Quantcast Squiggly lines after encoding video? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
05-14-2017, 09:44 AM
JoRodd JoRodd is offline
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I searched for this topic or something similar and was unable to find a solution.

My setup - Panny AG-1980 -> AVT-8710 -> Lagarith capture -> Filters - Camcorder Color Denoise (30) -> Temporal Smoother (3).

I am converting an NFL game to DVD. After the encode, I notice 'squiggly' lines around the player numbers and the yard-lines. It looks like it is tearing. I am working with an SLP master tape.

I am using Virtualdub as Avisynth is beyond my comprehension.

Is there a way to minimize or eliminate this effect?

Here is a sample.

Original = Panny AG-1980 -> AVT-8710 -> ATI TV Wonder 600 USB -> Lagarith.

With Filters = VirtualDub, Camcorder Color Denoise (30) -> Temporal Smoother (3).

Sorry. I am obviously doing something wrong with the file upload. #Dense Fixed. -LS


Attached Files
File Type: rar SB 23 Sample (Original).part1.rar (99.00 MB, 8 downloads)
File Type: rar SB 23 Sample (Original).part2.rar (37.90 MB, 7 downloads)
File Type: rar SB 23 Sample (With Filters).part1.rar (99.00 MB, 2 downloads)
File Type: rar SB 23 Sample (With Filters).part2.rar (52.68 MB, 2 downloads)
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  #2  
05-14-2017, 09:54 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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No video sample, not even a screenshot. You're asking us to take a stab in the dark. Fixed -LS
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  #3  
05-15-2017, 02:41 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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There doesn't appear to be a sample attached. In order to see the attachment dialog window, you have to be in advanced reply view, so click on the "Go Advanced" button that's along the bottom of the Quick Reply window. After you've used the attachment dialog to navigate to a sample file on your computer, click the upload button and give the sample time to upload. It might take a minute or two, then close the dialog window and submit the reply.

If you have applied filters to a sample, give us more detail about what processing you've done. Just to say "filters" isn't enough info. ,You might also consider submitting an unfiltered original sample that hasn't been altered, to get detailed advice on a better filtering procedure if necessary.

A sample will be a smaller file if it's saved in VitualDub with huffyuv or Lagarith compression. To save it that way, set up your colorspace using "Video" -> "color depth..." (YUY2 will do). Then set "Video" -> "compression..." to Lagarith. Save the sample using "Video" -> "fast recompress", then "Save AVI...".

If you want to submit an original cut without any filters or other alteration, and in the original compression and colorspace as captured, save the sample using "Video" -> "direct stream copy" mode.

-- merged --

Thanks for the samples.

Actually your title shouldn't be "squiggly lines after encode", but squiggly lines before encode. This doesn't look like a first generation tape. If it is, your AG's tbc is either turned off or not working. The top quarter of the frames is mistracking, in any case, and the overall shimmer and excessive interlace combing are serious. Your sample also has invalid luma levels, some very bad highlight blowouts that can't be corrected (no levels control during capture), a contrast range that can't be managed by digital media, an obvious red-yellow color cast, and looks over-sharpened by either the original dubbing player or the Panny. Is this the way the tape looks when played on TV?

BTW, neither CamcorderColorDenoise nor temporalsmoother will address these problems. You might be able to slightly smooth some things a bit and can address some combing issues in Avisynth, but there's nothing in VirtualDub that will improve this video. It looks like a multi-generation tape that was dubbed without benefit of a line tbc, in which case the squiggles are permanent. All your AG-1980 could do in that regard is keep it from looking worse.

Some tapes are in such bad shape there's not much one can do. Hopefully you have better sources to work with.
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  #4  
05-17-2017, 06:03 AM
JoRodd JoRodd is offline
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@sanlyn - Upon further review, you were right. This tape does appear to be a second gen with the errors already existing from the original transfer (I was told they were "masters"). Thanks for the lesson and sorry for wasting anyone's time with this. The tapes have gone on to a better place.
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  #5  
05-17-2017, 06:54 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoRodd View Post
Thanks for the lesson and sorry for wasting anyone's time with this. The tapes have gone on to a better place.
Youi're welcome. Learning something new is never a waste of time. Now you and others know something more about how to spot video problems, which many will find useful.

Sometimes a godawful tape has personal value that outweighs its faults, so don't discount the possibility of future improvements in processing digital captures if you encounter such problems again.
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  #6  
05-17-2017, 07:07 AM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
The top quarter of the frames is mistracking
What are you seeing there? Nothing stands out to my eye.

Quote:
excessive interlace combing.
What does this mean?
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  #7  
05-17-2017, 07:19 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I don't know how you're viewing the video sample but the defects should be obvious. The top 1/3 of mistracking is most obvious with the distortion in the grandstands during the opening frames.

Excessive combing means exactly that. Try cleaning up the combing artifacts in motion frames and you'll see what it means. It';s to to very bad playback and recording during dubbing.
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  #8  
05-17-2017, 07:33 AM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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Quote:
The top 1/3 of mistracking is most obvious with the distortion in the grandstands during the opening frames.
What sort of distortion? It seems to flicker, but that's all that jumps out.

Quote:
Excessive combing means exactly that. Try cleaning up the combing artifacts in motion frames and you'll see what it means.
Isn't combing just the result of playing interlaced video on a progressive display?
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  #9  
05-17-2017, 07:39 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Sorry you can;'t see it. The border of the grandstand is distorted and wiggles worse than the rest of the image.

Deinterlace it and you'll see aliasing and combing in the fast play near the end. Lack of line tbc and bad tracking ruined the video. Deinterlace it and it's broken and ragged edges, ghosting, and smearing.
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  #10  
05-17-2017, 07:52 AM
koberulz koberulz is offline
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Ah...I can kind of see something on the left edge of the grandstand wall. I think the flickering is just too overwhelming for my eyes to track whatever it is you're seeing.
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  #11  
05-17-2017, 07:56 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Yes, it also flickers as if the tape were "pausing" or jerking along the heads. Pretty awful playback.
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  #12  
05-20-2017, 10:00 AM
JoRodd JoRodd is offline
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Let's try this again.

This tape is definitely a SLP master captured from AG-1980 (TBC on) to AVT-8710 to ATI TV Wonder USB.
  • Original - Unfiltered
  • Filters I - Camcorder Color Denoise (30) -> Temporal Smoother (3).
  • Filters II - Temporal Cleaner (settings cut in half), Deflicker (default settings)
  • NEAT - Neatvideo at 58% with Luminance at 30%

Maybe I am overthinking this but I am not happy with the results. Feedback and suggestions (more than) welcome.


Attached Files
File Type: avi 2000 WS Game 1 (Original).avi (84.70 MB, 12 downloads)
File Type: rar 2000 WS Game 1 (with FILTERS I).part1.rar (99.00 MB, 0 downloads)
File Type: rar 2000 WS Game 1 (with FILTERS I).part2.rar (56.43 MB, 0 downloads)
File Type: rar 2000 WS Game 1 (with FILTERS II).part1.rar (99.00 MB, 0 downloads)
File Type: rar 2000 WS Game 1 (with FILTERS II).part2.rar (69.47 MB, 0 downloads)
File Type: rar 2000 WS Game 1 (NEAT).part1.rar (99.00 MB, 3 downloads)
File Type: rar 2000 WS Game 1 (NEAT).part2.rar (14.85 MB, 2 downloads)
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  #13  
05-20-2017, 09:02 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Thanks again for supplying samples.

What are you using for a capture device? The device has the same clipping at y=16 seen in the earlier sample, among other problems.

Do you know how to control input luma levels?

This sample has some of the same problems as the earlier ones. If this is a master tape (and I don't think it is), one can only conclude that either (a) it was recorded on a VCR with serious alignment and tracking problems, or (b) this level of detail loss, motion noise, chroma ghosting, and shimmer on an original master tape couldn't be caused by an AG-1980 with a working tbc and dnr. Also, the kind of aliasing seen here could be caused only by improper deinterlacing or field phase problems. The filters you are using, particularly NeatVideo, don't address any of these glitches.

In the second shot looking toward home plate, the bright streaks in the blue railing in the background are reflections from camera flashes (obvious in frame 259).
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  #14  
05-21-2017, 12:32 AM
JoRodd JoRodd is offline
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Thanks for your feedback.
Quote:
What are you using for a capture device? The device has the same clipping at y=16 seen in the earlier sample, among other problems.
I am using the ATI TV Wonder 600 USB connected to a USB 3.0 input. Is it not configured correctly somehow?

Quote:
Do you know how to control input luma levels?
No

Quote:
This sample has some of the same problems as the earlier ones. If this is a master tape (and I don't think it is), one can only conclude that either (a) it was recorded on a VCR with serious alignment and tracking problems, or (b) this level of detail loss, motion noise, chroma ghosting, and shimmer on an original master tape couldn't be caused by an AG-1980 with a working tbc and dnr.
This tape is a master but it was recorded on a crappy RCA tape. I just had my AG-1980 serviced by Tom Grant and he gave a clean bill of health.

Quote:
Also, the kind of aliasing seen here could be caused only by improper deinterlacing or field phase problems. The filters you are using, particularly NeatVideo, don't address any of these glitches.
In the second shot looking toward home plate, the bright streaks in the blue railing in the background are reflections from camera flashes (obvious in frame 259).
Is there anything I can do?
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  #15  
05-21-2017, 09:03 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Will try to come up wijh some ideas and post them a little later today. But you can't improve much with VirtualDub alone. You'll need help from Avisynth.
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  #16  
05-21-2017, 09:16 AM
JoRodd JoRodd is offline
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How can I be sure that I am capturing the video correctly in the first place? You mentioned that there may be an issue with my capture device.
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  #17  
05-21-2017, 12:09 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Your postings are examples of damaged video recorded with an unsuitable original VCR. Your AG-1980 has smoothed some problems about as well as a high-end VHS player is able, but even a high-end VCR is not itself a complete processing component. VirtualDub is essential for cleanup, but so is Avisynth. Each can accomplish what the other can't. I used Avisynth and VirtualDub alike to make the images and the video samples attached -- not a perfect fix, but with visible improvement.

On the left of the image below is part of the original frame 140 of your latest sample, with the same area of the filtered frame 140 on the right. The image on the left has arrows pointing to some of the original problems. The lower left-hand arrow points to a ragged border with a bright edge ghost. Bright edge ghosts are also seen on the pitcher along with a dark oversharpening halo on the right side of bright objects and a dark oversharpening halo on the left side of bright objects. Because the contrast range is beyond the ability of digital video to manage it properly, you can also see bright highlight hot-spots that look unnatural. The right-hand image shows the filtered results, at least as well as can be seen in comparison still images.



For the above cleanup I used AVisynth and VirtualDub filters. In Avisynth, the QTGMC deinterlacer smooth noise, some of the aliasing and shimmer, using settings for cleanup that would keep reasonable detail and reduce oversharpening. Avisynth's "FixVHSoversharp" was used to thin the dark edge halos on the right and left of bright objects. Avisynth's ColorYUV was used to calm luma levels and hot-spots (unfortunately there is bright clipping during capture that can't be recovered. See notes later in this post). Avisynth's RemoveDirtMC plugin calmed panning noise a little more and removed a few horizontal ripples or streaks (dropouts), notably around frame 140. Avisynth's awarpsharp tightened edges and reduced chroma edge ghosts, and santiag() further reduced aliasing.

Virtualdub's exorcists filter was used to calm the right-hand edge ghosts, which can't be eliminated completely but isn't so prominent as in the original. VitualDub's ColorMill was used to correct the green color cast in blacks. To the output of the Avisynth script in VirtualDub I added VirtualDub's smart smoother v1.1 by Donald Graft, at default settings.

The video samples are not re-interlaced. There is no way to fix the serious interlace and field misalignment problems from the original VCR. I encoded the results two ways: the mp4 is h.264 with deblocking enabled (with some reduced detail as a result) for internet posting and external non-optical-disc playback. The MPG is progressive video encoded with interlace flags for DVD disc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JoRodd View Post
How can I be sure that I am capturing the video correctly in the first place? You mentioned that there may be an issue with my capture device.
Clipping super-blacks is a minor problem, easy to work around with input level controls. Level controls during capture are a problem because your samples have invalid luma values that exceed RGB 255. Levels are controlled with either a proc amp or with VirtualDub's hook-in to your ATI 600's proc amp controls. If you haven't seen the following links, Levels and contrast control and using VirtualDub's capture histogram are covered here: Capturing with VirtualDub [Settings Guide]. The hook-in to ATI's proc amp controls and setup are covered here Capturing with VirtualDub [Settings Guide].

The image below is the same original frame 140 section shown earlier, with an Avisynth YUV histogram at its right. The arrow in the upper right-hand portion of that histogram points to bright levels extending beyond y=235. The unshaded portion of that histogram is the safe target area for levels. The top (white) band in that histogram shows luma brightness levels. The desired luma range inside the unshaded safe area corresponds to y=16 to 235, which in RGB is expanded to 0-255. YUV is the way digital video is stored. RGB is the way video is displayed.



The image below is the filtered frame 140 with contrast corrected in YUV to y=16-235:



Avisynth and Virtualdub pose a learning curve, along with more plugins that you're not likely familiar with. I'm posting here the Avisynth script I used for the mp4 and MPG version. I don't expect you to understand much of it, but it's here for readers who will request it anyway. If you want to pursue this area further, it will take some work but people here are certainly willing to help. It's a slightly longer than average script but it works hard.

Code:
AviSource("2000 WS Game 1 (Original).avi")

ColorYUV(off_y=-8,cont_y=-20,gamma_y=10)
AssumeTFF()
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
QTGMC(preset="slow",EZDenoise=8,denoiser="dfttest",ChromaMotion=true,\
  DenoiseMC=true,ChromaNoise=true,border=true,GrainRestore=0.2,sharpness=0.8)
vInverse()
Santiag(2,2)

ConvertToYUY2(interlaced=false)
FixVHSOversharp(20,16,12)
FixVHSOversharp(20,8,4)
FixVHSOversharpL(20,12,8)

ConvertToYV12(interlaced=false)
MergeChromA(awarpsharp2(depth=30))
SelectEven()
SeparateFields()
a=last
e=a.selecteven().RemoveDirtMC(40)
o=a.selectodd().RemoveDirtMC(40)
Interleave(e,o)
Weave()

LoadVirtualDubPlugin("D:\VirtualDub\plugins\exorcist.vdf","exorcist" ,1)
LoadVirtualDubPlugin("D:\VirtualDub\plugins\ColorMill.vdf","ColorMill" ,1)
ConvertToRGB32(interlaced=false,matrix="Rec601")
exorcist(7,-15)
ColorMill(22640, 25688, 25700, 25700, 28772, 25700, 25700, 25700, 25700, 25700, 26724, 51300, 25700, 1124, 5)
Crop(12,0,-6,-4).AddBorders(10,2,8,2)
return last
### -------------------------------------------------------------------- ###
### --- Virtualdub SmartSmoother v1.1 (Donald Graft) added to output --- ###


Attached Images
File Type: jpg original vs filtered A.jpg (170.5 KB, 25 downloads)
File Type: jpg f140 original YUV A.jpg (113.2 KB, 25 downloads)
File Type: jpg f140 filtered YUV.jpg (91.2 KB, 25 downloads)
Attached Files
File Type: mp4 WS2K_00RDpe_Asmart_P.mp4 (5.96 MB, 2 downloads)
File Type: mpg WS2K_00RDpe_Asma_PI.mpg (8.23 MB, 2 downloads)
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  #18  
05-21-2017, 05:17 PM
JoRodd JoRodd is offline
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Boy, do I have a LOT to learn.

Many, many thanks for taking the time to help me with this. Very much appreciated.
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  #19  
05-21-2017, 06:25 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoRodd View Post
Boy, do I have a LOT to learn.
Oh, well, you onlyl have to learn it once. Like riding the old bicycle, as they say. Everyone started somewhere. I started pretty far back {Duh, you can record old tapes to a computer? Really?).

Most tapes need some cleanup, but on average with a good player like yours they don't need as much as shown here. I had plenty of tapes that were worse.

BTW, I do use NeatVideo quite often and have done so for years. But no filter is a cure-all. NeatVideo has very specific and important uses, so keep it handy.

Wish that sample had not been so ornery, but as I said some things you just have to live with. I've been there many times. I'm there now, in fact, with a favorite tape that fell victim to bad cable, cheap recorders, and cheap tape, and is driving me bananas. Don't feel alone.
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  #20  
05-25-2017, 04:53 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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NeatVideo is too often like killing an ant bed with an a-bomb. It's too powerful. Not good powerful, but bad powerful. It can create just as many problems as it fixed. I would always first attempt Avisynth.

sanlyn has done an excellent job for you in this post.

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