Quantcast Flickering colours on VHS tape? - Page 2 - digitalFAQ Forum
  #21  
10-05-2016, 06:42 AM
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Avisynth:
Code:
AVISource("d:\UnprocessedHuff.avi")
ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=true) # alternative that specifies interlacing
ChromaShift(C=10, L=-4) # align chroma over luma
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true) # alternative that specifies interlacing
StabMod() # lordsmurf PRE-deinterlace VHS jitter stab() alternative
VirtualDub .vcf attached.

The dropout/tracking fix must wait until later. It's slow and unstable. If you have the newest Skylake CPU, I can look to add it. If not, don't bother, it will crash.

This is clearly some sort of nth gen madness going on. I'd need to see the whole tape to know what's going on. It cold be reuse, bad analog editing, etc. There's to many variables without physically seeing the tape, or at least the full video. And no, I really don't want to see the whole video, please don't try to upload it.

Post the link of the download page where you're trying to download the filter pack.

BTW, my video system is busy right now, can't really do anything else. I did the above test clip between tasks.

CNR is the name of an Avisynth filter.

@msgohan: The chroma leaking across frames is there, yes, slightly. Like I said, proof of concept, it still needs some tweaking. Having 2-3 frames of chroma blend is going to be the best you can do here. CNR was set to wide mode, and that is probably why.


Attached Files
File Type: vcf unproc-fix.vcf (1.0 KB, 6 downloads)

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  #22  
10-05-2016, 07:02 AM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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I've never even heard of a Skylake CPU.

By way of providing data points: the reason I capped on my Panasonic rather than my Philips is I had really bad tearing on the latter. The chroma shift was also significantly worse. What would physically seeing the tape tell you?

Filter pack is attached to the last post here: Coming Soon: lordsmurf's Avisynth processing guides!
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  #23  
10-05-2016, 07:04 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
lordsmurf, I'm trying to download your AviSynth filters pack from the guide thread, but it's failed twice. Is there an issue with it, or is the problem at my end?
I just tested the link and it worked.
Here is a copy of the download link (left-click on the link): http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...isynth-plugins

Download the RAR to a separate folder, not to the Avisynth plugin folder.

If you get an error message, what does it say?

Last edited by lordsmurf; 10-05-2016 at 03:55 PM. Reason: Updated link. -LS
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  #24  
10-05-2016, 07:12 AM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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It was just failing in the web browser. That link worked though.

lordsmurf, could you clarify the HuffYUV vs Lagarith and HuffYUV installation thing?
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  #25  
10-05-2016, 07:16 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I use Lagarith for many of my working files saved as YV12, which huffyuv doesn't support. I don't use Premiere. But I've had no problem with huffyuv in Adobe AfterEffects. That's Adobe for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
I've never even heard of a Skylake CPU.
New super CPU. But I'm tired of building new PC's that are obsolete as soon as they're set up and working.

Quote:
Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
By way of providing data points: the reason I capped on my Panasonic rather than my Philips is I had really bad tearing on the latter. The chroma shift was also significantly worse. What would physically seeing the tape tell you?
Other than skewing erors, you should see just about the same fluttery disturbance and saturation you see with the Panny in this case.

Last edited by sanlyn; 10-05-2016 at 07:45 AM.
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  #26  
10-05-2016, 09:49 AM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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VDub gives an error regarding Camcorder Color Denoiser 1.7 when I try to load the VCF file: no such filter loaded. The one in my filter chain is a Camcorder color denoise 1.6. Am I using an older version of the same filter, or are they different things?
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  #27  
10-05-2016, 10:28 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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newest ccd here (left click): http://www.infognition.com/cgi/getfilter?id=220
Not very effective in this case, however. Best to work in the original YUV before trying RGB.

Many more VDub filters here: http://www.infognition.com/VirtualDubFilters/
But watch out for the VirtualDub Filter Pack on this page. Many in the pack aren't updated.
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  #28  
10-05-2016, 10:58 AM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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lordsmurf, I assume CNR is CNR2? You didn't give that in your AVS script, but you mentioned it when describing your workflow.

Attached HuffYUV samples from the pre-game intro video, the game itself, and a studio segment.

EDIT: Installed that plugin, still getting the error.

EDIT 2: It helps to put things in the right folder. Can now load the VCF.

EDIT 3: Can't see the issue pointed out by msgohan, but on the Intro clip the red jacket on the guy who does a layup just before the titles come up sticks around way too long. Unchecking 'wide' under V on CNR in VirtualDub helps but doesn't completely eliminate the issue, removing CNR from the filter chain completely does.


Attached Files
File Type: avi Game1.avi (30.57 MB, 3 downloads)
File Type: avi Game2.avi (19.60 MB, 3 downloads)
File Type: avi Intro.avi (45.97 MB, 4 downloads)
File Type: avi Studio.avi (12.64 MB, 7 downloads)

Last edited by koberulz; 10-05-2016 at 11:34 AM.
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  #29  
10-05-2016, 12:26 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
lEDIT: Installed that plugin, still getting the error.
The ccd I had to use for lorsdsmurf's .vcf file was downloaded from the link I posted. Iyt's not the version I normally us, so I saved my old one. I normally use CCD_SSE2.vdf listed as "Camcorder color denoise 1.6 MT". The version downloaded is ccd.vcf dated 5 September 2013.

Thanks for the samples. Apparanetly processed previously by a couple of dudes who spent days in a closed room with their hookah pipes loaded with crystal meth, conducting their own video Demolition Derby. What a shame. Well, we can give a try later. But the vids are pretty well borked. AMybe the default settings for your capture device aren't optimum, but I wouldn't know what to set for. Try saturation for beginners.
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  #30  
10-05-2016, 12:52 PM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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I was a little too quick on my conclusions about that red jacket; it was visible a little even in the AVS file. So I dropped un and vn in CNR2 to 35 from the default 47, and it disappeared. Re-enabling CNR in VDub brings it back though. I'm not sure how to fiddle with those settings, other than checking and unchecking 'wide'. There's an explanation of the X and Y axes in the settings for it, but I don't understand what they mean.

What leads you to the conclusion that it's been processed?
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  #31  
10-05-2016, 12:54 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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What you can do is load the other filter (Chroma Noise Reduction) by itself using the revised .vcf file attached below. Then load two copies of your own CCD filter. Set one CCD filter for a strength of 50, set the other for a strength of 30. You can chain multiple copies of the same VDUb filters together.

A .vcf file is a plain text file. You can open it with Notepad to see what it's doing. You can make changes, but NEVER overwrite the original. Save the changes as a new .vcf with a different name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
What leads you to the conclusion that it's been processed?
All you have to do is watch it. But don't ask what was done to it. It's either been wildly processed or was recorded with a VCR that needs critical therapy. The tape has also been improperly stored for quite a spell. There are color stains all over the place from what appears to be storage in humid or heated conditions. It looks cooked.

Quote:
Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
EDIT 2: It helps to put things in the right folder. Can now load the VCF.
Indeed. It does prevent hassles, LOL! I've done it myself. BTW, you can have both versions of the CCD vdf installed if they have different names.


Attached Files
File Type: vcf unproc-fix_new.vcf (820 Bytes, 1 downloads)
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  #32  
10-05-2016, 12:57 PM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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Did you miss my earlier edit? I was putting the plugin into the wrong folder because sometimes I'm an idiot.

What would capturing with lower saturation do that lowering saturation in software won't? What's actually wrong with the saturation?
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  #33  
10-05-2016, 01:04 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
Did you miss my earlier edit? I was putting the plugin into the wrong folder because sometimes I'm an idiot.
Yes. I changed my last post as well. Fast and furious today, what?

Quote:
Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
What would capturing with lower saturation do that lowering saturation in software won't? What's actually wrong with the saturation?
Either way. With advanced color controls later on you can adjust saturation for individual colors, but not during capture. Better to try it YUV fist, though, if possible.
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  #34  
10-05-2016, 01:38 PM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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A bad VCR and unsuitable storage conditions seem more likely than processing.

I mean, yes, it looks awful. I know enough to be able to tell that (as do people with far less knowledge and experience than me, probably). It's the conclusion that it was processed that I don't really understand. I just looked at it and figured that's what a crappy 80s tape looks like. Apart from the horribly red ground-level cameras, which I'm guessing is an issue with the camera settings and nothing to do with the tape at all. Going through in Premiere and cutting it up to use a different AVI for each angle has been tremendous fun, particularly when they add replay wipes. *sigh*

Quote:
Better to try it YUV fist, though, if possible.
What do you mean by that? Processing through AviSynth before VDub converts to RGB?
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  #35  
10-05-2016, 03:54 PM
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Skylake aka i7-6700K: https://www.amazon.com/Intel-Unlocke.../dp/B012M8LXQW
Also: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819117559

Still the current CPU, 1 year later! It really is that good.

I see the Avisynth post: Coming Soon: lordsmurf's Avisynth processing guides!

The name was "lordsmurf's Avisynth". But the forum broke the name. Not sure if it's also screwing up the downloading. So I just deleted it, re-added it as "lordsmurf Avisynth". I've probably added some stuff in the last 6 months. Need to give that thread attention again, new beta download. BTW, that Avisynth guide is being co-developed with the new glossary, as there's much overlap.

I always start with my current multiscript, and delete unneeded lines to post it. I must have deleted the CNR2 line?
Code:
Cnr2("xoo",4,2,64) # remove chroma banding noise, wide UV setting
CCD 1.6 and 1.7 do the same thing. No real discernible difference that I can remember off-hand.

Wide for VirtualDub CNR increases the temporal axis. (I don't use it much, so want to double-check that statement.) Removing it reduces both negative and positive effects. You can play with other value, but I find that the defaults are often best. If those don't do what's needed, no other settings will either.

I'm not at my video system now.

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  #36  
10-05-2016, 04:36 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Sorry for the delay. Medical stuff today. Phooey.

Quote:
Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
Quote:
Better to try it YUV first, though, if possible.
What do you mean by that? Processing through AviSynth before VDub converts to RGB?
Yes. Usually do as much as ia pracrticable in the original colorspace before making colorspace moves.

I made a trial run with the studio avi to see what could be salvaged from the wreckage. Attached as "A" below. A test, really, because I have no idea what to do with all the pesky horizontal dropouts and comets without destroying what little remains. It's a hassle to keep the scant detail level of the tape from looking like plastic. I lowered midtones and darks to get a little depth into the image, but this might not work if there's dark sports playback during all the talking.

Attachment "B" is my feeble attempt at clearing the dropouts with RemoveSpotsMC3. There's some detail loss but IMO you don't get that much back in return. Now need a brilliant idea for those dropouts. And why is that emblem in the upper right so much noisier than the rest of the frame?

I had to use two steps (two separate scripts and two intermediate files) to get the "A" results. I can clean up the messy scripts and post later if you want.


Attached Files
File Type: mp4 A_Studio_Trial_3aa.mp4 (982.9 KB, 4 downloads)
File Type: mp4 B_Studio_Trial_3aab.mp4 (991.3 KB, 4 downloads)
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  #37  
10-05-2016, 05:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
S salvaged from the wreckage.
This tape isn't really a challenge.
The colors are illegal still, as I only addressed the noise:

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Quote:
because I have no idea what to do with all the pesky horizontal dropouts and comets without destroying what little remains.
Vdub crashed 3 times out of 4, to run my script. But it did run. That script fixed most dropout and momentary tracking problems. We can discuss it later this year.

Quote:
It's a hassle to keep the scant detail level of the tape from looking like plastic.
The chroma is already destroyed. There really are no fine details in the source. What you're seeing is noise. When you remove it, you think you're also removing detail. But you're not. I always try to discern noise from detail. Sometimes it's not easy, and we all make that mistake.



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  #38  
10-05-2016, 05:50 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Thanks for the notes.

No, there's no detail. So I added noise (AddGrainC).

The red jacket in the image tops out at RGB 244, but is mostly around RGB 220-230. The white shirt hits 244. The jacket is still over saturated and looks neon. Unfortunately if red is curt any further the guy's face turns green, then cyan In short, the core image chroma values were wrecked a long time ago. RED is clipped in YUV. More tweaking in RGB obviously due, but you can only go so far with thin data and clipped colors.

Are those image from the original? The mp4's have a red jacket under RGB 200 and the shirt collar is white, not cyan.

Last edited by sanlyn; 10-05-2016 at 06:00 PM.
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  #39  
10-05-2016, 08:22 PM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Sorry for the delay. Medical stuff today. Phooey.
But I demand my free help immediately!

Quote:
Yes. Usually do as much as ia pracrticable in the original colorspace before making colorspace moves.
The only issue with that being I know nothing about color correction in AviSynth. I can handle most things okay(ish) in VDub, so that's where I've preferred to work. Unfortunately AviSynth isn't really something you can just play around with; the ability to drag sliders around and watch a video preview change in real time makes it much easier to learn things.

Even the AviSynth wiki - which still requires you to actually know what you're looking for to a large degree - is pretty light on explanations for the most part.

Quote:
I lowered midtones and darks to get a little depth into the image, but this might not work if there's dark sports playback during all the talking.
Well, I'm figuring in any case that the studio segment and the game will each need their own settings. Not sure if the intro will fit into one or the other or require a third (or perhaps just both; masked so that one affects the video area in the middle and the other affects the graphics around it).

I'm putting together an MP4 of the entire opening sequence, just to give you an idea of how it all works. I'm basically just grabbing the first and last few seconds of each segment, but to catch everything and show the sequence it still needs to be way too long to post as an AVI. There's nothing in it that's not in the already-posted AVI files though.

Quote:
I can clean up the messy scripts and post later if you want.
Be great if you could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The colors are illegal still
I still don't really get this 'oversaturated', 'illegal colours' thing. I can see, obviously, that sanlyn's sample is less saturated. And yes, the jacket looks less ridiculous. But you're both talking like there's objective realities about saturation where I'm only aware of it being a matter of taste. I was walked through histograms and wave form monitors for luma, so I get that...obviously there's a chroma equivalent?

I did some quick jobs based on MPG files a while back, and I've noticed that I tended to have the brightness too low and the contrast too high, because I was going in with a nooby 'make the blacks black and the whites white' mindset (and didn't have the color correction or noise removal skills to make almost-white areas less oddly-colored without just blowing them out). I had the opportunity to work with one of those in combination with a DVD produced from the original broadcast tapes, and noticed my versions were also significantly more saturated, so presumably there's a similar issue happening in that respect.


Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
The red jacket in the image tops out at RGB 244, but is mostly around RGB 220-230. The white shirt hits 244.
What does this actually mean, and how do you determine it? Pulling screenshots into Photoshop, or is there a quicker way? AvsPmod gives hex values on mouseover, but that seems less helpful. EDIT: Okay, turns out you can change that in settings, so I switched it out for both YUV and RGB. However, that's not a solution once we get into VDub.

Quote:
RED is clipped in YUV.
*blank look*

Unrelated edit: For some reason the timezone settings don't seem to work. Apparently I made this post at 8:22pm yesterday, when it was in fact 9:22am. Today, obviously. I have it set correctly in my control panel.

MP4 attached.


Attached Files
File Type: mp4 MP4.mp4 (15.86 MB, 2 downloads)
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  #40  
10-05-2016, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by koberulz View Post
But I demand my free help immediately!
I know you're joking, but we do get that mentality around here almost monthly.

In the last 30 days:
- Free Member, daily replies, "please I need help now!"
- email, (not) potential customer, "I need a phone conversation, and you need to answer these (25+) questions" ... for a $25 project
- PM, "can you restore this MP4?", sure, that would be about $65, "I don't want to pay for it!!!!"

Some people are f'ing nuts.

I seriously cannot click this enough:

Quote:
The only issue with that being I know nothing about color correction in AviSynth.
I hate cc in Avisynth, and avoid it. VirtualDub is okay, but true correction is reserved for Premiere. I'm trying to learn the free version of Blackmagic Davinci Resolve.

Quote:
Unfortunately AviSynth isn't really something you can just play around with; the ability to drag sliders around and watch a video preview change in real time makes it much easier to learn things.
Use AvsPmod.

Quote:
Even the AviSynth wiki - which still requires you to actually know what you're looking for to a large degree - is pretty light on explanations for the most part.
Yeah, it's really crappy. This has been my main complaint for 15 years now. I used to get in heated discussions with plugins devs at VH, because their documentation was obtuse crap -- or simply missing entirely. Making a plugin is great, but worthless if nobody can use it. Several filters are still total unknowns after a decade. Nobody knows to use it. Waste of space, really. Just a tease.

Some are actually just "work in progress" with no progress.

I plan to address that with my Avisynth documentation. Hopefully I can tap others, like sanlyn and msgohan, to help on it.

Quote:
Well, I'm figuring in any case that the studio segment and the game will each need their own settings.
Welcome to complex scene-based restoration.

Quote:
I still don't really get this 'oversaturated', 'illegal colours' thing. I can see, obviously, that sanlyn's sample is less saturated.
Colors should not be neon. The saturation is "illegal" because it blooms, destroys detail. For example, the "studio" lapel. You can see them. All you can see is neon pink. The value is exceeding the luma that held the primary contrast data. It's not legal, not balanced.

Quote:
But you're both talking like there's objective realities about saturation where I'm only aware of it being a matter of taste.
Not in this instance. Again, it chroma blooms beyond the luma. That should not happen.

Quote:
I did some quick jobs based on MPG files a while back, and I've noticed that I tended to have the brightness too low and the contrast too high, because I was going in with a nooby 'make the blacks black and the whites white' mindset (and didn't have the color correction or noise removal skills to make almost-white areas less oddly-colored without just blowing them out). I had the opportunity to work with one of those in combination with a DVD produced from the original broadcast tapes, and noticed my versions were also significantly more saturated, so presumably there's a similar issue happening in that respect.
Pay close attention to the VCR, TBC and capture card for harsh value changes. Process of elimination needed to exclude items. Yes, that means multiple equipment. And I know, not possible for everybody. You just need to extra vigilant in not screwing up values.

Quote:
*blank look*
sanlyn and I said the same thing, but with different words. He likes jargon, which is good. That lets me go more jargon-less. So do you understand it better now, with my explanation? If so, use his to better understand the jargon, which you'll see in the software.

Quote:
Unrelated edit: For some reason the timezone settings don't seem to work. Apparently I made this post at 8:22pm yesterday, when it was in fact 9:22am. Today, obviously. I have it set correctly in my control panel.
The forum may be hard-coded to CST. The vB clock is temperamental.

Quote:
MP4 attached.
My settings are actually conservative, and would work for that entire tape. Fix noise now. Do color correction in a second pass. It's lossless, after all -- and that's why.

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