Go Back    Forum > Digital Video > Video Project Help > Restore, Filter, Improve Quality

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #21  
07-16-2018, 07:05 PM
Micheal81 Micheal81 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 24
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
With the VC500, should I capture at 720 x 480 and then resize to 640 x 480? I'm thinking that the resize should be last right after masking (Crop and Addborder). What resize filter should I use in Avisynth?
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #22  
07-16-2018, 07:34 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,509
Thanked 2,449 Times in 2,081 Posts
Yes, capture 720, resize last after all other processing.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #23  
07-16-2018, 09:15 PM
Micheal81 Micheal81 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 24
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Yes, capture 720, resize last after all other processing.
Which resize filter is good to use in Avisynth?
Reply With Quote
  #24  
07-17-2018, 05:46 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
The favored resizer has been Spline36Resize. Best compromise between clean detail retention and minimum artifacts. Be very careful resizing interlaced, telecined, or unfiltered video.

Capturing at 720 width gives you more horizontal resolution for later processing.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
07-17-2018, 05:47 AM
themaster1 themaster1 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: France
Posts: 497
Thanked 99 Times in 83 Posts
spline36 is fine:

avisource()
filters.....
spline36(1280,720) # example
Reply With Quote
  #26  
07-18-2018, 06:26 PM
Micheal81 Micheal81 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 24
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
I 'm trying to learn more about adjusting levels. I get that luminance values levels should be 16-235 to prevent clipping when expanded to RGB 0-255. I adjust the brightness and contrast before capture. Of course, scene to scene this can change so I get it pretty close. After capture, I need to manually tweak the values. Some scenes may have some pixels below or above 16 and/or below or above 235. Is there anything wrong with doing it this way?

Avisource("Video.avi")
AssumeTFF()
Levels(0,1.0,255,16,235,dither=true,coring=false)

If that is not really correct, then what should I use? Levels? ColorYUV? Tweak? Why? Can Autoadjust be good enough for my purposes with the right parameters? I'm using AVS+ if that matters.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
12-22-2018, 06:24 PM
Micheal81 Micheal81 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 24
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
So, as usual, life got in the way and I had to put this on hold for a few months. Time to try again.

I just bought an ES10 for about $50 and it should be here in about 1 week. I have the VC500 and a JVC HR-S3500U SVHS. I know the JVC is not one of the top recommended, but I got it for $5 at the thrift store and I figure it's better than what I had.

The SVHS has a "Video Stabilizer." Should this be on or off? It also has "Video Calibration." Should it be on or off? Is the "Tape Dub Mode" the same as "Edit Mode" that I've read about? If so, should it be on? I will turn the ES10's DNR off.

So I run a S-Video cable and red/white rca audio cables from the SVHS output to the ES10 rear input. Then from the ES10 rear output, run S-Video and audio cables to the VC500. Does this all sound correct?
Reply With Quote
  #28  
12-23-2018, 10:28 AM
ELinder ELinder is offline
Unconfirmed User
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 197
Thanked 33 Times in 27 Posts
From what I've been able to gather from reading threads here is that the current recommendations are for Video Calibration to be off. I can't tell from the manual if your VCR has any kind of TBC/NR, but I think not. If it does, turning on Video Stabilizer turns that off. I have a couple tapes that need it turned on for the tape to play properly. I've done test captures with the various options turned on and off, and frankly other than Video Stabilizer I have a very hard time seeing any difference in the captures, but then the tapes I'm using are fairly noise free, they're first generation, etc. Best way is to try the options yourself and see what you see.

Erich
Reply With Quote
  #29  
12-24-2018, 03:54 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Micheal81 View Post
I need to learn more about gamma adjustment. Where is some good info?
UNDERSTANDING GAMMA CORRECTION (Includes image examples. How gamma affects digital camera encoding is discussed, but take that with a grain of salt and scroll down to pay more attention to the pictures that illustrate gamma correction effects.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micheal81 View Post
I adjust the brightness and contrast before capture. Of course, scene to scene this can change so I get it pretty close. After capture, I need to manually tweak the values. Some scenes may have some pixels below or above 16 and/or below or above 235. Is there anything wrong with doing it this way?

Avisource("Video.avi")
AssumeTFF()
Levels(0,1.0,255,16,235,dither=true,coring=false)
It's good that you're paying attention to signal levels during capture. As for the sample code, no one can advise in detail without a sample of the video levels you're working with. Are you including black borders and head-switching noise in your assessment? Do you really want black borders to be y=16 (they will look gray on TV). Are you using a calibrated monitor to assess the final results?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micheal81 View Post
If that is not really correct, then what should I use? Levels? ColorYUV? Tweak? Why? Can Autoadjust be good enough for my purposes with the right parameters?
Those questions can't be answered without a sample of video that you're working with. You might have a scene that requires more or less contrast (that's where ColorYUV or Tweak might come in to play), and you should always assess signal levels after using auto filters like AutoAdjust.

The bigger problem is that your questions imply that you don't yet understand what brightness and contrast adjustments are doing. A sample of what you're trying to correct would make it easier to explain and understand.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Micheal81 View Post
So I run a S-Video cable and red/white rca audio cables from the SVHS output to the ES10 rear input. Then from the ES10 rear output, run S-Video and audio cables to the VC500. Does this all sound correct?
Yes. Be sure that you turn off the Panasonic's noise reduction. It creates more problems that it solves and is impossible to correct later. There are better denoisers available in post processing. Anyway, I never cared much for built-in player denoisers, most of which were designed for CRT displays and which at this stage are primitive and obsolete. The advantage of a high-end VCR is not so much its noise reduction, which many users turn off, but mainly that better players don't add more noise and defects to the output.

I keep re-reading the earlier posts but I still don't see why you're resizing. Is it for internet posting?
Reply With Quote
  #30  
12-24-2018, 04:46 AM
Micheal81 Micheal81 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 24
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
UNDERSTANDING GAMMA CORRECTION (Includes image examples. How gamma affects digital camera encoding is discussed, but take that with a grain of salt and scroll down to pay more attention to the pictures that illustrate gamma correction effects.)


It's good that you're paying attention to signal levels during capture. As for the sample code, no one can advise in detail without a sample of the video levels you're working with. Are you including black borders and head-switching noise in your assessment? Do you really want black borders to be y=16 (they will look gray on TV). Are you using a calibrated monitor to assess the final results?


Those questions can't be answered without a sample of video that you're working with. You might have a scene that requires more or less contrast (that's where ColorYUV or Tweak might come in to play), and you should always assess signal levels after using auto filters like AutoAdjust.

The bigger problem is that your questions imply that you don't yet understand what brightness and contrast adjustments are doing. A sample of what you're trying to correct would make it easier to explain and understand.


Yes. Be sure that you turn off the Panasonic's noise reduction. It creates more problems that it solves and is impossible to correct later. There are better denoisers available in post processing. Anyway, I never cared much for built-in player denoisers, most of which were designed for CRT displays and which at this stage are primitive and obsolete. The advantage of a high-end VCR is not so much its noise reduction, which many users turn off, but mainly that better players don't add more noise and defects to the output.

I keep re-reading the earlier posts but I still don't see why you're resizing. Is it for internet posting?
I'm resizing because I'm capturing old TV recordings that were 4:3. It's my understanding that you should capture at 720x480 and then after cropping and adding borders, to resize to 640x480. Is this wrong?

For denoising and chroma noise, I will be using the VHS Denoise script in the first post. I am pretty happy with the results.

I understand that brightness controls the black point and contrast the white point. You adjust the brightness until all or most the pixels are at or close to 16 and adjust the contrast so that the highest values are at or near 235. Is this wrong?

I will not be manually adjusting scene by scene. I will manually adjust so that overall each capture is close enough. I may then use AutoAdjust to get closer.

My monitor could probably use some calibration, but it is going to have to be by sight. I honestly don't know exactly how to do it. Do I use my graphics card settings? The Win10 calibration? The monitor controls? ICC profiles?
Reply With Quote
  #31  
01-08-2019, 07:17 PM
ralmino ralmino is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 10
Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post
Which one would be better then?

ATI 600 USB, ATI AIW USB or Diamond VC500 USB?
Reply With Quote
  #32  
01-08-2019, 09:53 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
Forget the AIW USB.
It's difficult to tell the difference between the ATI 600 USB and the Diamond VC500 USB. Many can tell the difference right away, especially with a histogram that shows black clipping at y=16 with the 600. But some people don't see that well, and others wouldn't know a histogram from a Popsicle. Both devices are decent performers for lossless capture. Any way you look at it, VHS requires cleanup after capture.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
01-08-2019, 10:04 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 13,509
Thanked 2,449 Times in 2,081 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ralmino View Post
Which one would be better then?
ATI 600 USB, ATI AIW USB or Diamond VC500 USB?
My preference is always AIW if using XP, and I prefer the USB over the PCIe. I prefer the separate audio of AGP/PCI, if using Turtle Beach Santa Cruz, but installing AGP/PCI can be a PITA. The USB is more straight-forward, only 1 driver exists, XP only, and it actually works with laptops via VirtualDub (though MMC is hit-or-miss).

I'm just not a VC500 fan, seen too many weird things. I wonder if it's like some Hauppauge products, where the chip shifted mid-production. Perhaps we need to start cracking open cards that have odd reports and samples?

The 600 is obviously good, as are many (not all) of the clones/near-clones.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
Reply With Quote
  #34  
01-29-2019, 08:37 PM
Micheal81 Micheal81 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 24
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Now that I have better equipment, I want to take this one step at a time. I'm using the ES10 for pass-through.

The clip titled "No Adjustment" is a capture without changing the levels. On the "Levels Adjusted" I raised the brightness until the VDub histogram did not show any red on the left side. I used crop so the the black edges did not affect the histogram. I also slightly raised the contrast. Then I captured.

To me, "Levels Adjusted" looks a little too bright. Is it actually correct or am I doing it wrong? I know there are other problems, but I'd like to focus on levels right now if that is a good first step to getting the capture "pretty good."

I'm not going to be as picky as some may be, but I do want it to look better. I have way too many hours of tape to be overly picky.

No Adjustment https://drive.google.com/open?id=16b...PU6jfL45vynV8I
Levels Adjusted https://drive.google.com/open?id=1qb...83WNIKOsCxQGvN
Reply With Quote
  #35  
01-29-2019, 09:59 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,307 Times in 982 Posts
In "No Adjustment" darks are crushed throughout.
The "Adjusted" version has a high gamma that makes the second shot look almost overexposed -- but, my friends, is so common with VHS that it should be standard procedure to have to adjust levels differently for different scenes. Unlike digital video, analog levels vary with waveforms, and they're rarely consistent from moment to moment. The idea behind adjusting levels during capture is to avoid crushed darks and clipped brights that can't be recovered later. Post-processing is the refinement and repair of the many faults of VHS, of which murky shadow rendition is an eternal fault.

There are two shots in the the "Adjusted' video. Both need some tweaking. The first shot of the audience is the one that's too bright. It's an almost-available-light audience shot that could stand to have its gamma and bright contrast lowered a bit. We don'tn really care about seeing that much bright detail in a shot of this type, and it probably looked even darker when broadcast on tv. The second shot needs slightly lower gamma (midtones) and brighter brights (the contrast setting in Tweak() should give the right effect for the bright end).

Does this mean that many scenes in typical VHS projects need different processing for some (but not all) maverick levels and/or color changes? Yes. And the audience shot has a lot of low-exposure camera noise. The second, brighter shot has much less noise. If you used a denoiser that targets the darker shot and used the same denoiser for both shots, the brighter shot will look over-filtered (and it probably will be).
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: lordsmurf (01-30-2019)
  #36  
01-29-2019, 10:05 PM
Micheal81 Micheal81 is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 24
Thanked 3 Times in 1 Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
In "No Adjustment" darks are crushed throughout.
The "Adjusted" version has a high gamma that makes the second shot look almost overexposed -- but, my friends, is so common with VHS that it should be standard procedure to have to adjust levels differently for different scenes. Unlike digital video, analog levels vary with waveforms, and they're rarely consistent from moment to moment. The idea behind adjusting levels during capture is to avoid crushed darks and clipped brights that can't be recovered later. Post-processing is the refinement and repair of the many faults of VHS, of which murky shadow rendition is an eternal fault.

There are two shots in the the "Adjusted' video. Both need some tweaking. The first shot of the audience is the one that's too bright. It's an almost-available-light audience shot that could stand to have its gamma and bright contrast lowered a bit. We don'tn really care about seeing that much bright detail in a shot of this type, and it probably looked even darker when broadcast on tv. The second shot needs slightly lower gamma (midtones) and brighter brights (the contrast setting in Tweak() should give the right effect for the bright end).

Does this mean that many scenes in typical VHS projects need different processing for some (but not all) maverick levels and/or color changes? Yes. And the audience shot has a lot of low-exposure camera noise. The second, brighter shot has much less noise. If you used a denoiser that targets the darker shot and used the same denoiser for both shots, the brighter shot will look over-filtered (and it probably will be).
Thanks for the response.

I understand it can change scene to scene, but if I can at least get it so that no scene clips or is too terrible, can I later use something like AutoAdjust or something similar to "automatically" get each scene closer? There is just no way I can spend time adjusting scene by scene for 100's of hours of video. I get that it won't be "as good as possible", but I'm ok with good enough, better than it is, or as close as possible without manually doing scene by scene.

Also, how do I determine if gamma needs adjusting and how much to adjust it?
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Avisynth deinterlace, improve some quality, VHS captures? mlesic Restore, Filter, Improve Quality 22 10-20-2018 03:30 PM
Suggestions for improving my home videos? (Avisynth, VirtualDub) enphenate Restore, Filter, Improve Quality 19 12-13-2017 10:32 AM
Improving Q. of old VHS capture (animation video) Avisynth! TheCage Restore, Filter, Improve Quality 3 06-23-2016 02:43 PM
Some guidance for improving VHS captures? Micheal81 Restore, Filter, Improve Quality 3 01-04-2016 07:37 AM
Avisynth for improving resolution? merchantord Restore, Filter, Improve Quality 8 11-28-2013 06:24 AM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:14 AM