Quantcast Advice on Capture, Faulty Svideo Cable II - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
10-24-2016, 10:18 AM
zack82 zack82 is offline
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Hi all

Apologies for the new thread....as I can not reply to my old thread as its over 132 days old and throwing up errors.
Advice on captured VHS, faulty s-video?

Hi

Sorry for the delay...was a bit busy over the Summer....

I've managed to buy another Svideo Cable, and I've uploaded a new AVI..

Can you tell me if this cable solves the problems mentioned as I don't know what other problem could it be

A faulty S video connection or interference internally on the VCR...or Internal Interference in the Camcorder during the Analogue to Digital Conversion...or the IEE1394 cable from Camcorder to Notebook

or is this the best I am going to get with this equipment setup

Thanks in Advance


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File Type: avi uni2.avi (91.34 MB, 10 downloads)
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  #2  
10-24-2016, 03:35 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Looks like a combination of dot crawl and tape noise. Add to that the way Dv compression exaggerates it and adds compression artifacts (mosquito noise), sloppy interlace and field reversal, and a number of other common analog-to-DV factors including badly blown-out brights. Could be coming from the player, maybe the camera. Lots of ragged edges, too, and noisy darks. Noisy tape and noisy playback seldom look very good when capturing analog tape to DV. It an be cleaned up, but you'll lose a lot, will need Avisynth for the task, and should work with lossless media. DV is not lossless. That's IMO, of course, so I'll defer to DV apologists and camera experts from here. Hopefully the player has a sharpness control that can be turned down.

QTGMC at default settings cleaned up most of the sputter and grunge, levels were fixed with SmoothAdjust, and RemoveSpotsMC repaired some horizontal dropouts. Most buzzing is nearly kaput and at least it doesn't look plastic after rework, attached. But it took 3 minutes of filtering.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zack82 View Post
A faulty S video connection or interference internally on the VCR...or Internal Interference in the Camcorder during the Analogue to Digital Conversion...or the IEE1394 cable from Camcorder to Notebook or is this the best I am going to get with this equipment setup
After cleanup the video still has the original oversharpening effects that cause strong edge halos and ghosting (ringing), making it impossible to clean up some of the red chroma bleed. Turning down the sharpening during capture could help. Buzzing edges and mosquito noise plus exaggerated tape noise simply comes with the territory when capturing noisy tape to lossy DV. If you plan on doing any capture cleanup, as would be required with the tape in question, you should be capturing to lossles media, not to DV -- lossless still has some of the tape and chroma noise, but it won't have additional compression artifacts. Going to DV means you'll have to lossy re-encode anyway for more universal playback, since DV is PC-only and not supported for internet posting. If you don't intend to do any cleanup from VHS, you're wasting time and effort capturing to DV or even to lossless -- may as well get a DVD recorder or other capture device and record directly to DVD or h.264. The principal idea behind lossless capture is repair and restoration work that doesn't create further damage until a final encode to a delivery format.

Any DV camera experts out there that might give some advice about whether the camera is adding to the noise level? Or is it just the way DV behaves with this tape?


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File Type: mp4 uni2_rework.mp4 (15.63 MB, 1 downloads)
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  #3  
10-25-2016, 04:44 PM
zack82 zack82 is offline
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Thank you so much for you effort and informative advice Sanlyn

The reworked file is certainly a big improvement, I actually have AviSynth installed and used that to capture the original file, do I just install and use the plug-ins QTGMC SmoothAdjust RemoveSpotsMC or do I need some form of script.
I don't have the original remote for my VCR Panasonic NV-HS960B-S is there a way to turn down sharpness

If I was to replace the Camcorder A/D converter (Panasonic NV-GS200EB) with a AVT-8710 will this sort out most of the issues.

Panasonic NV-HS960B-S (DNR off TBC off) >> Svideo >> AVT-8710 >> IE1394 >> Dell Notebook >> AviSynth

Thanks

Last edited by zack82; 10-25-2016 at 04:57 PM.
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  #4  
10-25-2016, 05:11 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zack82 View Post
If I was to replace the Camcorder A/D converter with a AVT-8710 will this sort out most of the issues.

VCR (DNR off TBC off) >> Svideo >> AVT-8710 >> IE1394 >> Dell Notebook >> AviSynth
Capturing to DV from a camera with Avisynth is news to me but, then, I don't capture analog tape to lossy codecs. The AVT-8710 is an external frame-level tbc, not a player or converter and doesn't output DV from analog s-video. How are you using Avisynth to capture a DV stream from your camera? For noisy analog tape using a laptop for lossless capture one would recommend a USB capture device designed for analog input, not for DV. Apparently your camera has a line-level tbc in its pass-thru circuit, which the AVT-8710 doesn't have and which you definitely need for analog tape.

In any case your tape requires some cleanup and you should be using some sort of device to control input levels to avoid clipping the signal. In AVisuynth I used 7 Avisynth plugins and some Avisynth built-in functions. Here is the Avisynth script I used:

Code:
AviSource("uni2.avi")
AssumeBFF()
ColorYUV(cont_y=-15,gain_y=-10,off_y=-5)
SmoothLevels(16, 1.05, 255, 16, 255, chroma=200, limiter=0, tvrange=true)
HQDering()
# ------ deinterlace, decomb, denoise, smooth out shimmer ------
QTGMC()
vInverse()
a=last
# ------ clean horizontal dropouts and more mosquito noise ------
e=a.selectEven().RemoveSpotsMC2x()
o=a.selectOdd().RemoveSpotsMC2x()
Interleave(e,o)
MergeChroma(awarpsharp2(depth=30))
LimitedSharpenFaster(edgemode=2)
Crop(10,2,-10,-10).AddBorders(10,6,10,6)
# ------  restore interlace  ---------
SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,0,3).Weave()

return last
The results were encoded via an x264 encoding engine to h.264 using TMPGenc Mastering Works and a rather middling bitrate for forum posting. There are many other encoders.

[EDIT] And BTW, thank you for submitting the sample.

Last edited by sanlyn; 10-25-2016 at 05:22 PM.
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  #5  
10-26-2016, 07:09 PM
zack82 zack82 is offline
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Thank You again....
I will use that script for this captured DV AVI....
My apologies...

I should have said Canopus ADVC-100 instead of AVT-8710

VCR (TBC on DNR off) >> Svideo >> Canopus ADVC >> IEE1394 >> Notebook >> Capture full RAW in AviSynth

Would this in anyway give me a superior quality capture then my current setup.
I wont be using the camcorder to convert to A/D anymore.
I would capture RAW then use AviSynth to maybe clean up (if needed)
and output H264 MP4 (via x264 encoding)

Burn the MP4 video onto a blank 25gb Bdr (with other captured VHS tapes) as PC file .mp4 format NOT BLURAY Video and put a copy onto Sandisk SD Card

Thanks again for all your efforts
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  #6  
10-26-2016, 09:34 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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With Canopus you'll get lossy DV and the same results you're getting now. If by "RAW" format you mean uncompressed, your captures will run 60GB or larger per hour. You'll have the same DV noise problems but you will lose line tbc functionality, which can't be corrected later with software, and you still have no way of controlling input levels. Yes, you will need some strong Avisynth filtering for cleanup. The script I posted didn't even make effort yet for red chroma shift, edge ghosting, or bright edge halos.

You can use h.264 or MPEG2 codecs to produce official standard def BluRay with authored menus if you wish, as long as the video is interlaced. Some external players might have a problem with mp4 burned to BluRay disc, some might not. With many players, when they see a BluRay disc they expect formatted BluRay video. Some will play generics (mkv, mp4, etc,) only from USB or external hard drives. Others aren't so picky. It's odd that you refer to mp4 as a "PC format", because it was designed mainly for internet use.
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  #7  
10-29-2016, 08:46 AM
zack82 zack82 is offline
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Hi

I've been using the plug-ins and script that you supplied and happy with the results

May I ask one more question.

I have a desktop machine as well

i7 2600k, 16gb ram 2gb r270x

Could I buy a internal desktop PCI type card that slots in, which has a Svideo In....That way I could connect the VCR directly to the Desktop PC and bypass having to use the Camcorder and IEE1394 hoping in will give me better capture and preserving more quality and detail before editing, minor restoring and authoring.

Any additional equipment that I could buy would be helpful. The tapes I have are from about 1981 to 1989 and have been kept in dry storage very well looked after as they represent a wonderful care and worry free memories of bygone time, where the people that truly cared about you and loved you are gone never to return, which I would love to share in all its glory with surviving family and relatives.

thank you
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10-29-2016, 09:53 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zack82 View Post
I have a desktop machine as well
i7 2600k, 16gb ram 2gb r270x
Could I buy a internal desktop PCI type card that slots in, which has a Svideo In....That way I could connect the VCR directly to the Desktop PC and bypass having to use the Camcorder and IEE1394 hoping in will give me better capture and preserving more quality and detail before editing, minor restoring and authoring.
It is infinitely easier to work with video using a desktop than a laptop. But you still need a capture device for your PC. You also need a line-level tbc for scanline sync correction and certain types of noise reduction. Apparently your camera has a builtin tbc. Finding a working VCR with that feature would be a long and expensive trek. Unfortunately the camera outputs DV and requires Firewire. You are better off with a good camera and line tbc than you would be with no tbc in an analog PCI or USB capture device -- DV does have a quality cost and needs sophisticated filtering, but timing errors would look far worse and cannot be corrected with software.

As you see, it is still possible to obtain decent results with DV capture from analog tape, but it does take more work. On the other hand, starting from scratch with no high-end VCR, no line or frame-level tbc, and no capture device designed for analog work would cost a pretty penny and might not be practical in your area. Even with a setup optimized for analog source, the captures will be easier to work with but won't be pristine when captured, they will still have the same defects that are on the tapes (minus the DV compression artifacts). You could get line-level tbc and decent frame sync with a used Panasonic ES10 or ES15 pass-thru device into an analog capture card, but those aren't easy to find in your area and you would still need a USB or PCI capture card (USB is easier to find). I'd say that unless you have time, cash, and hardware for a complete changeover, you could be better off continuing as you are.

Last edited by sanlyn; 10-29-2016 at 10:04 AM.
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  #9  
10-31-2016, 08:08 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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The quote below is from PM email, quoted here so that other readers can share in the response. Questions of this type belong in the public forum. Technical discussions aren;t really feasible in PM, which is for personal mail. Beside that, many members often don't sign in to email because they're quickly browsing forums with cell hones which limit use of amny icons and links, and limits material they can see on a small screen. Also, other members might have better answers to tech problems.

Quote:
I managed to purchase a PAL Panasonic dmr-es15 o ebay for about 40 in VGC.

Could you advise me a Capture Card I could buy to install in my Desktop PC.
The ES15 is a decent workaround for obtaining tbc functionality of a line tbc when a player without a built-in tbc is unavailable.

There are several USB devices that are recommended and are know to work propely. They also work with VirtualDub, PAL and NTSC, and together the device and VirtualDub can handle many source formats. You can also use the software that comes with the cards but that software is inferior to VirtualDub and more limited, and won't capture to lossless media.

Recommended devices: Best ATI All In Wonder card alternatives, to transfer tapes to digital

Capture to lossless media is usually recommended to lossless AVI in a YUY2 colorspace using lossless compressors like huffyuv or Lagarith. The huffyuv or Lagarith codec should be installed on the capture machine. Many install both codecs, for various reasons. Capture using huffyuv is less demanding on CPU and usually more consistent. The colorspace, frame size (720x576 for PAL) and lossless compressor is set in the Virtualdub capture dialog. Lagarith is most often used to losslessly recompress intermediate working files. Use the 32-bit versions of these codecs with 32=-bit VirtuialDub.

Please advise which operating system you are using (Win 32-bit or 64-bit) ?

There is a longer thread explaining how to use virtualdub for capture. It covers settinmgs for AGP and USB capture cards, and NTSC and PAL format settings: Capturing with VirtualDub [Settings Guide] . It is an exhaustive thread of several posts that cover almost every possible setting in VirtualDub, what the settings can and cannot accomplish, and answers many questions readers have asked about various capture cards. Many settings are intuitive but many others require explanation.

Lossless capture is a different world, more precise than DV transfer. I suggest that you look over the links and capture guide before proceeding. DV will often suffice for a lot of material -- but for tapes that have special personal value, lossless offers the best quality and most flexible methods.
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  #10  
11-22-2016, 07:07 AM
zack82 zack82 is offline
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Hi

Apologies for the delay I was a little busy over the last couple of weeks and have'nt had time to respond.

Now unless you have a AGP port or run WindowsXP or a 32bit OS your options are really limited

I run Windows 7 (64bit) as I have 16GB of Ram..if I was to switch to 32bit then i would only be using 3.5GB of it so it kinda not a option for me.

Also I've been looking online for a card with no luck as so i have provided a couple of links as im not sure if these are the types of cards im looking for and do I remove my current 3D Card (R270X) as most are both Capture and 3D cards

Ive provided some links below so that i get a idea of what i should be looking for..

Please do provide your own links if you can see the type of card i should be buying

thanks

(All In Wonder)
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/1823607096...%3AMEBIDX%3AIT
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ATI-RADEON...YAAOSwHMJYDUa-
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/ATI-All-In...AAAOSwgZ1XwWzz
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Canopus-ad...sAAOSwZVlXuFxB
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Canopus-Gr...3D112188968338
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  #11  
12-06-2016, 10:50 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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The X-- series of All In Wonders have PCIe mounts and are excellent cards. But their drivers still require XP. There is a list of newer alternatives to All In Wonders, most or many of which will work in later versions of Windows. I would not recommend the 32MB card you referenced. You should have at least 64MB of video RAM for fast wide screen monitors. They are all compatible with both PAL and NTSC. Their quality is such that they are recommended and in wide use. Best ATI All In Wonder card alternatives, to transfer tapes to digital?

I would not recommend Canopus. Analog tape has enough problems without adding artificially induced DV artifacts, noise, odd-looking color, sloppy interlacing, and the inability to control input luma and chroma levels. They're more trouble than they're worth.

As far as 32-bit memory is concerned, the chances that you'll need more than 3.2GB of memory for capture and standard definition processing from analog sources are slim indeed -- not to mention that 64-bit filters and plugins for additional processing are far and few between and pose serious limitations for cleanup and restoration. The AIW and USB devices work fine with less than 2GB of memory. 32-bit capture, Avisynth, VirtualDub, and many other processing apps are still in popular use in 32-bit and 64-bit systems with no problems.

Last edited by sanlyn; 12-06-2016 at 11:18 AM.
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