Quantcast Restoring 8mm/Hi8/VHS VirtualDub captures? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
02-11-2019, 01:43 PM
willow5 willow5 is offline
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Hi all,

Well it has been quite a few years since I posted in this forum but in all this time, I have made some excellent progress and transferred lots of tapes onto my hard drive but, given that Vdub captures 30Gb an hour on average, I am now running out of space and need to do something with the files to make space for more captures.

I have so far captured in this configuration:

1) 8mm/Hi8 Sony EV-C400E (no line TBC) -> TBC1000 -> AIW 9600
2) VHS Panasonic NV-FS200 (with TBC on) -> TBC1000 -> AIW9600

I must stress that even with this setup, there were many inserted frames but rarely any dropped frames. How do I find where these inserted frames are given that most tapes are between 90 minutes - 120 minutes and what were the reasons for the inserted frames, was I doing something wrong ?

Also, in terms of VDub settings, I used the very handy guide on this forum to make adjustments and only really changed the contrast to 112 (from 128) whilst leaving all other levels at 128 to make the histogram ok at the top end. After that it was very much a case of batch capture and checking the histogram levels. Does this sound about right of should I have done anything differently before capturing en-masse?

So, now I need to make some restorations / filterations / general improving quality. I must stress that as we moved between 8mm and hi8 home cameras, the quality varies. Please can someone (Sanlyn / Lordsmurf ?) advise on the first steps I need to take before I can enter this stage ?

I can post a few clips if it helps to understand the quality....

Thanks

Last edited by willow5; 02-11-2019 at 01:57 PM. Reason: added more information
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  #2  
02-11-2019, 05:13 PM
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Post some clips.

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  #3  
02-11-2019, 06:47 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
So, now I need to make some restorations / filterations / general improving quality. I must stress that as we moved between 8mm and hi8 home cameras, the quality varies. Please can someone (Sanlyn / Lordsmurf ?) advise on the first steps I need to take before I can enter this stage ?

I can post a few clips if it helps to understand the quality....
Yes, one can evaluate only from sample clips that are unfiltered. Samples of 8 to 10 seconds should suffice, and they should include motion or a segment showing a particular problem you want addressed. To prevent altering colorspace or other factors in your sample, open an avi in Virtualdub and edit down to a short segment. Then click "Video..." -> "direct stream copy" before saving the file.
How to Properly Upload Images and Attach Files to This Site

There is only one way to find dropped/inserted frames: by looking for them. Avisynth does have a filter or two that could help.
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  #4  
02-12-2019, 03:53 PM
willow5 willow5 is offline
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Thanks all - good to be back...my last thread generated a lot of Q&A entitled "Please Review My Capture Setup" so hoping that this one will too....

Anyways back to this query - I have 6 different scenarios that I need to address initially focussing only on 8mm tape transfers (VHS restoration will be addressed later). The scenarios are as follows:

1) 8mm camera recording onto 8mm tape in good lighting conditions (i.e. daylight) with movement
2) 8mm camera recording onto 8mm tape in poor lighting conditions (i.e. night time) with movement
3) Hi8 camera recording onto 8mm tape in good lighting conditions (i.e. daylight) with movement
4) Hi8 camera recording onto 8mm tape in poor lighting conditions (i.e. night time) with movement
5) Hi8 camera recording onto Hi8 tape in good lighting conditions (i.e. daylight) with movement
6) Hi8 camera recording onto Hi8 tape in poor lighting conditions (i.e. night time) with movement

In this post I will address scenario 1 and in future posts I will address scenarios 2-6. Hoping you can help with this scenario initially. Is this clip adequate or should I post another in a different setting ? Could someone kindly clean this video up for me and show me what the possibilities are ?

@Sanlyn and @Lordsmurf good to be back, how do I search for inserted frames ? What am I looking for over say a 90 to 120 minute period ?

Also is there any concept of upscaling a poor 8mm or VHS tape to 720p or 1080i or is this beyond the realms of possibility ? Finally, should I be using a Hi8 player with a line TBC function to dub my tapes ?


Attached Files
File Type: avi test clip.avi (84.21 MB, 6 downloads)
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  #5  
02-16-2019, 01:36 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Thanks for the sample.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
how do I search for inserted frames ? What am I looking for over say a 90 to 120 minute period ?
How many inserted frames? With interlaced video often works out to inserted fields rather than frames. In any case, an inserted image is a duplicate. How many? In my own experience over the years, I've had zero inserted frames in the main body of my captures. Rarely I've had one or two dupes in leader framers as the capture first started, but I don't start captures on important frames. You get an idea of where to look for dupes by observing the statistics update in the right-hand column of the VirtualDub capture screen. Unless you have some serious problems, you will likely seldom if ever see a duplicate during play. If you do spot them, it's during post-processing.

[EDIT] If you're feeling adventurous you can try an Avisynth plugin solution, which was just updated today. The filter itself can be found in the Mediafire links discussed in this thread: .https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=176111

Quote:
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
Also is there any concept of upscaling a poor 8mm or VHS tape to 720p or 1080i or is this beyond the realms of possibility ?
Throughout the video processing world, once you remove all of the clueless newbies from the discussion, the overwhelming concensus about upscaling low-resolution standard definition sources is that it is an utter, complete, and absolute waste of time. Leave upscaling to your players, which can do it a lot better than you ever could with software. High definition is based on high resolution sources, not on low-rez fuzzies blown up into big blurry frame sizes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
Finally, should I be using a Hi8 player with a line TBC function to dub my tapes ?
Only with Hi8 tapes.

The first sample script is a standard way of taking an initial look at a scene. Original borders are cropped away to avoid affecting the histogram.
Code:
Crop(16,2,0,-10)
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
Histogram("Levels")
The YUV histogram in the image below shows good control of YUV input levels. It also shows that overall brightness is changed by the camera's AGC -- brightness dims as the shot begins and is reduced to final levels with a quick "snap" into final level at frame 129. The color bands show a slight deficit in the U channel and a slight bias toward the V channel (the result is a yellow color cast).



I would forget about the left-border cyan damage. It will never repair satisfactorily. This and other discolorations result from tape aging and improper storage. Best to discard some of the bad pixels and re-center the image with a clean border. There are also about 4 pixels of yellow noise on the right border. Other scenes without the same damage won't have borders that exactly match those in this segment. Most scenes in other segments will have dirty borders of one kind or other and SMPTE 4:3 frames usually have most image content in only 704 of 720 pixels. The changeover of almost-similar borders during playback will be so fast and subtle that no one will notice. This sort of compromise is done all the time, especially with archival newsfilm.

Another variation: In the beginning of the shot, the large central octagonal hub has fairly bright shadow detail. As the camera zooms back, by the end of the shot the hub is darkened, with far less visible detail, and the color balance of the sky area changes several times. These are reminders of the way consumer auto "features" act less like conveniences and more like defects. Because the lens zooms back and includes more of the dark interior than in the beginning, AGC causes the brightness of the sky and its details to change several times. There is no such thing as an "anti-AGC" filter to correct this, so you simply have to live with the results.

Consumers appear to be unaware of how jittery camera motion impairs and limits the action of denoisers and other filters. Frantic motion creates interlace and motion artifacts, as well as showing how much extra bitrate is required (and wasted) by such motion in final encodes.

The script below uses an optional left-border cleanup routine with the chubbyrain2.avs and smoothUV.dll anti-rainbow filters. It's optional because another shot with different background colors under the cyan stain might be adversely affected. The GradFun2DBmod gradient smoother prevents hard edges and block noise in smooth areas in the final encode, necessary because of the fairly strong denoising required.

Color, saturation and levels tweaking were applied in VirtualDub using ColorCamcorderDenoise, ColorMill, gradation curves, and VDub's graphical Levels filter. In particular, the sliding Levels control was used to restore some brilliance to the overhead sky, while the curves filter was used as to limit super-brights to luminance-safe specular highlights in that area. Filter settings used were saved in a VirtualDub .vcf file as TestClip1_settings.vcf (attached).

Aliasing and line twitter along diagonals during motion are common problems with shutter operation in consumer cameras. This can be calmed to some extent with QTGMC and the vInverse filter. If it continues to be annoying, QTGMC can be modified to discard the alternate frame that is interpolated during deinterlace; effectively this removes 50% of the noise, as well as cutting temporal resolution in half. The result is 25fps progressive video. However, such segments can be encoded as interlaced (the encoder will imbed interlace flags), so those progressive segments can then be merged with interlaced sections in the same final video.

Using QTGMC to produce progressive video can be done using the FPSDivisor parameter. In the script posted later below, the "normal" QTGMC statement is:

[code]
QTGMC(preset="medium",EZDenoise=6,denoiser="dfttes t",ChromaMotion=true,\
ChromaNoise=true,DenoiseMC=true,GrainRestore=0.3,b order=true)[/quote]

The same statement can be modified with the FPSDivisor parameter to make 25fps progressive video:

Code:
QTGMC(preset="medium",EZDenoise=6,denoiser="dfttest",ChromaMotion=true,\
   ChromaNoise=true,DenoiseMC=true,GrainRestore=0.3,border=true,/
   FPSDivisor=2)
Below is the script I used to get the filtered 25fps interlaced result (attached as encoded "TestClip1_25i.mp4") Please note: jittery motion is seen by many temporal filters as seriously noisy. More noise = stronger settings = more cleanup work = slower filtering. Therefore this is a very slow running script, processing at about 3 fps.
Code:
Import("D:\Avisynth 2.5\plugins\chubbyrain2.avs")
Import("D:\Avisynth 2.5\plugins\RemoveDirtMC.avs")

AviSource("D:\forum\faq\willow5\D\test clip1.avi")
ColorYUV(off_u=8,off_v=-3)
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
AssumeTFF()

### --- optional cubbyrain2 left-border routine --- ###
separatefields
a=last
 
a
chubbyrain2()
smoothuv(radius=7)
crop(0,0,-688,0,true)
ColorYuv(off_v=4)  #<- add some red to the new patch
b=last
 
overlay(a,b)
weave()
### --- end of optional cubbyrain2 left-border roytine --- ###

QTGMC(preset="medium",EZDenoise=6,denoiser="dfttest",ChromaMotion=true,\
   ChromaNoise=true,DenoiseMC=true,GrainRestore=0.3,border=true)
vinverse2()
BiFrost(interlaced=false)
DeHalo_Alpha(rx=2.5)
RemoveDirtMC(40,false)
GradFun2DBmod(thr=1.8)
LSFmod()
AddGrainC(1.5,1.5)
Crop(16,2,-4,-12).AddBorders(10,6,10,8)
SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,0,3).Weave()
### --- To RGB32 for VirtualDub filters --- ###
ConvertToRGB32(interlaced=true,matrix="Rec601")
return last
Other than the chubbyrain2 routine and VirtualDub filters mentioned below, other denoisers snd chroma cleaners used were dfttest, RemoveDirtMC, and Bifrost. GradFDun2DBmod is a gradient smoother, DeHalo_Alpha cleans edge halos. LSFmod is a sharpener.

The progressive version is attached as "TestClip1_25p.mp4". Although it is physically progressive, it's encoded with interlace flags. Some external players would play it as interlaced anyway. It doesn't have as much diagonal line twitter as the 25i version, but motion isn't as smooth.

I don't know where the loud hiss and noise are coming from in your sample, but it's badly over modulated. The audio was captured at 96KHz, which is a very low sampling rate. Usually it would be 48KHz for capture.

-- merged --

Sorry, let me correct myself:

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
I don't know where the loud hiss and noise are coming from in your sample, but it's badly over modulated. The audio was captured at 96KHz, which is a very low sampling rate. Usually it would be 48KHz for capture.
I should have posted:

I don't know where the loud hiss and noise are coming from in your sample, but it's badly over modulated. The audio was captured at 96KHz. Usually it would be 48KHz for capture.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg frame 129 initial lookover cropped.jpg (77.5 KB, 34 downloads)
Attached Files
File Type: vcf TestClip1_settings.vcf (3.8 KB, 1 downloads)
File Type: mp4 testclip1_25i.mp4 (6.18 MB, 4 downloads)
File Type: mp4 testclip1_25p.mp4 (6.09 MB, 6 downloads)
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  #6  
02-16-2019, 08:15 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Quote:
...
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
Finally, should I be using a Hi8 player with a line TBC function to dub my tapes ?...

Response Posted by sanlyn
Only with Hi8 tapes.

Read more: Restoring 8mm/Hi8/VHS VirtualDub captures?
Would standard 8mm players have s-video output like the Hi8 players have? The Sony EV-A50 for example only has composite output.
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  #7  
02-16-2019, 02:27 PM
willow5 willow5 is offline
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@Sanlyn,

Wow thank you so much for the comprehensive answer. I don't know where to start replying to this so excuse my reply if it seems rambled as I have so many follow up questions.

Quote:
How many inserted frames? With interlaced video often works out to inserted fields rather than frames. In any case, an inserted image is a duplicate. How many? In my own experience over the years, I've had zero inserted frames in the main body of my captures. Rarely I've had one or two dupes in leader framers as the capture first started, but I don't start captures on important frames. You get an idea of where to look for dupes by observing the statistics update in the right-hand column of the VirtualDub capture screen. Unless you have some serious problems, you will likely seldom if ever see a duplicate during play. If you do spot them, it's during post-processing.
I am not sure, I think around 30 frames over a 90 minute period which seems a lot to me. Question I have is how can duplicated frames be inserted without dropping any frames ? Presumably something needs to drop to make space for a duplicated frame otherwise you end up with more frames than you started with ?

Quote:
Throughout the video processing world, once you remove all of the clueless newbies from the discussion, the overwhelming concensus about upscaling low-resolution standard definition sources is that it is an utter, complete, and absolute waste of time. Leave upscaling to your players, which can do it a lot better than you ever could with software. High definition is based on high resolution sources, not on low-rez fuzzies blown up into big blurry frame sizes.
thanks for the answer on this, I suspected as much but wanted to get it confirmed by an expert

Quote:
Finally, should I be using a Hi8 player with a line TBC function to dub my tapes ?
Only with Hi8 tapes.
Can I ask why you say only with Hi8 tapes ? What happens if you use a Hi8 player with in built TBC with a non Hi8 tape ?

Now we come onto the actual edit and your marvelous work on my clip....I have so many questions here that I honestly do not know where to start. Please assume that I am a total novice when it comes to scripts and so on so I do not really know what to do with the scripts you have provided. Is there a comprehensive list of all available scripts and uses/outputs so I can determine which ones to use in future or is it a case of asking on a case by case basis ?

Looking at this still from frame 129, what are you looking for in these colour histograms ? Also how do you produce such colour histograms ? Is it on a frame by frame basis or could you have this constantly running while the video is playing ? What does "Good" look like ?

Quote:
I would forget about the left-border cyan damage. It will never repair satisfactorily. This and other discolorations result from tape aging and improper storage. Best to discard some of the bad pixels and re-center the image with a clean border.
When you say left-border cyan damage, do you mean the "green" line that runs from the top to bottom ? If so, this line appears on all recordings from this particular (non-Hi8) camera. I believe it was a budget camera so assumed it was a camera specific artefact. Is this not the case ?

Quote:
There are also about 4 pixels of yellow noise on the right border. Other scenes without the same damage won't have borders that exactly match those in this segment. Most scenes in other segments will have dirty borders of one kind or other and SMPTE 4:3 frames usually have most image content in only 704 of 720 pixels. The changeover of almost-similar borders during playback will be so fast and subtle that no one will notice. This sort of compromise is done all the time, especially with archival newsfilm.
To the untrained eye, I am not sure what you are referring to here. Is there a still you can post to show these 4 pixels ? What is meant by "Other scenes without the same damage won't have borders that exactly match those in this segment" ? Does it mean that the tape is damaged or that the border varies according to scene/frame ? Is this a variable parameter ? What is the optimum setting therefore from a cropping point of view ? Presumably the crop cannot change on a frame by frame basis, I guess you need to choose a setting and stick with it throughout the capture ? In my case, is this the optimum crop setting that you posted earlier:

Quote:
Crop(16,2,0,-10)
Quote:
Another variation: In the beginning of the shot, the large central octagonal hub has fairly bright shadow detail. As the camera zooms back, by the end of the shot the hub is darkened, with far less visible detail, and the color balance of the sky area changes several times. These are reminders of the way consumer auto "features" act less like conveniences and more like defects. Because the lens zooms back and includes more of the dark interior than in the beginning, AGC causes the brightness of the sky and its details to change several times. There is no such thing as an "anti-AGC" filter to correct this, so you simply have to live with the results.

Consumers appear to be unaware of how jittery camera motion impairs and limits the action of denoisers and other filters. Frantic motion creates interlace and motion artifacts, as well as showing how much extra bitrate is required (and wasted) by such motion in final encodes.
Thanks for pointing this out, I noticed this too but assumed it was a camera specific feature which you have now confirmed. What can one do about the interlacing and motion artifacts you mention ? Can they be smoothed over ?

Now this is where I start getting a bit lost.....

Quote:
The script below uses an optional left-border cleanup routine with the chubbyrain2.avs and smoothUV.dll anti-rainbow filters. It's optional because another shot with different background colors under the cyan stain might be adversely affected. The GradFun2DBmod gradient smoother prevents hard edges and block noise in smooth areas in the final encode, necessary because of the fairly strong denoising required.

Color, saturation and levels tweaking were applied in VirtualDub using ColorCamcorderDenoise, ColorMill, gradation curves, and VDub's graphical Levels filter. In particular, the sliding Levels control was used to restore some brilliance to the overhead sky, while the curves filter was used as to limit super-brights to luminance-safe specular highlights in that area. Filter settings used were saved in a VirtualDub .vcf file as TestClip1_settings.vcf (attached).

Aliasing and line twitter along diagonals during motion are common problems with shutter operation in consumer cameras. This can be calmed to some extent with QTGMC and the vInverse filter. If it continues to be annoying, QTGMC can be modified to discard the alternate frame that is interpolated during deinterlace; effectively this removes 50% of the noise, as well as cutting temporal resolution in half. The result is 25fps progressive video. However, such segments can be encoded as interlaced (the encoder will imbed interlace flags), so those progressive segments can then be merged with interlaced sections in the same final video.

Using QTGMC to produce progressive video can be done using the FPSDivisor parameter. In the script posted later below, the "normal" QTGMC statement is:

[code]
QTGMC(preset="medium",EZDenoise=6,denoiser="dfttes t",ChromaMotion=true,\
ChromaNoise=true,DenoiseMC=true,GrainRestore=0.3,b order=true)

The same statement can be modified with the FPSDivisor parameter to make 25fps progressive video:

Code:

QTGMC(preset="medium",EZDenoise=6,denoiser="dfttes t",ChromaMotion=true,\
ChromaNoise=true,DenoiseMC=true,GrainRestore=0.3,b order=true,/
FPSDivisor=2)

Below is the script I used to get the filtered 25fps interlaced result (attached as encoded "TestClip1_25i.mp4") Please note: jittery motion is seen by many temporal filters as seriously noisy. More noise = stronger settings = more cleanup work = slower filtering. Therefore this is a very slow running script, processing at about 3 fps.
Code:

Import("D:\Avisynth 2.5\plugins\chubbyrain2.avs")
Import("D:\Avisynth 2.5\plugins\RemoveDirtMC.avs")

AviSource("D:\forum\faq\willow5\D\test clip1.avi")
ColorYUV(off_u=8,off_v=-3)
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
AssumeTFF()

### --- optional cubbyrain2 left-border routine --- ###
separatefields
a=last

a
chubbyrain2()
smoothuv(radius=7)
crop(0,0,-688,0,true)
ColorYuv(off_v=4) #<- add some red to the new patch
b=last

overlay(a,b)
weave()
### --- end of optional cubbyrain2 left-border roytine --- ###

QTGMC(preset="medium",EZDenoise=6,denoiser="dfttes t",ChromaMotion=true,\
ChromaNoise=true,DenoiseMC=true,GrainRestore=0.3,b order=true)
vinverse2()
BiFrost(interlaced=false)
DeHalo_Alpha(rx=2.5)
RemoveDirtMC(40,false)
GradFun2DBmod(thr=1.8)
LSFmod()
AddGrainC(1.5,1.5)
Crop(16,2,-4,-12).AddBorders(10,6,10,8)
SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,0,3).Weave()
### --- To RGB32 for VirtualDub filters --- ###
ConvertToRGB32(interlaced=true,matrix="Rec601")
return last

Other than the chubbyrain2 routine and VirtualDub filters mentioned below, other denoisers snd chroma cleaners used were dfttest, RemoveDirtMC, and Bifrost. GradFDun2DBmod is a gradient smoother, DeHalo_Alpha cleans edge halos. LSFmod is a sharpener.
There is a lot of good information here but I am at a loss on how to capitalise on it. Where do I start with filters, scripts and so on ? Also, how did you get the file size down from c.90Mb to c.8Mb ? Did running these scripts alone reduce the file size ? Please assume I am a total novice (barely mastered capturing) and need a bit of hand holding through this phase.....

Quote:
The progressive version is attached as "TestClip1_25p.mp4". Although it is physically progressive, it's encoded with interlace flags. Some external players would play it as interlaced anyway. It doesn't have as much diagonal line twitter as the 25i version, but motion isn't as smooth.
Does it mean that progressive is better than interlaced or is this down to user preference ? I assume progressive removes the interlacing artifacts ? Is this a specific filter that can be applied to change between interlacing and progressive ? Which one is more popular with PAL captures ?

Quote:
I don't know where the loud hiss and noise are coming from in your sample, but it's badly over modulated. The audio was captured at 96KHz. Usually it would be 48KHz for capture.
Yes you are right, I did not change the default Vdub settings when capturing...does it mean I need to recapture ?

Now, I have a few additional questions:

1) Should I be using a separate sound card for audio capture ? I read somewhere on this forum that I must not use the in built sound card "line in" which I have been doing so far. My motherboard is Asus P4C-800e so not sure if this has adequate chipsets for audio capture. If the answer is that I need to use a separate sound card then please can you recommend one ?
2) If I wish to splice in other footage from other camera angles to make one edited video, how best could I do this ? Is VDub the best tool or do I need dedicated video editing software ? For example, I wish to retain the audio soundtrack from Camera 1 while using footage from Camera 2 at the same timecode
2a) Following on from 2), what comes first in terms of filtering then splicing in video ? Does one filter all video from camera 1 first then filter all video from camera 2 followed by splicing in the footage together to make 1 continuous video ? The reason I ask is because there are a few wedding tapes that I wish to merge together by taking the best of both cameras and making 1 good video which can be shared with the happy couple. I must point out that 1 is "professional VHS" while my video is at best Hi8
2b) How do I add titles and text to videos both as a black or white background and on top of the video ?
3) When batch capturing, do I need to look over the video to make a note of where the inserted frames are occuring or could I do this retrospectively ? Looking at your reply here, it would appear that I need to narrow down the time window that these inserts happened. The only was I can do this going forwards is to watch over the captures as they are happening which seems time consuming. I can, however, get a list of statistics post capture from Vdub showing the number of dropped / inserted frames if this is helpful ?

That is all I can think of for now, I am sure there will be many, many more questions though - thank you Sir !

-- merged --

Sorry one more question, the 8mm tapes I have were recorded on a mono camera. Is 48KHz suitable for mono audio or both mono and stereo?


Attached Images
File Type: jpg frame 129 initial lookover cropped.jpg (77.5 KB, 2 downloads)
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  #8  
02-16-2019, 02:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dpalomaki View Post
Would standard 8mm players
I often think confusion comes from using the term 8mm whatsoever, in reference to tape formats. It's Video8, Hi8, or Digital8. There actually is no "8mm" analog tape format. 8mm is film.

And yes, I made that mistake many times in past years, and sometimes still do.
But I saw the confusion it was causing.

Much like VHS, S-VHS, W-VHS, and D-VHS, users need to specify the exact format. Each is very different.

(I'm tired of guessing, because I seem to often guess wrong. )

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  #9  
02-18-2019, 03:51 PM
willow5 willow5 is offline
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Hi Sanlyn,

Regarding the over modulation and loud hiss/noise in the clip, this is actually a hotel complex and the hiss you are hearing was actually a background waterfal. I checked another part of the tape and got no background noise at this sample rate so perhaps you can review this clip and let me know if there is an issue with the audio - I am concerned that I might have to re-do all 30+ tapes as they were all set to 96KHz...


Attached Files
File Type: avi test clip 1.avi (93.18 MB, 1 downloads)
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  #10  
02-18-2019, 05:48 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
Can I ask why you say only with Hi8 tapes ? What happens if you use a Hi8 player with in built TBC with a non Hi8 tape ?
Not sure what sanlyn meant there, you would normally use the same gear to capture both, as (almost all) Hi8 devices have S-Video and better quality playback. I prefer the image from the cameras over the VCRs, but there isn't a huge difference, the cameras have a slightly sharper image, though a bit more noisy. The line-TBC in the cameras help against the image "wiggling" left and right. If you notice that on the captures, then a camera would most likely get rid of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
When you say left-border cyan damage, do you mean the "green" line that runs from the top to bottom ? If so, this line appears on all recordings from this particular (non-Hi8) camera. I believe it was a budget camera so assumed it was a camera specific artefact. Is this not the case ?
Some of it is likely from the VCR. We got one of those VCRs here, as well as the higher-end EV-C2000, and both have this thing on playback, and captures I've seen from the top-end TBC equipped decks also has it. This seems to be an issue with PAL Sony Video8/Hi8 gear in general, the newer TBC-equipped cameras do this as well, but on the right side instead. Looking at the last clip it looks like there is some stuff on the left that may be from the original recording camera as well.

Quote:
There is a lot of good information here but I am at a loss on how to capitalise on it. Where do I start with filters, scripts and so on ? Also, how did you get the file size down from c.90Mb to c.8Mb ? Did running these scripts alone reduce the file size ? Please assume I am a total novice (barely mastered capturing) and need a bit of hand holding through this phase.....
After processing the video, one would normally encode it in a more compressed video format (typically mp4 files with the H.264 codec, or mpeg2 for DVD) for viewing. Virtualdub is able to do this.

Quote:
Does it mean that progressive is better than interlaced or is this down to user preference ? I assume progressive removes the interlacing artifacts ? Is this a specific filter that can be applied to change between interlacing and progressive ? Which one is more popular with PAL captures ?
Interlacing was a compromise solution between smoothness and image quality back when analog television was developed. It made sense for analog CRT screens, but a modern LCD panel can't display it natively. QTGMC (an avisynth plugin) is the deinterlacer of choice here. TVs (not computer monitors) often also contain built-in deinterlacing of quite good quality, provided they know what they are playing back is interlaced.

Quote:
Yes you are right, I did not change the default Vdub settings when capturing...does it mean I need to recapture ?
Some of the timing options may help with the inserted frames.

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1) Should I be using a separate sound card for audio capture ? I read somewhere on this forum that I must not use the in built sound card "line in" which I have been doing so far. My motherboard is Asus P4C-800e so not sure if this has adequate chipsets for audio capture. If the answer is that I need to use a separate sound card then please can you recommend one ?
Depends if you find the audio quality acceptable. The older onboard sound cards can some times pick up noise from the electrical components in the computer, like a buzzing hum sound and/or static.

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Sorry one more question, the 8mm tapes I have were recorded on a mono camera. Is 48KHz suitable for mono audio or both mono and stereo?
48KHz 16-bit Stereo is what you generally want to use, as it's the most common audio format on video. You won't gain anything from a higher sampling rate on these sources. 32KHz may be sufficient for what the Video8 audio can represent but it's not really worth the hassle for the small amount of space it would save. (The technical reasoning is that the sampling frequency should be twice that of the highest frequency the digital recording needs to represent + a little bit of headroom.)

Last edited by hodgey; 02-18-2019 at 05:58 PM.
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Worth noting that some Hi8 VCR include TBC. And in general the full fledged VCRs have better (faster) tape handling. But Hi8 VCRs are pricey compared to high end used camcorders.

96 kHz audio has little to no advantage for capture from consumer analog video tape. 48kHz 16-bit is more than adequate for capture of home video and is typical for distribution on DVD media. But there is no reason to recapture, just down-sample when the time comes. As noted, motherboard embedded audio has improved over the years. If you are happy with it, use it. Most handicam audio was pretty bad using poor microphones and having high noise floors. Mono audio is ok if that is how it was shot, converting to stereo just uses more bytes.

DVD is interlaced. Ultimately it will depend on your distribution format (s).
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
Quote:
How many inserted frames? With interlaced video often works out to inserted fields rather than frames.
In any case, an inserted image is a duplicate. How many? In my own experience over the years, I've had
zero inserted frames in the main body of my captures. Rarely I've had one or two dupes in leader
frames as the capture first started, but I don't start captures on important frames. You get an idea
of where to look for dupes by observing the statistics update in the right-hand column of the
VirtualDub capture screen. Unless you have some serious problems, you will likely seldom if ever see a
duplicate during play. If you do spot them, it's during post-processing.
I am not sure, I think around 30 frames over a 90 minute period which seems a lot to me. Question I
have is how can duplicated frames be inserted without dropping any frames ? Presumably something needs
to drop to make space for a duplicated frame otherwise you end up with more frames than you started
with ?
An inserted duplicate field or frame takes the place of a field or frame that never made it into the capture. In other words, an inserted frame replaces one that should have been present but isn't. When frames are simply dropped but not replaced, you have a gap in the video's flow.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
Please assume that I am a total novice when it comes to scripts and so on so I do not really know what
to do with the scripts you have provided. Is there a comprehensive list of all available scripts and
uses/outputs so I can determine which ones to use in future or is it a case of asking on a case by case
basis ?
An Avisynth script is a plain text file typed in Notepad or another text editor and saved with an ".avs" file extension. You can use VirtualDub to run Avisynth scripts. Click "File..." -> "Open video file...", locate the .avs script, and click OK. VirtualDub sees Avisynth output as a video stream, the same way it "sees' an .avi or other compatible video. The output of the script is saved by VirtualDub using the colorspace and codec you specify, the same way it saves any other output file. You can also apply VirtualDub filters to Avisynth's output the same way you apply VDub filters to any other video that you open in VirtuaDub -- although things might run slightly slower because you will be applying two processing steps at once, Avisynth's filters and VirtualDub's. Unless you specify how you want the output formatted and saved, Avisynth's processing is completely un-encoded and uncompressed AVI.

There is no such thing as a comprehensive list of Avisynth scripts. A script is simply a list of instructions that are executed line-by-line in the sequence in which they appear. Certain instructions are common to all scripts -- for instance, you must have an instruction that locates and opens a video file before the script can do anything else. Otherwise every script is a custom job based on the video at hand. Some videos require very little fixup, others require a lot.

You learn about Avisynth by seeing what others have done with it. While filter documentation and discussion groups cover a lot of territory when it comes to Avisynth filters, what they can do, and how they are used, you can't work without sampling how others have used it for video. The same is true of VirtualDub: could you have figured out a cropping operation without the guide you referenced earlier? Would you know what to do with VirtualDub's GUI-based Levels filter? It was used in the thread you're reading right now, and it's been illustrated and discussed in specific detail in previous project threads. Cruising through the restoration forum is one way to find out what's going on, and it's the way most members here learned what they know.
Postprocessing video using AviSynth
Postprocessing video using VirtualDub
Using VDub's CamcorderColorDenoise, GUI Levels, and others: Information Overlaod #3.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
Looking at this still from frame 129, what are you looking for in these colour histograms ? Also how do
you produce such colour histograms ?
The first thing I looked for was to see that luminance levels (in the white bar at the top of the graph) did not exceed y=16-235. The darker shaded borders on each side of the histogram indicate data that is darker than y=16 (the left border) and data that is brighter than y=235 (the right-hand border). The line down the middle of the graph indicates the middle point of the 16-235 spectrum (or about y=128).
How is it produced? I guess I'll have to repeat from the previous post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
The first sample script is a standard way of taking an initial look at a scene. Original borders are cropped away to avoid affecting the histogram.
Code:
Crop(16,2,0,-10)
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
Histogram("Levels")
Quote:
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
Is it on a frame by frame basis or could you have this constantly running while
the video is playing ? What does "Good" look like ?
The short script quoted above will give you a histogram on every frame in your video. if your video has 1 frame, you'll get 1 histogram. if your video has 225,000 frames, you'll get 225,000 histograms, one on each frame.
Yes, it will stay there until you deactivate or erase those lines in the script.

There is no such thing as "good'. Histograms are just information. If your histograms show that you have huge large big high peaky lumps in the blue band and you have a short stubby red band you can bet your life that your video looks mostly blue with very little red -- unless, of course, it's a picture of a small colored ball in a big blue sky, in which case you want a lot of blue and a little bit of the other colors.

The type of histogram shown in this current thread is a "parade" type, or a column of horizontal colored bands that stretch from left to right. There are other forms.
Understanding histograms Part 1 and Part 2, for cameras and video:
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tut...istograms1.htm
http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tut...istograms2.htm
Avisynth Histogram functions: http://avisynth.nl/index.php/Histogram

Quote:
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
Quote:
I would forget about the left-border cyan damage. It will never repair satisfactorily, although the script managed to clean most of the blurred cyan smear. This and other discolorations result from tape aging and improper storage, as well as VCR playback peculiarities. Best to discard some of the bad pixels and re-center the image with a clean border.
When you say left-border cyan damage, do you mean the "green" line that runs from the top to bottom ? If so, this line appears on all recordings from this particular (non-Hi8) camera. I believe it was a budget camera so assumed it was a camera specific artefact. Is this not the case ?
Are you sure it's just a green line? It looks like a cyan line inside a vertical cyan stain about 18 pixels wide. When you get into color correction you have to be more precise. The average RGB values of that area were Green-189 + Blue 174, which is cyan with a slight green bias. Green is a primary color. Cyan is a secondary color made up of green and blue. If you had to correct a color imbalance, the correction for green wouldn't be the same as a correction for cyan.

If this discoloration happens on all tapes, you have a problem to deal with. I've had some border stains now and then, but not all alike, not on all tapes, and not on all players. I've used high-end players from Panasonic and JVC, and strains just seem to show up whenever they feel like it. Often they go away when I switch players.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
Quote:
There are also about 4 pixels of yellow noise on the right border. Other scenes without the same damage won't have borders that exactly match those in this segment. Most scenes in other segments will have dirty borders of one kind or other and SMPTE 4:3 frames usually have most image content in only 704 of 720 pixels. The changeover of almost-similar borders during playback will be so fast and subtle that no one will notice. This sort of compromise is done all the time, especially with archival newsfilm.
To the untrained eye, I am not sure what you are referring to here. Is there a still you can post to show these 4 pixels ?
frame 0 top field lower right corner


Quote:
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
What is meant by "Other scenes without the same damage won't have borders that exactly match those in this segment" ? Does it mean that the tape is damaged or that the border varies according to scene/frame ? Is this a variable parameter ? What is the optimum setting therefore from a cropping point of view ? Presumably the crop cannot change on a frame by frame basis, I guess you need to choose a setting and stick with it throughout the capture ? In my case, is this the optimum crop setting that you posted earlier:
Quote:
Crop(16,2,0,-10)
Video is generally post-processed in segments, with filters and other procedures to suit the particular segment. if you capture 7 tapes and all 7 videos in their entirety have different border thickness, you're welcome to crop a big swatch to suit all of them and throw away some screen real estate on some videos, or you can crop to suit each case and end up with slightly different border thicknesses. They are black borders that will disappear against the display's black background, so no one will notice small differences. It's up to you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
Quote:
Another variation: In the beginning of the shot, the large central octagonal hub has fairly bright shadow detail. As the camera zooms back, by the end of the shot the hub is darkened, with far less visible detail, and the color balance of the sky area changes several times. These are reminders of the way consumer auto "features" act less like conveniences and more like defects. Because the lens zooms back and includes more of the dark interior than in the beginning, AGC causes the brightness of the sky and its details to change several times. There is no such thing as an "anti-AGC" filter to correct this, so you simply have to live with the results.

Consumers appear to be unaware of how jittery camera motion impairs and limits the action of denoisers and other filters. Frantic motion creates interlace and motion artifacts, as well as showing how much extra bitrate is required (and wasted) by such motion in final encodes.
Thanks for pointing this out, I noticed this too but assumed it was a camera specific feature which you have now confirmed. What can one do about the interlacing and motion artifacts you mention ? Can they be smoothed over ?
Smoothing some fuzzy edges and aliasing was demonstrated in the script and in the two videos. For excessive interlace combing the vInverse filter was used in the script. QTGMC itself at certain settings does correct some motion shimmer and various types of grainy noise. The Santiag filter was used to correct some mild but visible aliasing and edge twitter on diagonal forms in the upper right of the video during motion, while the more extreme case was discarding alternate interlaced fields for the progressive version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
Where do I start with filters, scripts and so on ? Also, how did you get the file size down from c.90Mb to c.8Mb ? Did running these scripts alone reduce the file size ? Please assume I am a total novice (barely mastered capturing) and need a bit of hand holding through this phase.....
I don't know which file size you refer to as 90mb. Your sample was unencoded losslessly compressed YUY2 intraframe video at about 87mb with uncompressed PCM audio, which is generally correct for analog source capture. The mp4 samples were lossy encoded Yv12 interframe video with highly compressed ACM audio at about 6.5mb.

In Unencoded or losslessly compressed intra-frame video using lossless codecs such as Huffyuv or Lagarith, each frame is a complete image in itself. Because every frame in an intraframe video is a complete image, intraframe videos are larger than lossy encodes. The lossless working files were saved as Yv12 using the Lagarith lossless codec, ready for final encoding elsewhere (huffyuv cannot be used with YV12).

With lossy interframe encoding such as DVD (MPEG) or h.264, frames are arranged in GOP's (Groups of Pictures). Each GOP consists of one or a few complete images called key frames, while the rest of the frames are incomplete images that contain data only for the changes that occur between key frames and between preceding and following GOP's. Because most frames in an interframe video are incomplete images that contain only the changes between key frames, and because lossy compression also discards some data that the codec considers unimportant, and because MPEG and h.264 use only 50% of the chroma resolution of YUY2 work files and only 25% of the chroma resolution of RGB work files, intra-frame files are much smaller. The differences between lossless and lossy video explains why lossy final delivery formats like MPEG and .h264 are not recommended for capture or for post processing work. They are called "final delivery" because they are not designed for further modification without serious quality loss. The mp4's were encoded using h.264 with TMPGenc Mastering Works.
Intraframe vs. Interframe Compression

Quote:
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
Quote:
The progressive version is attached as "TestClip1_25p.mp4". Although it is physically progressive, it's encoded with interlace flags. Some external players would play it as interlaced anyway. It doesn't have as much diagonal line twitter as the 25i version, but motion isn't as smooth.
Does it mean that progressive is better than interlaced or is this down to user preference ? I assume progressive removes the interlacing artifacts ? Is this a specific filter that can be applied to change between interlacing and progressive ? Which one is more popular with PAL captures ?
Deinterlacing is a destructive process. The quality loss from minimal to visible depends on how it's done. Because of this, interlaced video should remain interlaced. There are various means of filtering interlaced media without deinterlacing, but sometimes deinterlacing is required for various reasons, such as repair requirements (would you rather deinterlace and remove the defects, or keep it interlaced and live with defects such as duplicate or missing frames, or frames with badly corrupt data?), or for web mounting and other special purpose players. Sometimes interlacing is required, as with DVD and certain Bluray formats.

If you have two video sources, one interlaced and one progressive, both at the same frame rate, you cannot mix the two formats in the same video. The fix is to encode the progressive vid with imbedded interlace flags, which instructs the player to consider everything as interlaced. This is also done for purely progressive formats such as animation, silent film, or Hollywood originals which are usually created as 15 or 18 fps, 23.97 or 24 fps, or other progressive frame rates which are doctored in various ways (repeated frames, telecine or pulldown effects, etc.) to make them play at 29.97 fps. Many PAL versions of 23.97 or 24fps fps movies are simply speeded up to 25 fps and encoded as interlaced for DVD (Movie fans really despise this!).

Interlaced video at 29.97 fps plays at 59.94 fields per second. When it's deinterlaced and all fields are retained and interpolated into full-sized frames, it runs at 59.94 full frames per second. The same methods are used for the PAL 25 fps standard. This "normal" deinterlace method doubles the frame rate, doubles the number of frames, and makes a larger file. Some broadcast sources and some players can't handle 59.94 or 50 full frames per second. For some media there are compromises where video is deinterlaced and alternate fields are dropped, keeping the final progressive output at the original frame rate -- but that's a cost of 50% of the original temporal resolution, so in most cases motion will not play as smoothly.

These days, QTGMC is the prime deinterlacer. QTGMC is an Avisynth plugin. Next in quality is your media player or TV. Below that but still usable are various implementations of the yadif algorithm. The lowest quality are simple bob filters available in many editors and are usually used for quick testing. Bigtimne Professional software used by Disney et al uses other methods, but QTGMC is also used inn studios. Note that "big time professional' doesn't incluide anything you can buy online or at Amazon, including Adobe or Vegas. You'll have to spend plenty of money and invest years of training to use what Hollywood uses.

There is no such thing as "best" between interlaced or progressive. All depends on how the media is processed and played.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
2) If I wish to splice in other footage from other camera angles to make one edited video, how best could I do this ? Is VDub the best tool or do I need dedicated video editing software ? For example, I wish to retain the audio soundtrack from Camera 1 while using footage from Camera 2 at the same timecode
2a) Following on from 2), what comes first in terms of filtering then splicing in video ? Does one filter all video from camera 1 first then filter all video from camera 2 followed by splicing in the footage together to make 1 continuous video ? The reason I ask is because there are a few wedding tapes that I wish to merge together by taking the best of both cameras and making 1 good video which can be shared with the happy couple. I must point out that 1 is "professional VHS" while my video is at best Hi8
2b) How do I add titles and text to videos both as a black or white background and on top of the video ?
You apparently have a lot of catching up to do. Some editing and cut-and-join work can be done in Avisynth and VirtualDub, but for timelne, special effects, audio overlay, etc., you need a retail editor. Watch out for totally free editors; they're usually short on features and they assume that you already know what you're doing, which is apparently not the case. Don't invest in high-priced mammoth software packages at this point. We find that Corel's Visual Studio Pro is perfectly suited for what you describe above, including special effects, sound and title overlays, and output for the web. DVD, BluRay, and AVCHD. It's easier to learn and to use than the mammoth software bloat from Adobe.

For post-processing and repair, remember that editors are editors, period. They are not restoration apps. For the kind of cleanup you see here and in other restoration threads, you need Avisynth and VirtualDub. NLE editors have nothing even vaguely approaching the cleanup and repair abilities or precision operations of Avisynth and VirtualDub.

Quote:
Originally Posted by willow5 View Post
3) When batch capturing, do I need to look over the video to make a note of where the inserted frames are occuring or could I do this retrospectively ? Looking at your reply here, it would appear that I need to narrow down the time window that these inserts happened. The only was I can do this going forwards is to watch over the captures as they are happening which seems time consuming. I can, however, get a list of statistics post capture from Vdub showing the number of dropped / inserted frames if this is helpful ?
True, you have to pay attention to captures while you're capturing. You described an inserted frame rate of one every 3 minutes, but dupes generally occur in groups, not in regular cycles. There are Avisynth filters that can be used in various ways, but you're better off finding out why you have inserted frames to begin with. They are usually the result of system bottlenecks (capturing to the same drive or partition that contains the operating system, playing the audio track while capturing, or some other system glitch).

Filters and process functions: Avisynth has over 1000 builtin filters and functions, with several hundred external filters posted on the internet. In no way will you ever need to know about all of them. Virtualdub has dozens of builtin filters, with a couple of hundred available online. Avisynth plugins are kept in its program folder in a plugins subfolder, and VirtualDub also has its own plugin subfolder.

Avisynth internal filters: http://www.avisynth.nl/index.php?tit...nalignedSplice. This list doesn't include several hundred builtin special programming functions.

Avisynth external plugins (one of several sources): http://avisynth.nl/index.php/Externa...s#Introduction.

VirtualDub builtin filters are visible in its filter dialog window.
Popular source of VirtualDub external plugins: http://www.infognition.com/VirtualDubFilters/

Many digitalfaq threads have updated filter posts and special packages for popular plugins. The plugin package most often requested is for QTGMC and is several support files. The .zip package has the plugins, documentations, Windows system support files and VC++ support file links, and complete instructions. The Updated QTGMC filter package 21-21-2018.

Just a few days ago there were forum posts with links to special restoration samples and projects. There were 6 or 7 projects featured, with links in post #10 and post #11 in an earlier thread.

There is a detailed workflow discussion + illustrations + script details and filter links in the thread "Restoring a bunch of VHS workout videos?", post #25 () and post #26.

There are before-after demo images, with workflow, filter, and script details in another thread in post #20.

There are many, many more. All you have to do is what the rest of have done: browse forum posts that tackle problems, illustrating how it's done. Don't neglect to post your own samples and questions. There is no better way to learn video.


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