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04-03-2016, 02:04 PM
K150 K150 is offline
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Hi,

I'm in the process of converting VHS tapes to DVD, and then re-encoding them to h264 on the computer.

I'm mostly done, but I'm wondering if I used a good VCR for the job. I have the following VCRs, from oldest to newest. All are 4 head HiFi with composite outputs.

Sharp VC-H64C from the mid 80s. Manual tracking. Decent number of hours on it. Fully functional.

X2 Sony SLV-750HF from the early 90s. Tons of hours on both units, but were still showing good audio/video. Both are broken, with failed supply loading gears. I think these are probably the best VCRs I have, if they worked.

JVC HR-VP58U from around 2000. Not many hours. Still works fine.

JVC HR-J692U from maybe 2003 or so. Almost brand new.

I used the newest JVC for most of the tape conversions so far, and it seemed to do a decent job. Only downside is it was made in the dying era of VHS, so it seems cheaply made.

But the main question I have is a lot of these tapes were recorded using the Sonys, should I bother fixing them and would the picture improve much? Going from memory they seemed to have better auto tracking than the two JVCs, which could be because the tapes were recorded on them (in EP mode no less).

I'm not looking for best possible results, just the best results I could obtain with the VCRs I currently have.


Thanks so much!
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  #2  
04-03-2016, 03:26 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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In general, a tape will play better, tracking wise, on the machine on which it was recorded, especially at EP/SLP speeds. However, over time that can change as machines age and wear and drift out of alignment. VHS EP/SLP was never very good, and recollection of quality may be colored by the passage of time and technology advances. (A VHS tape that one remembers looked good in a 27" SD TV in 1995 generally looks pretty bad on a 55" HD set today when viewed in the same room.)

There is a separate thread that discusses the machines recommended for capture. Capturing via an s-video connection is generally superior to composite video.

As to the best VCR, there is the theoretically best when they were new, and than there is the best today that is a more pragmatic assessment that would reflect the cumulative results of production variations, age, wear, and abuse. Repairing 20+ year old consumer VCRs is problematic at best, not the least of it being finding parts and technicians that still working on them. Generally it is not worth it if the machine has died.

The first question is are you satisfied with the results you have obtained so far? If you are, the VCR you used was good enough, declare victory, and move on to something fun. But I gather not since you have posed the question. The next question would be how much are you wiling to invest (in time and money) to obtain better copies? A good VCR for capture of EP/SPL tapes runs about $300 these days when you can find one.

Depending on the number of tapes you have, it may be worth sending them out to a competent service rather than spending the time and money to do it your self. One approach to help in the decision process is to do a comparative assessment. Pick a tape you have already done, send it out and then compare the results to your conversion.
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  #3  
04-03-2016, 03:48 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Welcome to digitalfaq.

To add to the wise and accurate comments just posted by dpalomaki

Quote:
Originally Posted by K150 View Post
I'm in the process of converting VHS tapes to DVD, and then re-encoding them to h264 on the computer.
I think this means you captured VHS tape to lossy MPEG2 on a DVD recorder. Depending on bitrate, this involves quality probelsm, a littel or lot depending on birates used and other factors. Re-encoding to h264 will make no improvement, and you'll take yet another quality hit. I'd assume you're familiar with the nature of lossy encoding, which is used for final delivery formats. One lossy encode is troublesome enough. Two will look worse. H264 encodes are, of course, not allowed for DVD. Better get out your BluRay or external media player.:

Quote:
Originally Posted by K150 View Post
I'm mostly done, but I'm wondering if I used a good VCR for the job. I have the following VCRs, from oldest to newest. All are 4 head HiFi with composite outputs....
At this point it would hardly matter which VCR was used, although I'd say the JVC's are the worst choice for EP tapes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K150 View Post
But the main question I have is a lot of these tapes were recorded using the Sonys, should I bother fixing them and would the picture improve much? Going from memory they seemed to have better auto tracking than the two JVCs, which could be because the tapes were recorded on them (in EP mode no less).
A little maintenance never hurts a player, but once you've recorded analog tape to a lossy format it's a done deal. As stated, JVC never encouraged EP mode, they simply tolerated its use but made no effort to squeeze any quality from slow-speed recordings. The Sharp and the SONY would be better for EP, although both players will generate oversharpening artifacts, dot crawl, blown out highlights, chroma noise, and generally poor control of digital video levels. People always blame VHS itself for these and other defects, which become encoded as digital artifacts that don't exist on the tape. That blame is justified, of course, but VHS doesn't have to look like that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by K150 View Post
I'm not looking for best possible results, just the best results I could obtain with the VCRs I currently have.
It's laudable that you have the patience to do all that recording. What you have now is as good as you can expect without using different methods or better hardware.

If you'd like an evaluation of any recording you might have questions or problems with, you're welcome to load up a short edited sample. However, before you do so, ask for advice on how to make a short few seconds of DVD video without damage. There are (free) ways of making quick, short cuts with MPEG without re-encoding, which is something else we wouldn't recommend. Even worse, posting re-processed samples to something like YouTube would render the exercise pretty useless.

Usually you'll get better results from VHS by following the Guides that have been posted here for years. However, for most people the guides aren't an option if you're pressed for time or if you're willing to live with average or lower quality. http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/video.htm. It's possible to get decent captures from VHS direct to DVD, but good bitrates are required (you didn't mention your recording parameters), and there's not much you can do with tape to DVD without damage except simple cut-and-join edits with smart-rendering apps. Neither MPEG nor h264 are designed as editing formats. I think you'll find in tech forums such as digitalfaq that re-encoding already lossy encoded video is discouraged.

Here is a list of VCRs that have for some years been recommended for VHS capture, with notes on why they are recommended. http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...ing-guide.html.
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  #4  
04-03-2016, 05:56 PM
K150 K150 is offline
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Thanks for the excellent info!
Might help to explain that these tapes are all of family moments on camcorders. Most of the content had been copied to EP VHS with the Sony VCRs. What little remained on the Hi8 tapes, I took directly from Hi8. The oldest tapes were made by a Panasonic VHS camcorder.

Some more details of what I did;

I went from VHS to a standalone DVD recorder (a Samsung, not sure of model number at the moment).
I used the 2hr mode on the DVD. Mostly DVD+R, which the Samsung seemed to prefer.
I wanted this step as the "digital backup" of the tapes. I know DVDs don't last forever either, but I can rip image files from the discs and back those up, and should not have to worry about any further losses.

I know about lossy encoding and how it has a sort of generational effect. I was hoping the initial VHS to DVD step would have high enough bitrates that losses would be minimal. The results looked decent to me, and the DVD seemed to even capture the noisy tapes quite well.

The next step of re-encoding, I used handbrake with the high profile of h264. I wasn't as concerned about the additional lossy encode, since this step was to just give me usable files on my computer and it wasn't so much for backing up the tapes.

Basically my goal with this project was to digitize my important VHS tapes so that 20, 30 or 50 years from now, I'll still have a digital backup of those tapes. And I wanted that backup to be as good as I could get using the hardware I have.

After reading some of the links you sent, if I really want to do a better job I should get an S-VHS with TBC. This might be something I consider down the road. I also thought briefly of sending the tapes in, but I don't have a whole lot of them and wanted the satisfaction of doing it myself.
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  #5  
04-03-2016, 07:03 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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If you're satisfied with the results there's little anyone could add. You might see a mild improvement if you recapture an EP tape (or part of one) with a SONY instead of the JVC and compare that new recording with the earlier JVC version of the same tape.
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  #6  
04-03-2016, 09:28 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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If I read you initial post correctly the Sony and the Sharp VCRs are dead (tape transport problems).

The Hi8 originals, except for characteristic drop-outs common to Hi8, should give the best results. Working from EP copies made of from VHS camcorder tapes is not great. Do you have access to the VHS originals? If they were VHS-C form factor, adapters are available that would allow working from the original tapes if they are still around.

If you are into electronics DIY you may be able to repair the Sony. Service manuals are generally available on line, and replacement parts can be scavenged, perhaps from a similar used unit. Keep an eye on yard/garage sales, thrift shops, and the like. Occasionally you can get lucky and find a usable quality unit for a modest price, especially if you live in or near a population center. Gear from on-line auction sites tend to be a mixed bag, and from what I've observed is often over priced for its condition.

The main concern 20, 30, 50, years from now may well be the ability to find gear to play DVDs. (VHS came out in the 1970s and had all but disappeared 35 years later. Monitoring the DVD read error rates can help you decide when it is time to make a fresh copy on what ever is the preferred archival media at that time. Today the M-DISC may be the best available DVD media for long term storage. A bit more expensive than standard DVDs, but media is cheap compared to the value of family memories.

Good luck with your process.
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  #7  
04-04-2016, 12:46 AM
K150 K150 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
If I read you initial post correctly the Sony and the Sharp VCRs are dead (tape transport problems).
The Sharp VCR actually works perfectly. The dead ones I talk about are two identical Sonys. They both have the exact same broken gear, so I can't harvest one to fix the other. But the gear in question (3-736-147-01 ) is actually still available here which I just found out;

http://www.studiosoundelectronics.com/gears.htm

I've had the VCRs apart and I can fix them, I may just buy a gear and give it a shot.

Quote:
The Hi8 originals, except for characteristic drop-outs common to Hi8, should give the best results. Working from EP copies made of from VHS camcorder tapes is not great. Do you have access to the VHS originals? If they were VHS-C form factor, adapters are available that would allow working from the original tapes if they are still around.
Yeah I have three basic source tapes I'm working from.

1. VHS recorded directly with the full size VHS panasonic camcorder (SP mode, linear audio). These tapes all look pretty good and have no generation loss, though the audio volume is a bit soft. I'm happy with these.

2. VHS copies made from Hi8 or Video8 tapes, usually in EP mode unfortunately. This is most of the tapes. Some turned out pretty well (considering the generation loss and EP mode), but there's a couple I wouldn't mind trying in one of the Sonys if I fix them.

3. Hi8 tapes, the newest stuff. I'm happy with these as well.


Quote:
The main concern 20, 30, 50, years from now may well be the ability to find gear to play DVDs. (VHS came out in the 1970s and had all but disappeared 35 years later. Monitoring the DVD read error rates can help you decide when it is time to make a fresh copy on what ever is the preferred archival media at that time. Today the M-DISC may be the best available DVD media for long term storage. A bit more expensive than standard DVDs, but media is cheap compared to the value of family memories.

Good luck with your process.
Definitely. Once DVD seems to be going obsolete I'll transfer the content to a new format. I mainly wanted to get these tapes to digital so I wouldn't have to worry about any more degradation.

Thanks for the help. I've actually kind of enjoyed this project so far.
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  #8  
04-04-2016, 06:21 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Quote:
I've had the VCRs apart and I can fix them, I may just buy a gear and give it a shot.
Give it a shot. It can be fun. And hopefully it will not adversely effect the tape path alignment.

Quote:
...though the audio volume is a bit soft. I'm happy with these.
Applying a bit of audio gain, as with a simple 2-channel audio mixer between the source and the recorder, can addrress this. Something like a Mackie Mix5 ($50) or Behringer Xenyx 502 ($40) perhaps. (You could even add voice-overs while recording to DVD.)
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  #9  
04-04-2016, 08:41 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I agree with with dpalomaki, the SONY would look better with EP. Sorry, I got it backwards, I thought the Sharp was broken, not the SONY. I used to have one of those 750's, which is now in my father in law's house.
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  #10  
04-25-2016, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
In general, a tape will play better, tracking wise, on the machine on which it was recorded, especially at EP/SLP speeds.
No, not really, not for VHS. See: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post43701
Only for Video8, Hi8, DV, etc. Pretty much anything but VHS/S-VHS.

Quote:
However, over time that can change as machines age and wear and drift out of alignment. VHS EP/SLP was never very good, and recollection of quality may be colored by the passage of time and technology advances. (A VHS tape that one remembers looked good in a 27" SD TV in 1995 generally looks pretty bad on a 55" HD set today when viewed in the same room.)
All true.

Quote:
There is a separate thread that discusses the machines recommended for capture.
Here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...ing-guide.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by K150 View Post
The Sharp VCR actually works perfectly.
That all said, Sharp made some nice VCRs. Sometimes the output can be satisfactory, if it was also the recording deck.

Sony never made great VCRs.

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04-25-2016, 10:50 AM
K150 K150 is offline
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I'll update this thread with what I've done. I bought a gear and repaired one of the Sony VCRs. I'm thinking the heads may be more worn than I thought. The picture isn't any better and may be slightly worse than the JVC did. Either way I'm glad I fixed since now I know. I also checked the Sharp. The picture when it plays back EP mode tapes is about the same. Main advantage the Sharp has is it doesn't go to a blue screen with a bit of snow.

All in all I think im satisfied. If I do revisit this project I'll think about getting an S-VHS unit with TBC.

It's like dpalomaki said. I'm remembering VHS with a bit of nostalgia. But my eyeballs are accustomed to a 1080p TV and bluray content. So playing back VHS, especially EP mode tapes, just looks cruddy.

Thanks for the advice. I'll keep this thread in mind if/when I get an S-VHS.
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  #12  
04-25-2016, 11:35 AM
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JVC SR-MV55 DVD
never had one, but it seems to have all the features required including line tbc
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04-25-2016, 11:40 PM
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Yet another question came up. I noticed when I played commercial tapes thru the DVD recorder, I got macrovision protection (I was just using the DVD recorder as a passthru).
So I hooked the VCR directly to the composite input to the TV. No more macrovision, but the picture is a lot jumpier and cruddier. The TV also seems to have trouble during movement, like it's dropping or missing frames. I can see the retrace portion of the signal when I fast search or pause the video. I didn't see any of that when I was playing through the DVD recorder. Makes me wonder if the DVD recorder might have TBC on the input. The video sure is a lot more stable when I run it through there.
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04-26-2016, 12:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by K150 View Post
Yet another question came up. I noticed when I played commercial tapes thru the DVD recorder, I got macrovision protection (I was just using the DVD recorder as a passthru).
So I hooked the VCR directly to the composite input to the TV. No more macrovision, but the picture is a lot jumpier and cruddier. The TV also seems to have trouble during movement, like it's dropping or missing frames. I can see the retrace portion of the signal when I fast search or pause the video. I didn't see any of that when I was playing through the DVD recorder. Makes me wonder if the DVD recorder might have TBC on the input. The video sure is a lot more stable when I run it through there.
True TBC would remove Macrovision, as it's an artificial video error that affects timing.

DVD recorders have frame syncs, sometimes frame sync with mild TBC. You can have TBC with frame sync, and frame sync with TBC. Each acts differently I know, it's complex. TBC isn't just a TBC.

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