Reducing vertical jitter with standalone DVD recorder?
2 Attachment(s)
I have this huge collection of tapes with some horrible jitter problems (and/or wrong field order) all over the tapes, and it's really driving me nuts! :mad4:
But recently, I made a nice discovery when testing my "Pioneer DVR-530H" standalone DVD recorder. It seems like it actually reduces the amount of jitter quite a bit on most of my tapes, see the attached files for examples. Both files was captured simultaneously from the same playback from my VCR. "File 1" captured from the VCR's S-Video output (to the "datavideo TBC-1000" to "Philips DVDR 3360H" recorder), while "file 2" from the VCR's SCART output (set to S-video) and straight to the "Pioneer DVR-530H" DVD recorder. As you can see, if comparing the two files frame by frame, there is a HUGE difference with a lot less bouncing frames/fields in "file 2" that was made by the "Pioneer DVR-530H" recorder. Strange enough, I haven't noticed any discussions on this subject elsewhere in this forum? Now, what I really want to know is if there's any other DVD recorders with this nifty feature out there? If so, it would be really nice to create a list of what models to look for, wouldn't it? :-) So, has any of you guys made similar discoveries with your DVD recorders? If so, I would love to know what brand and model it is! :congrats: PS: According to the specs sheets of my recorder (Pioneer DVR-530H), it does have some TBC technology built into it. It also seems like it's possible to use it as a pass-thru device. The only problem is that it does drop out easally on tape errors so I'm really interested in a list of other recorders that can do the same thing! :wink2: |
Quote:
Quote:
You'll find other posts if you scour the archives here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...-es10-dvd.html. Quote:
Panasonic DMR_ES10 Panasonic DMR_ES15 Toshiba RD-XS32 Toshiba RD-XS34 Toshiba RD-XS35 Toshiba RD-2, 3, 4 Panasonic DMR-ES20 Those at the top of the list are better than those at the bottom. Quote:
There were several posts with tbc pass-thru demos and partial restoration from losssless media. One post is here (Toshiba preliminary test samnple): http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post43209 Or these test restorations from bad tape played on a non-TBC VCR thru an ES15 or ES10, captured to lossless media for repair and restoration: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post44631 But why repeat what's been discussed thoroughly elsewhere? For instance: http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...hat-do-you-use. As you know, the usual recommendation for VHS capture is to cap to lossless media if you intend to do any fixup or repair. Considering the blown-out levels and other problems in your samples, jitter is the least of its worries. Was this a bad tape tape recorded to lossy media for archiving? I've had many a run-in with those myself using my now-deceased DMR-ES20 with its LSI chip and onboard tbc. I wonder how it would look if capped to lossless media? Have you tried playing this tape on other players with real tbc's built-in? |
sanlyn: I think you possibly missed the "vertical" part? :unsure: Most discussions about the DVD recorders don't compare their abilities to prevent frame/field bounce.
hysteriah: One problem is that no one has a standard "control" capture device to compare against. Vertical jitter is caused by the ADC failing to determine the start of the frame. So every design out there will vary in its tolerance for malformed signals. If recorder A can grab frames 1-3 properly while failing with 5-9 and recorder B grabs 6-9 while failing with 1-3,5 which is better at handling jitter? :hmm: |
- Horizontal jitter = timing error = video jargon definition of "jitter" = includes tearing/flagging/skew errors ;)
- Vertical jitter = not technical jitter, bouncing, layman description; I always forget the jargon The error appear to be tracking based. Know that it can change from playback to playback, even under identical workflows. The TBC-1000 is known to have a slightly positive effect on vertical jitter. This can vary wildly from tape to tape. I often deal with this, and it's one reason I have a stack of varied VCRs, TBCs, and other filters. Eventually, some combo will make it behave. Usually. |
Quote:
Quote:
|
Added later:
A sample of obvious and severe vertical jitter referred to earlier is in a post at http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post35345. Attached to that post is a "bad" sample with vertical jitter and other severe problems. The partial test "fix" is also posted as an attachment and required a tbc pass-thru as well as an AVT-8710 frame-level tbc. |
2 Attachment(s)
Hi guys and thanks a lot for all your replies. Gosh, you guys really are the GREATEST! :congrats:
Sanlyn: I think you misunderstand. This is all about "vertical jitter", I mean bouncing frames/fields and that means bouncing frames/fields only. See my sample clips to see what I mean ;-) Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
So, what to do? I guess I should stop using the datavideo TBC-1000? But what to replace it with? :question: |
Quote:
There's little or no vertical jitter in the other samples I referenced because both were made with pass-thru and frame-level tbc's, as a demo of how a good capture setup and restoration techniques can retrieve watchable video from a bad tape. I did have another high end VCR with that tape but it refused to track well enough to suit the tape. Thus, many members here have more than one VCR. If you don't see vertical jitter in those other samples it's a sign that the setup worked. Without those tbc's, frames were all over the place. But the bad captures were useless, so I discarded them. |
Quote:
|
Quote:
|
Quote:
Code:
! = good |
1 Attachment(s)
I'm sorry for this late reply, guys. I've been busy doing some important comparisions between all my capture devices :)
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
- The WORST unit with LOTS of jitter was my LSI chipped DVD recorder, "Philips DVDR 3360". Without the datavideo TBC in front of it, the picture from it really bounces all the time, with large jumps (1 to 8 pixels up or down). The resault was a total disaster. - Next worst is actually the "Datavideo TBC-1000". It's a lot better than the Philips DVD recorder, but it still has way to much jitter on most of my tapes. They are all similar to the sample clips that I posted earlier in this thread. All in all, the "datavideo TBC" is pretty useless on most of my tapes, UNFORTUNATELY :depressed: - Next best on this vertical jitter problem is actually the "Canopus ADVC-300". It has noticably less bouncing, maybe half as many frames as the the datavideo TBC-1000, and the frames/fields only jumps 1 pixel up or down every time. The ADVC-300 is still not good enough for my taste though :mad4: - The WINNER with large margin is without doubt the "Pioneer DVR-530H" DVD recorder. It only bounces once or twice for every 10th bounce from the datavideo TBC. I'm quite happy with this amount of jitter in my recordings and it's probably the best I can get from my tapes, I guess? :question: What kind of TBC is inside of this unit, actually? Is there anyone who knows? Now, there's just one more thing that I don't understand: Quote:
The only problem I've seen when using the Pioneer DVR-530H as a pass-thru (except that the picture goes black on tape errors), is that it outputs some kind of "dotted line" on top of the screen to the left (see attached screenshot). Where does this white dotted line come from? http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1475800719 |
It's the WSS used on PAL line 23. The Japanese engineers screwed up when they specified PAL DV, causing non-picture Vertical Interval data to be encoded into the frame.
See the two links at the bottom of this post for further technical reading, if you'd like: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post45810 |
After opening a thread about annoying vertical jitter myself (https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...ield-starts%29), I was pointed at this page.
I've contacted the TS (hysteriah) and was kindly strengthened in the idea of trying a Pioneer DVR-530H or DVR-630H. After obtaining a DVR-530H-S (Silver?) and inserting it as a pass through between my VCRs (Philips VR1100 rebranded NV-FS200 and Blaupunkt's rebranded AG-1980P) and my full frame TBC (Kramer FC400), the frequent vertical shifting of fields disappeared entirely! I am very enthusiastic (and surprised) about this remedy. Apparently, these Pioneers indeed have something unique in their field reconstruction HW/SW. Actually, it made my TBC quite useless, because also the horizontal jitter reduction of these Pioneer DVD recorders is pretty good for my old VHS camcorder tapes. Highly recommended! |
Site design, images and content © 2002-2024 The Digital FAQ, www.digitalFAQ.com
Forum Software by vBulletin · Copyright © 2024 Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.