample_2_MBAff_Interlaced.rar (10.33 MB, 7 downloads)
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  #11  
06-19-2015, 12:56 PM
AJAX1 AJAX1 is offline
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Sanlyn my sincere condolences .

Thanks for all other comments and advice . It seems that despite the positive evolution of PC video players, QTCMC deinterlacer could still present an advantage as it seems to give a significant quality improvement . I will have to analyze in detail your comments and try to see if I can use QTCMC as I never have used Avisynth before.

I do not have Edius I have Sony movie studio and Premiere and an old version of Pinnacle studio but probably I will be able to do something similar.

Has I have told before my objective is to have a version for PC playback ( MP4 or MPEG2 I have still to decide with your help) and a DVD/ Blu-Ray version with or without upscaling.

I will try to see all your comments so as to have the maximum information to take the most correct decisions.
I have also to identify beyond the deinterlacer which other Filters may be useful and their right workflow

I will be out this weekend I will see in detail everything next week
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06-19-2015, 01:15 PM
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Sony is working internally in RGB
Edius internally in YUV

Pinnacle can not do anything with YUV [YUY2] not with streams in Lagarith and Huffyuv_MT.
see screen


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File Type: jpg Pinnacle Studio HD 15.jpg (28.2 KB, 15 downloads)
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  #13  
06-20-2015, 07:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
BTW, The correct term is "deinterlace", not "desinterlace".
"des" is either Spanish or Portugese prefix. So I peeked at his IP. And I'm right.

__________

codecpage.com has ancient cleaning methods listed, and several has nasty side effects. Don't do that. Some of the filter chains make me cringe. That won't be pretty at all.

DV > filter intermediary (Huffuyuv suggested) > archived output (high bitrate MPEG-2 suggested)

DV codecs can really adversely affect quality. Choose carefully. Most just use Canopus.

A raw deinterlace unfold fields, thus doubling framerate. But you get vibrations and jaggies. Simple methods like drop-frame drop a frame; it fixes vibration, but not jaggies. Quality methods like Yadif 2x (VLC playback) and QTGMC (encoding via Avisynth) are needed for quality deinterlacing.

I hate the term "capture", when it comes to DV. The DV format footage is transferred via IEEE1394/Firewire, not captured.

Even my Bluray players has no idea what to do with AVC-on-DVD discs. Yet it plays the same video as MP4 or MKV over the network just fine.

NJRoadfan describes upscaling perfectly ... but it's still not something I'd ever suggest doing. SD will never be HD, so there's not much point in doing it. More can go wrong than right.

Never use Pinnacle. It's junk. Premiere should be fine.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
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  #14  
06-24-2015, 11:25 PM
AJAX1 AJAX1 is offline
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miniDV cleaning and enhancing for PC playback and MPEG2 DVD/Blu-Ray

There are several situations that probably benefit from optimization

1- Use a correct workflow DV file >VirtualDub (DV Decompress ) (filtering ) > Intermediary lossless format or Frameserve >NLE edit Sony Movie Studio/ Premiere Pro >Frameserve or intermediary lossless format> Encoding(TMPGenc Authoring works) > Authoring

2- Select DV codec Decompressor , intermediary format ( lossless HuufYuv ? ) , colorspace ? and external (auxsetup ? ) or internal frameserve .

3- Select the best filters , settings and chain to use with virtualdub or Avisynth

The order indicated is not necessary the best one or pretend to be correct is only shown as an example

DV decompressor – DV codecs apparently have very different results , from what I have read apparently Canopus , Cedocida and Mainconcept have the best results, even if there are different opinions, but Canopus latest version is old, version 1.02 (99) found at videohelp and its only for playback. Perhaps the Grass Valley playback codec pack only for windows 7 and 8 (64 bits) includes a DV codec . Mainconcept codec I think is not free.

As Cedofita ( open source Video for Windows (VfW) DV-Type2 - 32 / 64 bits) is still supported, last version 0.2.3 (October 03, 2012) supports RGB,YUY2 and YV12 and is generally considered a good DV codec I tried it and I think the results are better than the ones I get from the internal virtualDub dv codec.

Formats / ColorSpace – conversions could introduce losses

DV (YUV 4.2.0)
VirtualDub and most filters must run in RGB colorspace ( internal DV codec apparently supports YV12)

NLE Editors as Premiere Pro and Sony movie Studio 13 platinum work internally with RGB . The so called smart rendering only for transitions or similar alterations could not be possible.Eventually Cyberlink Power Director could render only audio or video portions that have been modified

Frameserving between the different applications can have also limitations

I think that the best would be to use a lossless format and colorspace that could be used without conversions in all application involved and if possible frame serve from one to another but that doesn’t seem to be completely achievable and it could be necessary to find the best possible solution. Even if separate applications could be more specialized and give best individual results ,could it be interesting to reduce the apps number to avoid eventual additional conversions .

Cleaning the video

Im convinced that QTGMC for Avisynth is the best deinterlacer ( for a PC playback version ) the others filters I don’t have by now a definitive idea , could general convolution , xsharpen , temporal smoother be part of the solution for the samples I have posted. Even If I don’t get the best possible results I am also interested in a group of filters that can work as a general purpose cleaning solution for this type of files, a sort of lowest common denominator as I will have no time to find the best solution for every each one of a lot larger then 250.

If possible I would like to know your opinions’ about using VideoCleaner (supported on AvsPmod. Avisynth, VirtualDub) and also vReveal for cleaning miniDV. I m sure they will provide worse results but could they be interesting in a time / benefit perspective ? I will try to put a sample of the results I got with vReveal

Last edited by AJAX1; 06-24-2015 at 11:37 PM.
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  #15  
06-25-2015, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
....but Canopus latest version is old, version 1.02 (99) found at videohelp and its only for playback.
Hello
Here I have both Edius 6:08 and 7:50 installed on different PCs.
As a newer version of Canopus DV codec is included automatically.
see Screen

Working here for Edius 1.0

My first version was Edius 1.0, previously with the DV Storm and Storm video and Storm-Edit.
-----------------
postscript
Screen 2 = Edius 7:50


Attached Images
File Type: png VirtualDub 1.9.11 (build 32842release) by Avery Lee_2015-06-25_10-58-25.png (31.2 KB, 13 downloads)
File Type: png Edius 7.50 PC.png (69.8 KB, 7 downloads)

Last edited by Goldwingfahrer; 06-25-2015 at 04:31 AM.
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  #16  
06-25-2015, 07:23 AM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Even my Bluray players has no idea what to do with AVC-on-DVD discs. Yet it plays the same video as MP4 or MKV over the network just fine.
I was actually surprised that my Panasonic Blu-Ray player had no problems with a AVC DVD disc.

Quote:
NJRoadfan describes upscaling perfectly ... but it's still not something I'd ever suggest doing. SD will never be HD, so there's not much point in doing it. More can go wrong than right.
The only reason for the upscale is to get around the stupid limitations of players. None of them (including YouTube) seem to support 60p in SD resolutions, but have no problem with HD. The needless upscale also helps against YouTube's aggressive compression. It may not be true HD video, but there is still a net quality improvement.
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  #17  
07-01-2015, 04:27 PM
AJAX1 AJAX1 is offline
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I have made 3 different approaches to clean miniDv files. The conventional one using virtualdub and Avisynth an other with videocleaner (supported on AvsPmod. Avisynth, VirtualDub) and a third with a discontinued software vReveal.
I was almost sure that the results from the last two options would be probably worse than from the first approach however they involve a descending order of effort and I wanted to see if it was possible with less effort to get results close to the ones of the first option.

Version for Pc playback

Option 1 VirtualDub and Avisynth - used QTGMC to deinterlace with a simplified script

AviSource("c:\sample1.avi")
QTGMC( Preset="Slow" )
SelectEven()

Additional VirtualDub filters used - general convolution, xsharpen, temporal smother, levels and HSV.

For the sample with extra noise due to low light condition I tried also neat video

Options 2 and 3 The results I got even if probably not optimized in the context of own applications are clearly inferior to what I would be expecting.

I think I will retain the first option , however I will need to optimize the script for QTGMC ( I hope someone could provide or help with an optimized script) and to find out/ confirm the best filters to use in this situation and if the chain is correctly established. Your opinions are welcome.

I also will need to establish what will be the appropriate settings for MP4 or MPEG2 compressors to assure good playback quality.

DVD version
I will do the same filter approach after its optimized for PC playback without deinterlacing . I tried TMPGenc trial for encoding and was satisfied with the results , however as I intend to do DVD and Blu-Rays I will need TMPGenc video mastering works .As this application does a lot more then only mpeg encode , I was thinking in order to limit losses and eventual changes in colorspace to eventually use only this application to do everything else , edit , encode and authoring even if I have Sony movie studio and premiere pro that could be better for editing and Sony DVD architect that could be better for authoring ( my needs in editing and authoring are limited ) . If I can use only one product like TMPGenc video mastering works, I think I can have eventually benefits associated with limited reconversions and losses but Im not sure about it.

I would like to know you opinions about a good application workflow in order to limit recompressions , colorspace conversions , intermediary formats , losses in general, but with adequate characteristics to do a good job


Attached Files
File Type: avi QTGMC1a.avi (61.00 MB, 13 downloads)
File Type: avi QTGMC2a.avi (53.03 MB, 8 downloads)
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  #18  
07-01-2015, 10:58 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Not much noise in the new captures. Many bright spots exceed rgb 255. The daylight scene has black levels and gamma a bit too high, will look rather washed out on TV, and the clouds in the sky are beginning to edge out of clarity. Both videos are deinterlaced by discarding alternate frames, which gives horozintal motion problems in all formats -- more visible on TV, but you can see horizontal "double-image" judder on PC monitors during camera pans. On some TV's this will sometimes look more like skipping than judder.

Commercial PAL DVD's and SD PAL broadcast are interlaced or use some form of quasi-interlace (pulldown). You can get away with 25p on DVD, but not always, and motion is still a problem. Some authoring programs won't accept 25p for authoring to-spec DVD, some others will. Some authoring apps won' even tell you one way or another, they just re-encode non-compliant videos in their entirety.

Time to go over some basic BluRay encoding rules for the second (and maybe third) time:
720x576p standard def at 25fps is not compliant with standard def BluRay/AVCHD or DVD (16:9 or 4:3).
1280x720p HD at 25fps is not compliant with BluRay/AVCHD (16:9 only, 50 or 60 fps only).
1440x1080p HD at 25fps is not compliant with BluRay/AVCHD for 4:3 images, 16:9 display.
1920x1080p HD at 25fps is not compliant with BluRay/AVCHD (16:9 only).
Again, you can take your chances on encoding this way, or you can cheat and encode progressive video as interlaced when you want. Unfortunately, if you've discarded frames the original, judder will look worse.

Previously I prepared various encoded demos for each likely format but they're already archived. I do have on hand the earlier Sample1 in a PAL DVD version (720x576, 4:3 interlaced) and a 1440i version (interlaced) for BluRay. They won't play exactly alike as far as line twitter or other problems, and they vary in different players, but the DVD seems to have the cleanest motion in small moving objects and edges.

The 1440i version is zip'd because it's "regulation" encoded for BDMV as an .m2t file. m2t isn't an allowed upload extension, so I zip'd it for loading (even though zipping compressed video just changes the file name, it has little or no compression effect). My workflow was Avisynth -> VirtualDub filters (if any) -> TMPGenc encoder.

I can dig up the darker sample2 versions later. But as an HD upsample will show, there is no dark detail at all in much of the street, and motion in dark areas is blurred and smeared -- that's because underexposed video areas have little or no detail, just mostly random noise. Upscaling simply reveals how terrible it really is. I'd stay with standard def on the night scenes.


Attached Files
File Type: mpg Sample1_01C2_576i.mpg (10.87 MB, 18 downloads)
File Type: zip Sample1_00hdFl64_MF_1440i.zip (15.40 MB, 8 downloads)
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  #19  
07-01-2015, 11:52 PM
AJAX1 AJAX1 is offline
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The samples now posted are not new captures , they are only my first attempt to try to clean miniDV footage, using the previous samples posted some days ago for comparing purposes.
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  #20  
07-02-2015, 12:07 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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My fault, I should have been more specific. The video I submitted was based on your original post, not on the modified videos posted later.

I'll have more samples and ideas later today.
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