Quantcast S-VHS-C digitization project with Blackmagic Intensity? - digitalFAQ Forum
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  #1  
02-05-2016, 11:54 PM
vin97 vin97 is offline
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Hi!

My name is Vincent and I hope I'm in the right subforum.

I just purchased a HR-S9600EU from a well reviewed eBay seller to use in my digitization project.
I have a couple of S-VHS-C tapes recorded between 1997 and ~2004 with a Panasonic NV-SX30 (with built-in TBC) that I want to archive in the highest quality possible.

I will connect the VCR's RCA audio to my soundcard's (Asus Xonar D2PM) Line-In (3.5mm stereo headphone jack).
The capture card I will be using is a Blackmagic Intensity Pro that has HDMI and analogue inputs via breakout cable.

Depending on how good the video quality is, I will either add a ES-10 and/or TBC-100/AVT-8710 to my setup but first, I have a few questions.

Because the Intensity Pro doesn't have a dedicated S-Video input, I will either have to separate Y and C from S-Video and connect it to the breakout cable's YPbPr RCA connectors or convert it to HDMI first.
Given that the first option means longer travel and probably less electrical shielding for the analogue signal, I wonder if this cheaper route might give inferior quality compared to the second option.
Do you think this is true or are the differences negligible?
My next question is, where in europe can I find short, high quality RCA and S-Video cables and of course a simple S-Video Y/C separator?
...Pretty hard to tell quality from pictures alone.

That's all for now.

-- merged --

Small addition: A plug with male connectors on both sides would be ideal as an S-Video Y/C separator in my case (alternatively, male S-Video to female RCA).

Also, concerning my first question, I am mainly worried about EMI coming from PC components that could affect the Blackmagic's ADCs and the poorly shielded breakout cable).
The soundcard has an EMI shield which the Blackmagic doesn't have.
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  #2  
02-06-2016, 02:52 AM
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JVC HR-S9600 ---> DMR EH65 [or EH595] HDMI out to
HDMI Splitter -----> USB3 Shuttle [or Intensity per]

I suppose most of VHS-C one of the Panasonic NV V8000 or one of the great JVC BR-S522 / 822 models.

Pana DMR ES10 I take only in low bands.
I need very rarely.

The AVT-8710 only if I disc reading with Sony Vegas because agree the levels [16/235]

There is a cable S-Video to Intensity pro
I had itself earlier this card see picture


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File Type: jpg S_Video_intensity.jpg (35.4 KB, 29 downloads)
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  #3  
02-06-2016, 05:21 AM
vin97 vin97 is offline
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I already have this VHS-C to VHS adapter (in an older version where the small edge was not red) to use with the HR-S9600.
If this causes test VHS-Cs to get eaten, I would respool the tapes into VHS shells.

I am not so sure what the EH65's role is in your suggested setup.
If it's just for S-Video to HDMI conversion, a small dedicated adapter/converter would be cheaper or are there actually significant differences between A/D converters?
I was thinking of the ES-10 because of it's anti-tearing function.

I don't understand your point on the AVT-8710 (german would be ok for me).


Yes, such a cable would do the job. It's just pretty damn hard to find a S-Video to RCA breakout cable or adapter in european (online) shops.

Last edited by vin97; 02-06-2016 at 05:42 AM.
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  #4  
02-06-2016, 06:25 AM
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Quote:
I am not so sure what the EH65's role is in your suggested setup.
the signal goes out in digital
at ES 10 analog only

I know many BM cards but with no good for the analog part with respect to jitter.

If the signal but the ES10 it's okay
Try it


I have only the expensive Studio 2 and the shuttle USB3

Matching cable there a dime a dozen
come for coffee and we try it;-)


http://www.ebay.de/itm/Hama-S-Video-...-/400712497212

http://www.amazon.de/Hama-Video-Kabe.../dp/B00006JDOH

Quote:
AVT-8710
PAL AVT-8710 TBC tests (12/2015) in Europe
Test comparison: AVT8710 + Canopus NX + DMR EH65
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  #5  
02-06-2016, 09:13 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vin97 View Post
I am not so sure what the EH65's role is in your suggested setup.
If it's just for S-Video to HDMI conversion, a small dedicated adapter/converter would be cheaper or are there actually significant differences between A/D converters?
There are massive differences between what you get out of a cheapo Chinese-designed standalone analog-to-HDMI box compared to a proper conversion done with something like the suggested Panasonic. The engineers who made the DVD recorder actually know how to not destroy a video signal.

Quote:
It's just pretty damn hard to find a S-Video to RCA breakout cable or adapter in european (online) shops.
You already have the Blackmagic card? My IP4K came with the cable you're talking about, but apparently the original didn't include it.

The original is also even worse for analog tape capture. By all reports, a TBC is absolutely required. I hope you bought the capture card for other purposes, because if you got it for VHS capture you wasted your money.

https://youtu.be/SFpkNUoq-ac

In the comments he says the JVC's TBC is insufficient for "bad tapes" with the Intensity Pro.

Last edited by msgohan; 02-06-2016 at 09:28 AM.
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  #6  
02-06-2016, 04:35 PM
vin97 vin97 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
There are massive differences between what you get out of a cheapo Chinese-designed standalone analog-to-HDMI box compared to a proper conversion done with something like the suggested Panasonic. The engineers who made the DVD recorder actually know how to not destroy a video signal.
Good to know that. I thought as long as the converters don't apply any filters, scalers or do other video-processing, the results would be the same given that ADCs are pretty standard components.

I will keep my Intensity Pro but the analogue inputs are definitely not an option anymore.
As long as the video signal is digital and properly stabilized, the results should be the same regardless of which capture card I use (correct me if I'm wrong).

So, does the EH65 have the same anti-tearing functionality for which the ES-10 is so famous and does it apply any other filters to the video (noise-reduction, color correction, etc.)?
Will I still need an external TBC (AVT-8710 or TBC-100) to prevent dropped frames and reduce jitter or does the EH65 already take care of that?
I read that the AVT-8710 brightens the image. Is this a problem or can Avisynth filters easily take care of this post recording?
Could I avoid this by grabbing the signal directly from the TBC-100 and bypassing the AVT's ProcAmps or is it inherent to the TBC-100?

Last edited by vin97; 02-06-2016 at 05:16 PM.
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  #7  
02-06-2016, 05:34 PM
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Quote:
So, does the EH65 have the same anti-tearing functionality for which the ES-10 is
no

1.DMR ES10
2.Canopus NX
3.DMR EH65 [or EH595 / 585]

se screen


contribution 548
http://forum.gleitz.info/showthread....er-HDMI/page55

Here I have the AVT-8710 + Datavideo TBC-1000 and DMR EH65 + EH595.
Mostly I work with the EH65 or with the Canopus NX

Quote:
I read that the AVT-8710 brightens the image.
Yes but only in Edius because the color space as 0-255 is recognized instead in 16-235
you can adjust in the post

In Sony Vegas pro 13 the level is correct.


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  #8  
02-06-2016, 08:29 PM
vin97 vin97 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Goldwingfahrer View Post
1.DMR ES10
2.Canopus NX
3.DMR EH65 [or EH595 / 585]
So, the EH65 has the same functions but not as advanced?
Are they optional or always on?
I would test my tapes and only if needed, would I put an ES-10 before the EH65 to correct larger picture errors.

Do you suggest digitizing and muxing the VCR's audio into HDMI by connecting it to the EH65 or should I stick with my soundcard for sound digitization?

Maybe I missed something but I still don't know if the AVT-8710/TBC-100 is absolutely necessary to avoid dropped frames when capturing from HDMI or if this is automatically done (well enough) by the EH65?

The A/V streams will go through AviSynth via DirectShow and then into VirtualDub (or directly into ffmpeg) for FFV1+PCM encoding (as weave-deinterlaced 576p25 AVI).
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  #9  
02-06-2016, 09:30 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I've seen many people devise many ways of re-routing video, but this is one of the more creative designs. From analog to digital to analog to digital (I forget how many times), and then...what, weave-deinterlaced (whatever that is) ? ? ?
I thought Weave was part of the procedure used to re-interlace. Obviously you don't mean "blend-deinterlace", which would permanently ruin your video. You haven't said why you're deinterlacing. Why not use QTGMC for that after capture? What other post-processing do you plan to do, and what do you want for final output formats?

All of the testing of these components done over previous years for specific features is being challenged here. Can you show us samples of some of your results to illustrate what works and what doesn't? We'd love to see concrete examples of these new test results. If you would, submit only unaltered short cuts from original sample captures.

I don't think you can effectively correct color with a DVD recorder. Why don't you use a proc amp? It seems to be one of the few things you're missing.

Stick with your sound card for digitizing audio, if that's what your capture or recording device wants. Consult the user manual.

I believe Profigold, Audioquest and QED make high quality analog and digital connection cables of every type, and they receive good reviews and praise for excellent performance in the UK and Europe. I use Audioquest and QED myself for several years now, but haven't been able to buy Profigold in the U.S. lately. Currently 3 meters of Audioquest Pearl HDMI cable goes at the bargain price of only about 50 euros. QED and Profigold would cost more, but not by much.

Last edited by sanlyn; 02-06-2016 at 10:02 PM.
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  #10  
02-06-2016, 10:28 PM
vin97 vin97 is offline
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Well, that would be worst case scenario.
Ideally, I want to go VCR->EH65->Blackmagic.
But if I need the TBC-100/AVT-8710 to avoid dropped frames or the ES-10 for it's more advanced video correcting functions, it will get a little messy.
I have read a couple of threads and the setup for such a scenario that was suggested was
VCR->ES-10->TBC-100/AVT->HDMI converter (EH65 in my case)->Capture card.

Ah, sorry, I meant interlaced video (well, progressive video with interlaced frames) that was losslessly created by Weave from the 576i50 source video.
I will use QTGMC but I will also keep the lossless files interlaced as 576p25 for compatibilty reasons.
BTW, is there a Avisynth function that outputs these interlaced videos properly (separate fields, stretch half-frames to full-frames, alternatingly replace even/uneven lines with black, playback full frames at 50fps)?

As I said, my final output will be FFV1 and PCM in AVI and I want to do as few post-processing as possible.

I wanted to do color correction in post or in avisynth while recording.
I thought proper ProcAmps that offer significant advantages over software-CC were very expensive (> 1000 bucks)?

Thanks for the cable suggestion!

I will definitely keep you updated with samples once the VCR has arrived.
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  #11  
02-07-2016, 03:03 AM
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but take the AVT-8710 -----> DMR EH65 as passthrough
Front entrance V + A .... output HDMI

without this EH65 I have the AVT-8710 direct go to the DAC 7
output SDI

FFV1 = a solution for the museum
for us enough Lagarith
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FFV1


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  #12  
02-07-2016, 07:39 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vin97 View Post
Ideally, I want to go VCR->EH65->Blackmagic.
But if I need the TBC-100/AVT-8710 to avoid dropped frames or the ES-10 for it's more advanced video correcting functions, it will get a little messy.
I have read a couple of threads and the setup for such a scenario that was suggested was
VCR->ES-10->TBC-100/AVT->HDMI converter (EH65 in my case)->Capture card.
Because you are using a capture device that is not recommended for VHS capture, I suppose the messy way is the way you are forced to go.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vin97 View Post
Ah, sorry, I meant interlaced video (well, progressive video with interlaced frames) that was losslessly created by Weave from the 576i50 source video.
There is no such thing as progressive video with interlaced frames. Video is either interlaced or progressive, not both. I think you're confusing interlaced video with the way it is displayed by different devices. I also think you're buying into Black Magic's deceptive marketing hype of notating 25fps interlaced PAL as "576i50". Interlaced PAL plays at 50 fields per second, not 50 frames per second.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vin97 View Post
I will use QTGMC but I will also keep the lossless files interlaced as 576p25 for compatibilty reasons.
576p is not interlaced.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vin97 View Post
BTW, is there a Avisynth function that outputs these interlaced videos properly (separate fields, stretch half-frames to full-frames, alternatingly replace even/uneven lines with black, playback full frames at 50fps)?
I have no idea what you're asking. QTGMC, yadif, and Bob() are three filters that will do all that, but none of them convert even/uneven scanlines to black. Why would you want to do that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vin97 View Post
As I said, my final output will be FFV1 and PCM in AVI and I want to do as few post-processing as possible.
That's up to you. I thought your first post stated that you wanted to get the highest quality possible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vin97 View Post
I wanted to do color correction in post or in avisynth while recording.
You can't do anything in Avisynth while recording.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vin97 View Post
I thought proper ProcAmps that offer significant advantages over software-CC were very expensive (> 1000 bucks)?
The SignVideo PA-100 is a highly favored lab-quality proc amp that originally sold new for less than $500. It sells used for less.

Last edited by sanlyn; 02-07-2016 at 07:55 AM.
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  #13  
02-08-2016, 08:45 PM
vin97 vin97 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Because you are using a capture device that is not recommended for VHS capture, I suppose the messy way is the way you are forced to go.
I know that the Intensity Pro is a buggy card but it is just flexible enough to work in my application.
Does adding the AVT to the setup degrade picture quality?
If not, then I have no problem with a slightly more messy setup.


Ok, please check if I got it right this time
By 'progressive video with interlaced frames' I mean 576p25 video that has been created by applying Weave to the 576i50 source (that's what I was trying to describe by 'weave-deinterlaced 576p25').
This will create combing (mice teeth) in some situations because drastically different fields will be merged into a single frame.
QTGMC or yadif will remove those artefacts but this process is inherently lossy, so I decided to keep the original files as backup.
I was looking to playback the original files in such a way that they are displayed similar to how they would on a PAL-CRT with sequential field playback at 50Hz, so that two fields are never perceived at once.
I thought that this would mean no mice teeth.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
That's up to you. I thought your first post stated that you wanted to get the highest quality possible.
Which codecs would you suggest? Aren't PCM and FFV1 both lossless codecs?
I am not particularly skilled in color correction and general video editing, so I fear I would do more damage than good in post.

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Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
You can't do anything in Avisynth while recording.
Really?
I wanted to do it as described here.
Of course I would only use functions that are fast enough to run in realtime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
The SignVideo PA-100 is a highly favored lab-quality proc amp that originally sold new for less than $500. It sells used for less.
Alright, if I find one cheap enough, I will get one, otherwise software will have to do.
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02-08-2016, 10:18 PM
vin97 vin97 is offline
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Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Stick with your sound card for digitizing audio, if that's what your capture or recording device wants. Consult the user manual.
The question is whether I should digitize the audio with the EH65 and connect it to my soundcard via an optical cable or just directly connect the analogue audio from the VCR to my Xonar D2 soundcard via RCA and digitize it there.

Last edited by vin97; 02-08-2016 at 10:28 PM.
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  #15  
02-09-2016, 01:56 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vin97 View Post
Does adding the AVT to the setup degrade picture quality?
Everything added in will "color" the signal to some degree. To answer your earlier question, you don't need the AVT when capturing from a Panasonic DVD recorder via HDMI, anyway. The DVD recorder does TBC & frame sync itself.

Quote:
By 'progressive video with interlaced frames' I mean 576p25 video that has been created by applying Weave to the 576i50 source (that's what I was trying to describe by 'weave-deinterlaced 576p25').
You're just describing how 576i50 aka 576i25 is normally displayed on a computer. That's how a capture card will output a file, without any additional "weave" step by you. The alternative, 288p50 separated-fields, is rarely used.

Quote:
I was looking to playback the original files in such a way that they are displayed similar to how they would on a PAL-CRT with sequential field playback at 50Hz, so that two fields are never perceived at once.
The closest would be CRT emulation. Some people think it looks better with certain content than deinterlacing, but it's a matter of taste. Just inserting black fields will not be like viewing on a CRT.

Quote:
I wanted to do it as described here.
Of course I would only use functions that are fast enough to run in realtime.
That doesn't capture the video; it only displays it. In theory you could pair it with an Avisynth filter that writes the output of the script to an AVI file, but it's a bad idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vin97 View Post
The question is whether I should digitize the audio with the EH65 and connect it to my soundcard via an optical cable or just directly connect the analogue audio from the VCR to my Xonar D2 soundcard via RCA and digitize it there.
I doubt there would be any perceivable quality benefit to using your sound card, and it could introduce sync issues. Why would you connect the EH65 via an optical cable? HDMI carries audio.
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02-09-2016, 03:40 PM
vin97 vin97 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
Everything added in will "color" the signal to some degree. To answer your earlier question, you don't need the AVT when capturing from a Panasonic DVD recorder via HDMI, anyway. The DVD recorder does TBC & frame sync itself.
Nice 200 bucks less to spend.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
You're just describing how 576i50 aka 576i25 is normally displayed on a computer. That's how a capture card will output a file, without any additional "weave" step by you. The alternative, 288p50 separated-fields, is rarely used.
The Blackmagic automatically uses weave on interlaced inputs and I guess what I originally wanted was just a conversion to 576i50.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
The closest would be CRT emulation. Some people think it looks better with certain content than deinterlacing, but it's a matter of taste. Just inserting black fields will not be like viewing on a CRT.
Ok, thanks for clarifying that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
That doesn't capture the video; it only displays it. In theory you could pair it with an Avisynth filter that writes the output of the script to an AVI file, but it's a bad idea.
I wanted to read the Avisynth script in ffmpeg or VirtualDub and encode to an AVI file.
It is not absolutely necessary for me but I'm still interested in why you think it's a bad idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
I doubt there would be any perceivable quality benefit to using your sound card, and it could introduce sync issues. Why would you connect the EH65 via an optical cable? HDMI carries audio.
The Blackmagic has that stupid bug where you cannot capture audio and video at the same time unless you use their recording software (that only supports MJPEG and uncompressed YUV).
So, I have to use my soundcard. It's really just about where the digitization should be done.
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  #17  
02-09-2016, 05:18 PM
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Quote:
The Blackmagic has that stupid bug where you cannot capture audio and video at the same time unless you use their recording software (that only supports MJPEG and uncompressed YUV).
then capture it with VDub
Here is a brief example
shuttle USB3
Old Feeder [VHS] ------> TBC1000 ----> analog in at Shuttle USB3

see txt


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  #18  
02-09-2016, 05:30 PM
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The JVC HR-S9600 is one of the best VCRs aroudn, but JVC decks hate compact formats (VHS-C, SVHS-C). They have a bad tendency to eat the tape. And if the tapes are EP recordings, the problem gets worse. Panasonic AG-1980P decks are best for the compact formats, and for EP mode recordings.

At very least, the adapter you have should be excellent. But again, only for Panasonics.

Re-spool may be required for JVC use.

The Blackmagic cards have a severe issue with SD footage, especially VHS-based formats. The main issue is unreported dropped frames, but there are several. It's again the wrong tool for the task.

You need an external TBC for frame syncing (signal stabilization). Externals clean the signal, while the internal only clean the image quality. You need both.

If using the ES10 for anti-tearing, the external TBC needs to be removed from the chain, and internal TBC disabled. But only use the ES10 when tearing is present. It harms the signal as well (levels, posterization, etc), and is best suited for "least worst" scenarios (ie, to fix tearing, as tearing is far worse than the color quality issues).

That said, the AVT-8710, just before the capture, may be useful if you really need the minimal proc amp.

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  #19  
02-09-2016, 10:44 PM
vin97 vin97 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Re-spool may be required for JVC use.
I was planning on doing that.
Are there any particularly good VHS shells you can recommend?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The Blackmagic cards have a severe issue with SD footage, especially VHS-based formats. The main issue is unreported dropped frames, but there are several. It's again the wrong tool for the task.

You need an external TBC for frame syncing (signal stabilization). Externals clean the signal, while the internal only clean the image quality. You need both.

If using the ES10 for anti-tearing, the external TBC needs to be removed from the chain, and internal TBC disabled. But only use the ES10 when tearing is present. It harms the signal as well (levels, posterization, etc), and is best suited for "least worst" scenarios (ie, to fix tearing, as tearing is far worse than the color quality issues).

That said, the AVT-8710, just before the capture, may be useful if you really need the minimal proc amp.
If I get dropped frames (via HDMI) or a lot of tearing, I will add an AVT or ES-10 to my setup.
But I'm optimistic that I won't need them.

@Goldwingfahrer:
Do I need the splitter because the EH65 has HDCP?
If so, I've got this ViewHD HDMI splitter that removes HDCP.
Is it suitable or are there other ones you recommend?

Last edited by vin97; 02-09-2016 at 10:59 PM.
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  #20  
02-10-2016, 01:53 AM
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Quote:
If so, I've got this ViewHD HDMI splitter that removes HDCP.
try out
but looks like my Splitter

Post 39
No.2 and 3 are okay
http://forum.gleitz.info/showthread....=hdmi+splitter
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