Quantcast Panasonic ES10 passthrough creates MPEGs? - digitalFAQ Forum
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11-02-2018, 08:35 AM
OBNOXIUs OBNOXIUs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf
can also create what I call a "TBC lite" setup, using the ES10/15 in conjunction with a DVK100. It gets you about as close to a TBC as is possible, without actually using one. It can be 90%+ as effective, unlike either unit alone.
I don't understand the advantage of a chroma key yet, I will need to check it on the forum. The things that keeps me from using the ES10 in my normal set-up, is that it encodes to MPEG2 (right?). It seems like a good way to correct really bad tapes, but then to forget about the lossless capturing but just burn it directly to DVD, since the quality is the same in a much smaller file size.

I have found a DataVideo TBC-1000 for €500, that's probably a better option to buy?
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  #2  
11-02-2018, 08:45 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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I moved this part of the conversation from PM to thread because it's not the first time I've seen this misunderstanding...

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Originally Posted by OBNOXIUs View Post
I don't understand the advantage of a chroma key yet, I will need to check it on the forum.
The chroma key aspect of the DVK-100 is completely useless, and not at all used. It is ignored. What matters is that the DVK-100 contains a weak DataVideo TBC based on the TBC-5000. The 5000 is not a TBC that was designed for consumer analog signals, unlike the units from the late 90s and early 00s (100, 1000, 3000, 4000, 7000).

Used alone, both ES10/15 and DVK-100 fail to do what is considered a "proper TBC job" for the consumer analog formats like VHS. Without adequate/proper TBC, a signal will usually drop frames on capture (and/or lose audio sync), visual oddities will appear, weird motion/jitter will happen, and you'll run into AGC/brightness/contrast issues.

The ES10/15 units have weak frame sync with holes punched in it for anti-copy to pass, while the TBC-5000 expects clean professional analog sources. Only when combined do they create a decent stand-in for a TBC, though with drawbacks over using a recommended TBC. Those drawbacks are specifically (1) posterization for the ES10, and (2) some seconds-long initial AGC/luma/contrast/brightness issues as the ES10/15+DVK start to communicate, sometimes also initial jitter and weirdness.

On the other hand, if tapes have a high likelihood of serious TBC issues, that combo can be more effective than a recommended TBC. However, it will be worse than having an ES10/15 combined with a recommended TBC, and not the DVK. And then you can only use the ES10/15 as needed.

The main advantage of the ES10/15+DVK combo is for price and availability. There have been times where a true TBC is not available, just the DVK and an ES10/15. And while the combo will not be cheap, it can often come in at $100-200 less. And for those on a tight budget, it's better than no TBC at all. Or the wrong TBC.

Quote:
The things that keeps me from using the ES10 in my normal set-up, is that it encodes to MPEG2 (right?).
Wrong. The DVD recorder is ignored. Therefore no MPEG-2 is ever created. The ES10/15 units are unusual and special because they function on passthrough. By that I mean the signal goes in, gets corrected, and pass back out. So you can then capture the output signal with the desired method. That can be anything from uncompressed/lossless, to MPEG capturing with a card (ie ATI AIW as 15-20mbps), or even a better DVD recorder (ie JVC with LSI Logic chipsets).

The ES10/15 has terrible recording quality, even though it also uses LSI. The Panasonic firmware settings are terrible, and it is a shame.

Trivia: It could have actually been as good as a JVC or LiteOn. Without the posterization, even better. Those all 3 brands, all recorders in general, have varying luma/IRE issues, the Panasonic was probably better than the JVC/LiteOn. more like Samsung (but without ther VTS issues).

Quote:
It seems like a good way to correct really bad tapes, but then to forget about the lossless capturing but just burn it directly to DVD, since the quality is the same in a much smaller file size.
You can, but the above reasons, it's not suggested. That's not why the ES10/15 is suggested.

Quote:
I have found a DataVideo TBC-1000 for €500, that's probably a better option to buy?
That's what I do. And I do do.

In fact, TBC-1000 + ES10 (or ES15) would be the best option. And I do that as well. The ES10 is a wee bit stronger, but larger. And PAL ES10 may have some IRE/AGC issues that do not exist on the ES15; something I've read about from our member Bogelein, but I've not yet had time to investigate/confirm it, new info to me.

Right now €500 is about $600 USD (plus overseas shipping). Decent price, as current valuation is $700+ on those. Just make sure it's been tested. You don't want a "working" TBC that is noisy, and isn't actually working. That happens far too often, especially when sourced from eBay.

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11-02-2018, 09:18 AM
JPMedia JPMedia is offline
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I think you might be mixing up a few different concepts. The ES-10/ES-15 aren't great DVD recorders, but when used as a pass-through, these recorders can correct line level timing of errors that occur in analog tapes. lordsmurf recently mentioned that the ES-10/ES-15 have limited frame level corrective abilities, but the frame level correction isn't aggressive enough to circumvent copy protection.

In this case, you're running video cable out from your playback device (usually a VCR or Camcorder) into the input on the back of the ES-10/ES-15, then another video cable out of the ES-10/ES-15 into your capture device.

VCR/Camcorder ==> ES-10/ES-15 ==> Capture Device

If you want to bypass lossless capture, look into purchasing a DVD Recorder using the LSI chipset. A list of such units can be found in this thread:
LSI chipset (DVD recorders) gallery

If you're certain the seller is trustworthy, buy the DataVideo TBC-1000.
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11-02-2018, 11:02 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The ES10/15 has terrible recording quality, even though it also uses LSI. The Panasonic firmware settings are terrible, and it is a shame.
One could debate which is worse at recording, the ES10/ES15 or the detail smearing and color wreckage from JVC recorders, but there is no debate on one point: The ES10/ES15's never used LSI chips. The only Panasonic product to ever use an LSI chip was the DMR-ES20. Unfortunately the ES20's tbc is so weak that it's useless for pass-thru.
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  #5  
11-02-2018, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
One could debate which is worse at recording, the ES10/ES15 or the detail smearing and color wreckage from JVC recorders, but there is no debate on one point: The ES10/ES15's never used LSI chips. The only Panasonic product to ever use an LSI chip was the DMR-ES20. Unfortunately the ES20's tbc is so weak that it's useless for pass-thru.
To be honest, I've entirely forgotten which chipset the ES10 has, the ES15, etc. I know some ES series used LSI, but it was really lousy. All Panasonic recorders are. Their own chipsets were terrible, mucking with luma and IRE quite badly. You'd get everything from blown-out image to green casts.

The JVC doesn't smear details whatsoever, but does have about a 2-5 IRE. Remember, 0 is PAL/NTSC-J, 7.5 is NTSC. All recorders tend to screw around with IRE, luma, and gamma. The JVC (or rather LSI Logic chip) didn't mess with luma, cleaned chroma (and the reason it's so highly regarded), and gamma is debatable. Some LiteOns had green tint because of fubar firmware, several models of which were fixed, but not all. Samsung LSI is nice, no major IRE issues, but the authoring is screwy. There are other LSIs.

JVC LSI-based DVD recorder do not at all wreck colors. At most, colors can be slightly desaturated from the IRE, but not necessarily. It's mostly just black black is charcoal gray. And, of course, correctable on most players and TVs, since similar issues exist with PAL source content (wrong IRE for NTSC), or even NTSC-J. Everything has black level filters now for that reason.

Proc amp can correct some of this, if really needed.

And you must remember that VHS source tapes, or the broadcast or camera work it's sourced from, is not necessarily correct either. It's not uncommon to have the slightly-wrong JVC actually fix it more accurate in the long run. I have quite a few B&W shows recorded from TCM, some from VHS, some direct to the JVC, which look much better after recording.

In the past decade or so, I think too many people are making video too dark, all in the name of making it have "more color". Shiny computer monitors are an extension of that horrible practice.

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