Quantcast Panasonic DMR-ES10 vs. ES25 posterization? - digitalFAQ Forum
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  #1  
01-25-2017, 02:56 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Hello,

This is going to be a short lived thread. I plan to remove it once I get a definite answer.

Do we have verdict whether the video processor for these 2 are the same? The complain was that image passed through ES-25 would result in posterization artifact.

Was it the same thing with ES-10?

Thanks.

--Leonid
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  #2  
01-26-2017, 11:16 AM
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It does.

The posterization (color palette compression) on the ES10 is ever-present, but is minimized when the advanced processing is disabled. It is worse and more noticeable on some sources, and hard to detect on others.

As a cartoon collector, I've always liked to test DVD recorders with toons. Both home recordings and retail VHS releases. A dark CG show like Transformers Beast Wars really shows off the posterization/compression. It's ugly. But a colorful show like Thundercats is almost impossible to detect. The live action (or real life), it depends on the source, as to how easy it is to see.

I've also wondered if chip heat makes a difference.

That's why it's best to only use it for tearing, not as a general TBC replacement. Use it when the net effect is better video (ie, to remove tearing from the video).

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  #3  
01-26-2017, 12:58 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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The ES25 is an ES15 with HDMi added. TBC in the ES25 is not nearly as powerful as the ES15, and the ES15 is slightly less powerful than the ES10 in that respect. If you're considering using any of these units for tbc pass-thru, go with the ES10 and turn off its dnr. The ES25 tends to blow out whites to a worse degree than earlier Panasonics.

Posterizing effects can appear with many components using legacy (old-fashioned) dnr and is usually countered with several techniques in Avisynth.
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  #4  
01-30-2017, 08:51 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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I see. So posterization then does exist on ES-10 and is carried over to ES-25 then. That means I will not be buying ES-10 since I already have ES-25 and will be using with LDs only which already have built-in TBC. Both ES-10 and ES-25 use this video processor: C1AB00001979

Sanlyn, I will ask you later how to counter posterization with AVISynth.

As for blowing up whites... it's interesting. I was capturing a short video fragment from Video Essentials using various workflows. Only one workflow which had ES-25 as a middle man blocked whites from blowing up. More later.

Thank you Sanlyn and Lordsmurf.
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  #5  
01-30-2017, 09:26 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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If you're thinking of recording to a lossy codec like MPEG with the ES25 recorder and then trying to clean it up with Avisynth, someone else will have to help with that. MPEG2 is not a restoration or cleanup format. It's a final delivery format. Cleanup is one thing, but making the work three times tougher with lossy encoding is something else. I'd just record it and leave it as-is. Trying to clean up posterization effects with lossy encoded video will only make it look worse. Just be sure to turn off the ES25's dnr to minimize the problem.
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  #6  
01-30-2017, 09:37 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Oh, no. Only Huffyuv AVI. ES-25 has component out and I have an excellent Conexant based USB stick with components in. I was talking about how to clean up lossless AVI should I encounter posterization artifact.
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  #7  
01-30-2017, 09:41 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I see. I guess I'm confused. If you don't need tbc pass-thru and you're capping with VirtualDub, what's the ES25 for?
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  #8  
01-30-2017, 09:52 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Oh, ok. So I'm trying to get the best possible capture from the LaserDiscs. I have 2 Pioneer LD players: Elite LD-S2 and CLD-D703. The Elite one is considered the best with very low noise. But it triggers AGC when I connect it to ATI Theater 750. The non elite one which has noisier image doesn't trigger AGC. So my second choice is then LD-S2 (composite out)->DMR ES-25-> Conexant component in. DMR ES-25 acts as motion adaptive 3d comb filter.

I am also going to be capturing directly into S-Video (the 2nd capture) without middleman. Just in case if someone later comes up with motion adaptive 3d comb filter as AVISynth plugin.

PS. ATI Theater 750 has the best motion adaptive 3d comb filter.

PPS. The interesting thing I noticed is that all these motion adaptive 3d comb filters do very good job on Snell & Wilcox motion display. But when it comes to real life even with color bars, they perform very well in one areas but poorly in others compared to just regular 2d filters.
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  #9  
02-01-2017, 01:24 AM
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I want to add something.

The DMR-ES10 is stronger [in line TBC terms] than the AVT-8710 aka Cypress CTB-100, and much stronger than the DataVideo TBCs. The side effect of strength is processing noises. Nothing is transparent. The AVT has issues, the DataVideos have issues. So I want to soften my stance on the ES10 -- especially after some really ugly testing I did this past week.

Line TBCs (VCRs) are really weak compared to the (usually) external frame sync TBCs. Remember, the ES10 was an odd duck, rare ability. Only some Toshibas are claimed to also have the ability, but are mired in IRE issues.

I plan to write up a long guide with ample samples.

In brief:

AVT-8710 / Cypress CTB-100
pro: stronger than DataVideo, weak proc amp included
con: checkboard / dotcrawl-like patterns [can affect some units], overheats easily, IRE/levels can run hot

DataVideo
pro: tends to be clean, metal body that keeps it cool, best color/values
con: can be soft, odd slight noise pattern common (hard to explain), can have image offset

ES10
pro: one of strongest [line] TBCs to date, prevents tearing
con: posterization, 6-hour auto cutoff by recorder (must reboot), bad caps possible, IRE not perfect, [non-TBC frame sync]

I want to comment on Kramer, Leitch/DPS, and some others.

The only real crap TBC is the [more common latter production] Big Voodoo; it's total junk, lots of issues. [And all the flawed chipset Cypress; black AVT-8710, etc]And the all the so-called "TBCs" in DV boxes and most cameras do both diddly and squat

All of these really depend heavily on the source tape (both content and signal condition), the exact unit, the power, the capture card, the wires, and some others I may be forgetting.

The goal is better video, not perfect. All of these meet that goal.

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Last edited by kpmedia; 09-05-2021 at 01:06 PM. Reason: [added updates] for clarification
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  #10  
02-13-2017, 08:33 PM
kerplunk64 kerplunk64 is offline
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Hi lordsmurf, I've just purchased a DMR-ES10 (Haven't received it yet) & I'm up to page 5 on reading everything posted on this model.
In previous threads it has been mentioned to add something like a CBT-100 to the chain when capturing video but you have mentioned on your post that the DMR-ES10 is stronger than the CBT-100.
I was going to purchase the CBT-100, do I need it? I only have a lousy easycap USB capture at the moment.
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02-13-2017, 09:31 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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You need the CBT-100 if you have Macrovision copy=protected tapes. The DMR-ES10 has both line-level and frame-level tbc functions. If you don't have copy protected tapes, save your money and get rid of the crummy EasyCap. You can buy better capture cards for half its price.
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02-13-2017, 10:40 PM
kerplunk64 kerplunk64 is offline
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Thank you sanlyn, unfortunately I have a low profile PC that won't take a capture card, I think I will still buy the CBT-100.
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  #13  
02-13-2017, 10:55 PM
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Don't use the Easycap (easycrap) USB stick. Almost anything is better. It destroys color, contrast. IRE, gamma, and other image values. It is riddled with image problems.

TBCs are complicated. The more you learn, the less you realize you know!

The ES10 is not a 100% true TBC. In order to appease to copyright trolls/zealots in the entertainment industry, it was crippled. A hole was essentially bored into it. Now remember, anti-copy/Macrovision is simply replicating actual signal/image errors. It's artificial. That's why a 100% true TBC pays it no mind, as it's supposed to remove errors.

If you have a really bad tape, the ES10 will choke. And, of course, any tape "protected" (raped*) by anti-copy/MV will not work. Errors can range from everything to corrupted chroma/luma values to dropped frames, to outright refusal to pass a signal. This is especially prevalent on S-VHS-ET tapes, which most people do not use (or have ever heard of).

But it serves as an excellent TBC for many [SP mode camera-shot homemade tapes. It's a budget TBC option.]

It is stronger.
- Sometimes that's good; for example, removing tearing.
- Sometimes not; smearing/posterization, not caused by the NR.

It's worth having.

In fact, I'm using mine this very minute. That tape had ugly tearing. Now it has none!

* Realize that Macrovision can almost never be 100% ignored or removed, as it often degrades the image in various ways. It tries to corrupt the AGC, but doing so requires it to screw with luma/chroma. It's not just timing errors that are introduced. It also varies from copy to copy of the same title.

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Last edited by kpmedia; 09-05-2021 at 01:08 PM. Reason: [updates added for clarification]
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  #14  
02-13-2017, 11:46 PM
kerplunk64 kerplunk64 is offline
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Thanks lordsmurf, a tape I have from the 80's taped off the TV might possibly have mv. Like you said the easycrap does not give you any decent capture whatsoever to determine mv or not. I don't want to stray way off topic but what would remove the mv if it's there as it's a historical tape the family really want to see again?
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  #15  
02-13-2017, 11:54 PM
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You need an actual TBC. Right now, I have two available: the Kramer FC-400 and the TBC-1000 [listed in the marketplace subforum]. Or send the tape to a service (like us), and let them do it.

This is still sort-of on-topic. The posterization is due to the TBC ... which isn't actually a 100% TBC. It's a processing byproduct/artifact.

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  #16  
03-18-2017, 09:38 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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There were some comparisons in a VH thread where the guy was capping CED which showed that the "Lighter/Darker" settings heavily impacted the level of posterization. Actually, I may have been the one who posted them... Can't look right now.
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  #17  
03-18-2017, 10:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
There were some comparisons in a VH thread where the guy was capping CED which showed that the "Lighter/Darker" settings heavily impacted the level of posterization. Actually, I may have been the one who posted them... Can't look right now.
That sounds right.
I think it's catch-22. Proper brightness levels, more posterization.

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  #18  
05-01-2017, 12:44 PM
Maris 55 Maris 55 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
There were some comparisons in a VH thread where the guy was capping CED which showed that the "Lighter/Darker" settings heavily impacted the level of posterization. Actually, I may have been the one who posted them... Can't look right now.
Hello,
I have the DMR-ES10 EB PAL version. Can it be that it don't have the Lighter/Darker setting? At least I think I have not seen it anywhere. Maybe it exists only in NTSC version of ES10?
Maris
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  #19  
05-01-2017, 02:18 PM
metaleonid metaleonid is offline
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Are you sure? Did you go to the main menu? Video tab?
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  #20  
05-01-2017, 06:45 PM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maris 55 View Post
I have the DMR-ES10 EB PAL version. Can it be that it don't have the Lighter/Darker setting?
I think you're right. I can't find any such setting in the manual. It wouldn't be used for PAL input, so I guess they dropped the option. Hopefully the defaults are good for NTSC.
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