VCR picture rolling when capturing video?

[JamieStar99]

Hello everyone,

I recently bought a VCR to convert some of my old home videos to digital. The unit is an inexpensive Sharp VC-MH711. I'm recording the output into an EasyCap USB device using VirtualDub.

I'm having a problem with some of the older tapes though - when viewing the footage, the image will begin to roll, and after a while correct itself (bounce into place), it will then displace itself again, and sometimes roll for several seconds before correcting itself. It does this all the way through so the footage is unusable.

I've tried fast forwarding and rewinding the tape in its entirety to reset the tension on the spools but this does nothing. The only way I've found around this is to adjust the tracking on the VCR until the rolling disappears, but this introduces an annoying noise distortion to the image, most noticable at the bottom of the frame, as well as a grainy distortion over the entire image. The image loses its clean, uniform appearance. However, this is the only way I've found to record these tapes without the rolling effect kicking in.

I've been doing some reading and keep hearing about VCRs with a TBC built in which can aid in stabilizing the output image. Is this something that could help? If not, how do I go about capturing this footage in its full quality without the rolling taking place? Any help would be much appreciated.

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieStar99

I recently bought a VCR to convert some of my old home videos to digital. The unit is an inexpensive Sharp VC-MH711. I'm recording the output into an EasyCap USB device using VirtualDub.

I'm having a problem with some of the older tapes though - when viewing the footage, the image will begin to roll, and after a while correct itself (bounce into place), it will then displace itself again, and sometimes roll for several seconds before correcting itself. It does this all the way through so the footage is unusable.

Cheap VCR? Cheap EasyCap (aka EasyCrap) spinoff? No surprises here. You could at least have used a genuine, original EZCap, which themselves are inferior goods to begin with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieStar99

I've been doing some reading and keep hearing about VCRs with a TBC built in which can aid in stabilizing the output image. Is this something that could help?

Yes. Better VCRs are equipped with line-level tbc's that correct image distortion due to scanline timing errors, and better tracking has a more stable image to begin with. Also required is an external frame-level tbc that cleans the signal stream, adds more stabilization thru corrected frame timing, prevents dropped/inserted frames, frame jitter, and improves a/v sync. The reason you "keep hearing about" these devices is because there's nothing exotic about them -- they are standard equipment used for decades by millions of hobbyists and pros around the world for VHS capture.

[lordsmurf]

The problem is as sanlyn stated:
- cheap consumer VHS VCR
- infamous low-quality EasyCap devices
- no external TBC

Video is finicky. Specific hardware is required to do a good job, or even work at all.

I still have a complete workflow available (JVC S-VHS, TBC, ATI capture card): http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/mark...-workflow.html. PM me if interested. (Hint: You can always buy it, use it, resell it.)

When you see what a quality setup can do, you're going to want to recapture all your tapes.

[JamieStar99]

Thanks for the info. I'm seeing if I can get my hands on a JVC HR-S7600EK which from all the reading I've done, seems like it would be a fair step up from the Sharp I have now what with the built in TBC and applied DNR.

I realize the EasyCap is rubbish - is there a specific USB capture device you can recommend? There seems to be a million different variations of these devices around with little to no information.

[sanlyn]

Hauppauge USB Live-2
ATI 600 USB (up to Win7)
Diamond Multimedia VC500
All are compatible with VirtualDub and AmarecTV capture software for lossless or encoded capture.

Most cheap EasyCrap spinoffs are low-quality ripoffs of circuitry in one or all of those models.

[lordsmurf]

ATI 600 USB is good through Windows 10.

[JamieStar99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordsmurf

ATI 600 USB is good through Windows 10.

These are virtually impossible to get hold of where I am. I have however invested in a JVC S7955 and a Hauppage USB Live 2.

The capture picture still rolls and bounces vertically in the same sections of tape as the old deck, so I don't know whether this calls for an external full frame TBC, or if these tapes are too far gone from having been recorded over so many times.

Another problem I have now is the DNR on the JVC deck is perhaps a bit TOO effective, and whilst it cleans the image up very nicely, it introduces a softness that seems to get rid of all the fine detail, particularly with the older tapes which weren't all that sharp to begin with. And from what I can see, I can't disable the in-line DNR without switching off the TBC altogether!

Fun and games

[sanlyn]

If your tapes are recorded at low bandwidth 4-hour or 6 hours, JVC isn't a good choice. Better off with a mainstream Panasonic even if it doesn't have DNR and tbc. You can get line tbc and nominal frame sync with a pass-thru unit such as a Pansonic ES10 or ES15 (but turn off the Panny's noise reduction). Those two units have powerful line tbc, decent frame sync, and very good conversion to s-video with 3D comb filters if you're stuck with composite output from the VCR. Some tapes are in such bad shape (I had several of them) that they required a non-dnr VCR, a DMR-ES10 for pass thru, an external frame tbc, and patient post-capture processing in Avisynth and VirtualDub. JVC's noise reduction can be very primitive and destructive on some models. Post-processing noise filters and sharpeners are far more sophisticated and less destructive. Some tapes are just in bad shape and/or were poorly recorded, which is where losssless capture and restoration work comes in.

If it's a really awful tape you might consider having a pro make a lossless capture for you, which you can clean up to your heart's content.

Many websites and blogs lead you to believe that this business of VHS processing is child's play and any old push-button method will work just fine. Nothing could be farther from the truth -- and those websites just read like copy-cat work to me, posted by dudes who are clueless about quality and never made a capture in their lives. You can tell from the first sentence that they have no idea what they're writing about.

...and by the way:

You still need a an external frame sync tbc, or one of the suggested pass-thru units.

[JamieStar99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

...and by the way:

You still need a an external frame sync tbc, or one of the suggested pass-thru units.

I'm not sure how much it will help (and how much I'm willing to spend). The tapes have been re-recorded over so many times and have aged pretty badly. Some of them actually creak and squeak in the deck and it's introducing hum and whine into the audio signal which I'm then having to notch filter out.

Some tapes only have the occasional vertical shake, on others its persistent and visible when connected to a CRT TV.

[sanlyn]

If the stutter and rolling are part of the original dubbed recording, nothing willfix it. If it's caused by poor tape condition or playback in an inferior player, tbc's are required. There's noting new about this. TBC's are standard requirements for analog capture. There are many tbc models -- pass-thru units are in popular use and cost less than a pro-grade external tbc but they do pretty much the same things. If you're not willing to subscribe to the universal way of doing these things, you have two choices: either have someone else do it for you, or live with the results.

Four Excellent videos showing the exact effects of time base errors & TBC

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieStar99

I'm not sure how much it will help (and how much I'm willing to spend). The tapes have been re-recorded over so many times and have aged pretty badly. Some of them actually creak and squeak in the deck and it's introducing hum and whine into the audio signal which I'm then having to notch filter out.

Ouch. Yep, been there. This is one of the few times that external framesync TBC actually helps, because you do have whole-frame issues. And the the field TBC in a Panasonic helps more than the JVC line TBC in most cases of the very specific nature.

This is why you were never suppose to reuse a tape. Even degaussed tapes never truly refreshed.

This is also one area where I've seen the ES10 go bonkers. It doesn't know how to handle the severe errors cause by reused tapes.

One of my recent projects was this odd reverse interlacing problem from a super-unstable tape. The reason it was so unstable is because the S-VHS had been reused multiple times. The reason? S-VHS blanks were too expensive. I guess the person wasn't aware of the S-VHS on VHS trick (later named S-VHS-ET). Would have saved both bucks and quality.

[JamieStar99]

I went ahead and bought an AVT-8710 to run the JVC through on its way to the USB Live 2. To be honest, it's made things worse. I'm now getting some kind of ghosting / delay / frame skipping going on on pretty much all the tapes I've tried. Does anyone know what this is indicative of? I have attached a clip of the problem footage with the TBC on.

[BarryTheCrab]

JamieStarr99, sorry to inform you but the 8710 you bought is likely junk. I did the same thing, and had similar issues. This forum is LOADED with posts on the 8710 and how only the green models from waaay back years ago were any good, and they fetch a hefty premium nowadays. I returned mine and bought a TBC-1000 from LordSmurf. Speaking of his Lordiness, no doubt he will speak up more about this topic when he sees it. I am just a low-level member here (knowledge-wise anyway) and you will need more betterer smarterer input from the community here in order to best proceed.

[sanlyn]

Another new-edition AVT lemon, phooey. Unless you can get a legacy green/black model ffom the good old days prior to 2007, and one that still works (mine does), AVT isn't a good choice these days. The TBC-1000 or one of the more powerful ES10/ES15 models is known to work well (although ES10/15 won't defeat copy protection). I'd return that 8710 ASAP.

[JamieStar99]

Quote:

Originally Posted by sanlyn

Another new-edition AVT lemon, phooey. Unless you can get a legacy green/black model ffom the good old days prior to 2007, and one that still works (mine does), AVT isn't a good choice these days. The TBC-1000 or one of the more powerful ES10/ES15 models is known to work well (although ES10/15 won't defeat copy protection). I'd return that 8710 ASAP.

Fantastic.

[lordsmurf]

Quote:

Originally Posted by BarryTheCrab

betterer smarterer input

LOL.

I may have one last TBC available, need to take stock of what's left. Anybody interested must PM me.
Just a few VCRs and capture cards as well.
My well is running dry.

[hodgey]

Quote:

Originally Posted by JamieStar99

I went ahead and bought an AVT-8710 to run the JVC through on its way to the USB Live 2. To be honest, it's made things worse. I'm now getting some kind of ghosting / delay / frame skipping going on on pretty much all the tapes I've tried. Does anyone know what this is indicative of? I have attached a clip of the problem footage with the TBC on.

Looks exactly like how the one I got here behaves on some sources (primarily LP tapes, whether they're Hi8/V8 or VHS).