Quantcast Proc amp filter adjustments, ATI capture card? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
12-25-2016, 03:21 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Fort Lee, New Jersey
Posts: 471
Thanks: 131
Thanked 17 Times in 15 Posts
Hi folx,

Merry Christmas to many of you and Happy Hannukah for others.

I need to adjust proc amp for 3 capture cards. Is there any guide to do it? I suppose I can use the image (see attached). But the main concern is sharpness. The capture cards I'm using are:

AIW AGP,
ATI TV Wonder HD 750 PCI-e
and Conexant based USB stick.

Any help will be appreciated.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg colorbars750.JPG (25.7 KB, 16 downloads)
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #2  
12-25-2016, 09:18 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 2,248
Thanks: 76
Thanked 598 Times in 548 Posts
Nonsense. That color patch has nothing to do with calibration of any kind concerning capture. You don't adjust for the patch, you adjust for the video content you're capturing.

You of course are familiar with the prescribed y-luma range of y=16-235 for capture of analog video to digital media designed for processing and encoding to standard final delivery formats. Video content to be captured is calibrated with the help of the ATI proc amp controls and a capture histogram that measures luminance values of the incoming content signal, not an SMPTE color patch of poorly defined properties -- which, if your posted color patch is any indicator, has illegal luma and chroma values. Your ultimate measurements and proc amp settings will vary with every tape.

The use of a capture histogram to measure the incoming signal is shown in this post Capturing with VirtualDub [Settings Guide].

By the way, do you know what dot crawl is? Your color patch is full of it. You're already on your way to making very poor quality captures, which would be a waste of your ATI gear.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: metaleonid (01-03-2017)
  #3  
12-25-2016, 10:03 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Fort Lee, New Jersey
Posts: 471
Thanks: 131
Thanked 17 Times in 15 Posts
Thanks Sanlyn. I'm not too scientifically advanced in this area. I am looking at your post now. The most important thing is that for AIW 7500 your Sharpness is set to 128 and not to 0 like some people set in other capture devices. So I took a note of it.

I'll be capturing from LaserDiscs. I do have Video Essentials LD with color bars in it. Since it's not VHS do I need to pay attention to Hue and Saturation?

Thanks.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
12-26-2016, 04:57 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 2,248
Thanks: 76
Thanked 598 Times in 548 Posts
For almost all AIW cards, the defualt sharpness setting in the stock proc amp setup is 128 (neutral). This control has no effect on the external player -- if the player outputs over sharpening edge artifacts, the ATI control won't get rid of it, so setting it to zero just blurs the artifacts. This particular sharpness control is a simple blurring feature when set lower than 128, and is an edge-only sharpener that produces its own ringing artifacts above 128. You can experiment with it if you want, but I never heard of setting it to zero unless it has some effect the user is looking for.

Brightness and Contrast are the most important elements. Using Hue to correct VHS color is an exercise in futility and masochism unless you have a steady and easily visible color cast that never changes throughout the program --which would be highly unusual. A Hue control is a very primitive and limited device -- better color correction is available in post processing. Hue is a control that you'll have to experiment with if you want to use it, but remember that any color decision you make will be a permanent part of the capture that you'll have to constantly undo in post processing if you don't like it.

Last edited by sanlyn; 12-26-2016 at 05:18 AM.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: metaleonid (01-03-2017)
  #5  
12-26-2016, 10:19 AM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Fort Lee, New Jersey
Posts: 471
Thanks: 131
Thanked 17 Times in 15 Posts
Hi Sanlyn,

Thanks.

So for my case with AIW I should be setting Sharpness to 128 (default) then.

For Saturation and Hue, it is perfectly safe to set them to 128 and correct them in post processing, right?
The only thing I have to play with a bit are Brightness and Contrast. I will try to play with them today with AIW 7500.

As far as ATI 750 HD Theater PCI-e card goes, there I have to set the sharpness to 0, correct? Same with Conexant based cards.

Thanks a lot.

--Leonid
Reply With Quote
  #6  
12-26-2016, 03:01 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 2,248
Thanks: 76
Thanked 598 Times in 548 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by metaleonid View Post
Hi Sanlyn,

Thanks.

So for my case with AIW I should be setting Sharpness to 128 (default) then.

For Saturation and Hue, it is perfectly safe to set them to 128 and correct them in post processing, right?
The only thing I have to play with a bit are Brightness and Contrast. I will try to play with them today with AIW 7500.

As far as ATI 750 HD Theater PCI-e card goes, there I have to set the sharpness to 0, correct? Same with Conexant based cards.

Thanks a lot.

--Leonid
I haven't felt the need to change the sharpness or Hue default in 12 years of capturing VHS with AIW cards. I believe I had to lower Saturation very slightly a few years back to try to stop the usual red chroma bleed that comes out of many VCR's. But it didn't work for that problem, which is coming off the VCR itself and, in one case, was firmly part of a badly mastered tape. If yuou do happen to have chroma bleed or chroma shift (displacement) coming off the VCR, increasing saturation during capture will make it worse, decreasing will have little effect. If you've never used post process filters in Avisynth and/or Virtualdub you're probably not familiar with how much more precise those filters can be, compared to the simpler models in VCR's and non-lab-level proc amps. After you see a capture or two and get into post process work, you'll see what I mean.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: metaleonid (01-03-2017)
  #7  
12-27-2016, 06:11 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 6,076
Thanks: 564
Thanked 872 Times in 786 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
You don't adjust for the patch, you adjust for the video content you're capturing.
"Patch" = color bars generated, yes? (If so, correct! Adjust for content.)
Remember to calibrate monitor(s) first, so you don't adjust good video for bad display settings.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
I haven't felt the need to change the sharpness or Hue default in 12 years of capturing VHS with AIW cards. I believe I had to lower Saturation very slightly a few years back to try to stop the usual red chroma bleed that comes out of many VCR's.
Same here. I almost never adjust sharpness, and rarely adjust levels/values (IRE, gamma, etc).

There are also some ATI driver/software combos that disable the proc amp, or proc amp on capture (but it allowed setup for capture). I was in "ATUI proc amp doesn't work" hell about 10 yeas ago, and that's when I decided to just buy more/better hardware proc amps (Elite BVP4+, SignVideo).

Bleeding, and saturation reduction, as also my main need here. Several bleeding can often be fixed pre-capture, but not afterwards. Sometimes it works, sometimes not.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- Find television shows, cartoons, DVDs and Blu-ray releases at the TVPast forums.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank lordsmurf for this useful post: metaleonid (01-03-2017)
  #8  
12-27-2016, 09:15 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Fort Lee, New Jersey
Posts: 471
Thanks: 131
Thanked 17 Times in 15 Posts
Ok, I got it. I'll play with brightness and contrast then. I'll post here once I complete the settings. Thanks a lot.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
01-02-2017, 02:09 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Fort Lee, New Jersey
Posts: 471
Thanks: 131
Thanked 17 Times in 15 Posts
Hello folx,

Happy New Year! All the best in 2017 and subsequent years.

I just played with settings plugging my Pioneer Elite LD-S2 LaserDisc player to AIW 7500 via S-Video. I had all levels set to default (128). A few months ago I adjusted LD-S2 gain level to lower because at brightest frames it would give me white smears.

I played Video Essentials LaserDisc.

I snapshot the brightest frame found on this program (AIWWhites.jpg), one of the darkest frames (AIWBlacks.jpg) and then just color bars (AIWColors.jpg).

So the first question is: for brightness and contrast where do I go from here? Should I make sure I don't ever have red on both left and right on histogram at any point?

The second question: do color bars look alright?

I did the same thing for the Conexant based capture card. The results are very different. Should I start a different topic or should I include Conexant attachments here?


Attached Images
File Type: jpg AIWBlacks.jpg (38.1 KB, 7 downloads)
File Type: jpg AIWWhites.jpg (37.6 KB, 6 downloads)
File Type: jpg AIWColors.JPG (17.4 KB, 8 downloads)
Reply With Quote
  #10  
01-02-2017, 04:00 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 2,248
Thanks: 76
Thanked 598 Times in 548 Posts
You make sure you don't have a loot of red spillover into the red areas of the capture histogram. Now, the only problem here is that you might be able to get an excellent capture of the test bars on the Video Essentials disc. But those readings won't work with the actual laserdic movies, so you do realize you'll have to play some sample program and check brightness and contrast levels again. There's a picture of an "incorrect" and a "corrected" histogram in the post at Capturing with VirtualDub [Settings Guide]. You will have to check incoming levels for each LD program and each tape.

I thought that most laserdisc players used composite instead of s-video. That's what I see most people using to capture analog from laserdisc, so it's unusual to see an LD layer with s-video output. But if it works, use it.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: metaleonid (01-03-2017)
  #11  
01-02-2017, 04:28 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Fort Lee, New Jersey
Posts: 471
Thanks: 131
Thanked 17 Times in 15 Posts
Hi Sanlyn,

The thing is that I am puzzled how to make adjustment for Video Essentials. Now I found that you increased brightness to 147 and decreased contrast to 106. Let me me go in that direction and see if I can get something useful.

As for Composite and S-Video. That's not right. LD players usually output both S-Video and Composite. But S-Video outputs on most players have a simple 2D filter (there's one exception I believe). In LD-S2, however, the S-Video output produces pretty good results. But I am going to be capturing all LaserDiscs with 3 different workflows.
1. LD-S2 -> S-Video -> AIW 7500
Audio: LD-S2 -> Optical Toslink -> Terratec Aureon Universe 7.1

2. LD-S2 -> Composite -> Panasonic DMR-ES25 -> Component -> Conexant Based USB capture card with Component inputs
Audio: LD-S2 -> RCA out -> Conexant Based USB capture card with Component inputs

3. Pioneer CLD 703 -> Composite -> DIAMOND PCIE HD TV Tuner Card 750
Audio: Pioneer CLD 703 -> RCA out -> DIAMOND PCIE HD TV Tuner Card 750

Unfortunately there's no perfect solution for LD players. DIAMOND PCIE HD TV Tuner Card 750 would've been perfect if it weren't for AGC issues with LD-S2. It doesn't seem to have AGC issues with Pioneer CLD 703 LD player though. CLD 703 is inferior to LD-S2.

Panasonic DMR-ES25 has posterization issues.

S-Video output will produce dot crawls and rainbows.

Thank you, Sanlyn.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
01-02-2017, 06:22 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 2,248
Thanks: 76
Thanked 598 Times in 548 Posts
Sorry, I thought you were using the AIW 7500 for capture to lossless video and uncompressed audio. O didn't realize you want lossy codecs and audio compression, which of course means that further modification and edit of the captures are in doubt. Can't help you with that. If your capture gear won't allow adjustment for input levels from the source, you're using limited capture tools.

With the AIW capture proc amp and similar proc amp setups, "brightness controls the black level (darks) and "Contrast" controls white levels (brights), as exlained in the settings guide. For capture devices without proc amp controls or controls that can't be measured, you would need a metered external proc amp such as a SignVideo PA-100 with its luminance LED meter, or something similar: http://www.signvideo.com/products/pr...o-proc-amp.htm. Ausdio levels are usually not an issue, are usually captured uncompressed and altered if necessary in post processing.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: metaleonid (01-03-2017)
  #13  
01-02-2017, 06:39 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Fort Lee, New Jersey
Posts: 471
Thanks: 131
Thanked 17 Times in 15 Posts
No, that's not correct. All 3 of my workflows are intended for lossless capture into Huffyuv AVI. Sorry if my last response misled you. The motion adaptive 3D comb filter is needed to separate luma from chroma since the LD video signal is stored as composite on the LaserDisc. It wasn't intended for lossy capture. http://www.diamondmm.com/tvw750pec-d...uner-card.html has simply the best 3D comb filter. The Panasonic DVD recorder is being used also as a 3D comb filter middleman. I'm not using it to record on DVD.

Should I post questions about Conexant based capture card here or create a new thread. The settings there are completely different.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
01-02-2017, 09:13 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 2,248
Thanks: 76
Thanked 598 Times in 548 Posts
Thanks for explaining. The Panasonic you mention has never been recommended as a pass-thru device, and for ny Panasonic unit you should turn off noise reduction. The only recommended Panasonic models for pass-thru are the ES10 and ES15, with the ES10 preferred and the ES15 a close second. Both are known to have effective 3D comb filters on their analog line inputs.

The only Conexant capture device I'm familiar with is the Diamond VC500 USB. The only other device you mentioned that I've actually used is the AIW 7500 (AGP version). Both devices have similar proc amp controls available through VirtualDub capture. I can't answer for the other products you mention, but I've seen other members mention them, so they'll probably be able to answer your other concerns.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: metaleonid (01-03-2017)
  #15  
01-02-2017, 09:46 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Fort Lee, New Jersey
Posts: 471
Thanks: 131
Thanked 17 Times in 15 Posts
Interesting. I based my decision on this thread.

And then Brad confirmed that ES25 has the same video processor as ES10 and ES15.

I didn't see noise reduction in settings, but when I see it, I will make sure to turn it off. Thanks.

However, now that you mentioned that ES25 is not recommended I have doubts, so I might as well get ES10.

Now for Conexant based device, here is what's going on. First off, I think sharpness should be set to minimum, i.e. 0. Take a look at both pictures ConexantSharpness0.JPG and ConexantSharpness50.JPG

As for histogram, it doesn't show crushed blacks at all. No matter what I do, I don't see any red on the left except for tiny little red stripe. Right now I set Brightness to 6286 for the most white frame I found. Increasing it will cause red appear on the right of the histogram. Should I return it to 5000 and rather increase contrast until I see red on the right of the histogram?


Attached Images
File Type: jpg ConexantHistogramWhites.jpg (36.7 KB, 3 downloads)
File Type: jpg ConexantLevels.JPG (10.1 KB, 2 downloads)
File Type: jpg ConexantColors.JPG (19.5 KB, 3 downloads)
File Type: jpg ConexantSharpness0.JPG (57.8 KB, 4 downloads)
File Type: jpg ConexantSharpness50.JPG (59.8 KB, 4 downloads)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
01-03-2017, 04:46 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 2,248
Thanks: 76
Thanked 598 Times in 548 Posts
The red areas at the sides of typical luminance histograms indicate video data outside of the broadcast-safe range of y=16-235 (if you were measuring only chroma, the safe zone for chroma is 16-240, but these histograms don't measure chroma). Red outside of that safe range indicates data that will exceed RGB 0-255 when translated from YUV to RGB display. What you are measuring with y=16-235 is the way video is stored in a YUV system, not the way it will display on a PC, a TV screen, or in projection environments as RGB. A "tiny little red stripe" of red on the left of a histogram is generally a sign of the black border in a video frame, even if it's a thin border, or some similar element.

I'm certain there are a great many DVD recorders that have excellent 3D comb filters. I don't think anyone can answer for all of them. By "recommended for pass-thru" I refer to recorders that include line-sync circuitry that is effective during capture (it might be effective for recording inside the device, but not effective if a signal source is simply "played through" the unit into a capture device). If all you're looking for is a 3D comb filter that is effective for pass-thru use, I'm certain you'll find many units that will suffice as 3D comb filters, such as my own Toshiba RD-XS34 whose comb filter can be turned on and off. The XS34 also has a nominal capacity for line sync as pass-thru, but in that respect is more powerful than the line-level sync in a Panasonic ES20 but not as powerful as the ES10 or ES15. The digital video processor (encoder/decoder) in most Panasonics is a Panasonic-deigned chip used in most of their machines (except the ES20, which used the LSI chip). That processor doesn't include line-sync or frame-sync activity, which is another matter. As far as I know, LD players have no line sync problems on output.

I don't believe the discussion thread you referred to discusses line sync for pass-thru units. http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...hat-do-you-use

Different proc amps have different scale values in their sliders and dials, so there is no "absolute number" for all units nor is there is a single absolute value for every sample of every capture device, not even for different samples of the same product. There will be no absolute value for adjustment of every input signal from every input source, meaning actual program material as recorded to and played on a disc, a tape, a TV broadcast, or a DVD disc, etc.

The noise reduction on/off filter in most Panasonics that I'm familiar with is somewhere in the "display" settings. When turned on the Panasonic NR filters usually exhibit temporal ghosting, chroma smearing, and posterizing effects.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: metaleonid (01-03-2017)
  #17  
01-03-2017, 10:36 AM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Fort Lee, New Jersey
Posts: 471
Thanks: 131
Thanked 17 Times in 15 Posts
Hi Sanlyn,

Thanks.

Although I think Panasonic DMR ES-25 has the same video processing as ES-10, I'll try to get Panasonic DMR ES-10 just in case I am wrong. Unless someone is sure that they are identical in that respect. Note, that I don't need TBC for what I am doing because all LD players have TBC built in. Only 3D comb filter.

As far as Conexant based USB capture card, I can't find where I got it from anymore. I know that I got this USB stick for $20. Manufactured somewhere in China. But it does the job of capturing component video with VirtualDub 1.9 so it's all good. Now how do you recommend I adjust the levels for this Conexant USB stick to get as wide range on the right as possible but not exceed 235 for y. Should I return Brightness back to the center 128 and increase contrast instead? Or should I leave this as is? Thanks again.

PS. Hopefully when done, will provide the how-to guide for capturing from LDs.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
01-03-2017, 12:40 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 2,248
Thanks: 76
Thanked 598 Times in 548 Posts
Every capture device and every program source has its own requirements. If you're using VirtualDub you should make adjustments in conjunction with the histogram and proc amp controls. It's fiddly, I know, but it does work and is very accurate. You should use the crop filter to (temporarily) remove any black borders or other border noises that will throw off the histogram, if they exist. Don't forget to disable cropping by re-setting all crop margins to zero, or your capture will be cropped.

Brightness controls black levels (darks), contrast controls brights. They interact somewhat, but a little fiddling between the two will get you there.

The Toshiba RD-XS34 was a high-priced machine, that's overkill for a 3D comb filter. If the Panasonic you already own has one that works, just use it because as you noted you don't need line-tbc with an LD player.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: metaleonid (01-03-2017)
  #19  
01-03-2017, 09:46 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Fort Lee, New Jersey
Posts: 471
Thanks: 131
Thanked 17 Times in 15 Posts
Sanlyn, you're right. My DVD Recorder indeed had DNR on. It was in Display settings and not in Setup menu. Do you think this caused posterization artifacts?

As for settings. I made an adjustment to AIW 7500 starting with your settings of 147 for Brightness and 106 for Contrast. I had to increase Brightness to 151 and Contrast to 113.

With Conexant having DVD recorder setting input to Brighter rather than Darker, I set everything to default for Conexant except for Brightness that I set to 6260 (out of 10000) and Sharpness to 0.

I tested the 3D comb filter with Panasonic DMR ES-10 and it was awesome.

Attached are the pictures of that Conexant USB component video capture stick.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMG_2683.jpg (72.0 KB, 8 downloads)
File Type: jpg IMG_2684.jpg (59.3 KB, 5 downloads)
File Type: jpg IMG_2685.jpg (86.2 KB, 5 downloads)
File Type: jpg IMG_2686.jpg (66.8 KB, 4 downloads)
Reply With Quote
  #20  
01-03-2017, 09:58 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 2,248
Thanks: 76
Thanked 598 Times in 548 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by metaleonid View Post
Sanlyn, you're right. My DVD Recorder indeed had DNR on. It was in Display settings and not in Setup menu. Do you think this caused posterization artifacts?
Yes. I've read where the ES10 and ES15 look cleaner but, frankly, others who have tested many Pannies see no difference.

It's a little difficult to understand why you're spending so much time with the Conexant device when you have the ATI 7500 and its superior Rage Theater chipset. But to each his own.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: metaleonid (01-03-2017)
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Advanced VCR adjustments for VHS capture? JasonCA Capture, Record, Transfer 7 01-01-2013 09:56 PM
Capture video, then filter in MPEG for DVD? rocko Restore, Filter, Improve Quality 3 11-11-2012 01:49 PM
Video capture project, what direction is best? + Proc amp vs TBC + Best capture card? admin Project Planning, Workflows 11 06-16-2011 09:35 AM
Best VCR? Is a separate TBC or proc amp necessary? Capture card suggestions? lordsmurf Project Planning, Workflows 24 05-24-2011 07:39 PM
Advice on VHS capture setup (capture device, proc-amp, recommended connections) Simon76 Capture, Record, Transfer 12 12-23-2010 03:46 AM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:44 AM  —  vBulletin Copyright Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd