Quantcast Use DVD recorder for TBC passthrough? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
05-22-2019, 12:49 PM
jg014 jg014 is offline
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Hello, good day.

I'm looking for a PAL/NTSC DVD recorder that can be used as a TBC passthrug. I've read from some of the users here that Panasonic DMR-ES10/ES15, But where I live I did not find any site that sells any of those two models and the international purchase by ebay would mean for me to invest more money than I thought.

In my location I can get a Panasonic Dmr-ex83 (DMR-EX83EG-K), you say it will work? I can also get to get a Sony RDR-GX350. Do you think one of the two can work as tbc?

Pioneer, Philips and LG recorders seems to be the most common brands around here where I live. Can any of them be used as TBC pass-thru. Anyone with any experience?

I have read several publications of the forum, but they have not been able to solve my specific doubt, that is why I make this publication.

Any information provided will be appreciated.

Greetings and thanks.-
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  #2  
05-22-2019, 03:21 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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It depends on what you expect of the device.

I have a Sony RDR-HX750, and The RDR-GX350 looks like it's from the same lineup with similar menus etc, so it's likely it would act similarly. It works on tapes that are not too bad, and can correct a fair bit of horizontal jitter and tearing, but it will struggle on very bad tapes. Significantl improvement over capturing directly from a capture card though. Generally, as far as I know, the Pioneer DVR-_x_ models from the _3_ and onwards (e.g DVR-440) and Sony RDR-HX_5_ and upwards (the x90 may be less capable judging by this thread) have similar correcting capabilities.

The panasonic I don't know personally. I know the "post es10-es15" panasonics have some tbc-like capability, and they seem to be popular over in the german community for doing HDMI capture. (I've found that the same method works on my Sony.) They are are again not as capable as the ES10 for very bad tapes, though I don't know how exactly the compare to the Sony (and pioneer analogues).

I have some examples in another thread here. I kind of forgot about the thread so I haven't gotten around to uploading a comparison with the ES10 yet.

Don't know anything about LG models or philips models, other than the philips model mentioned in the linked thread (which is not recommended).

Note that DVD-recorder will typically output a macrovision signal (unlike the full-on TBCs) if they thing the material on the input side is copy-protected, so if the capture card can't handle this, this method may not work well.

This thread also have comparisons of a few DVD-recorders. As noted there, the PAL Panasonic dvd-recorders are known to clip whites a little.
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  #3  
05-22-2019, 05:00 PM
jg014 jg014 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
It depends on what you expect of the device.

I have a Sony RDR-HX750, and The RDR-GX350 looks like it's from the same lineup with similar menus etc, so it's likely it would act similarly. It works on tapes that are not too bad, and can correct a fair bit of horizontal jitter and tearing, but it will struggle on very bad tapes. Significantl improvement over capturing directly from a capture card though. Generally, as far as I know, the Pioneer DVR-_x_ models from the _3_ and onwards (e.g DVR-440) and Sony RDR-HX_5_ and upwards (the x90 may be less capable judging by this thread) have similar correcting capabilities.

The panasonic I don't know personally. I know the "post es10-es15" panasonics have some tbc-like capability, and they seem to be popular over in the german community for doing HDMI capture. (I've found that the same method works on my Sony.) They are are again not as capable as the ES10 for very bad tapes, though I don't know how exactly the compare to the Sony (and pioneer analogues).

I have some examples in another thread here. I kind of forgot about the thread so I haven't gotten around to uploading a comparison with the ES10 yet.

Don't know anything about LG models or philips models, other than the philips model mentioned in the linked thread (which is not recommended).

Note that DVD-recorder will typically output a macrovision signal (unlike the full-on TBCs) if they thing the material on the input side is copy-protected, so if the capture card can't handle this, this method may not work well.

This thread also have comparisons of a few DVD-recorders. As noted there, the PAL Panasonic dvd-recorders are known to clip whites a little.
Hello @hodgey,

My idea was to try to capture by Hdmi, since I have always captured by analog signal. Of 10 tapes, 4 to give an example, are the ones that I could digitize correctly connecting the vcr directly to the capturing card, the rest had frame losses so I could not do a correct scan.

Converting the vcr signal to digital before capturing, I thought I could make an improvement in the video signal to be able to capture it better later, but I was in doubt if the dvd recorder models I mentioned are compatible, both in addition to Analog output have digital output, something that the ES10 does not have.
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  #4  
05-23-2019, 04:36 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Testing has made only on europe/german dvd recorders with PAL video content. It could be that US models perform different.

The best dvd recorder in passthrough mode against jitter/tearing is the panasonic ES10.
These panasonic models should perform at the same level DMR-HS2, DMR-ES10, DMR-EH52, DMR-EH50, DMR-EH60 from reports from german video forum but this are unconfirmed. It exist no panasonic recorder with HDMI output with the strong jitter correction.

The first Panasonic DMR with HDMI output was the EH-65. Other panasonic's which should be equal to the EH-65 are ES15,DMR-EH495, DMR-EH595 and a few more.

Other recorders I have tested.
Philips 3480 & 5570: no/poor Jitter correction
Hitachi DV-DS 161: bad jitter correction
Sony RDR-680, Sony RDR-870, Pioneer DVR-555, Pioneer DVR-630: satisfying jitter correction (good enough for good tapes)
Toshiba XS-32: weak, no jitter correction
Pioneer DVR-5100: bad jitter correction
JVC DR-M10S: good/satisfying jitter correction but to slow working AGC
Sony GX7: poor/no jitter correction

The Sony GX350 was released 2007. It comes without a harddisk. The current harddisk models at this time has been the RDR870,970,1070.
The Sony & Pioneer DVD Recorders are quiet the same from this time period.

If you want to use the HDMI output remember the output is HDCP protected and you will need something that remove the protection like a HDMI Splitter.
Which capture card you will use?
Which country you came from? Europe?
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  #5  
05-23-2019, 09:36 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jg014 View Post
My idea was to try to capture by Hdmi
I don't know why new people do this. Apparently they get the idea from people who don't know much about analog video properties or Cat6 wire behavior and are always posting crappy results that they think look what they call "great!". They just look like 2nd-rate capture mistakes that need a lot of cleanup.

But they're your videos, so whatever....
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  #6  
05-23-2019, 11:41 AM
jg014 jg014 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
Testing has made only on europe/german dvd recorders with PAL video content. It could be that US models perform different.

The best dvd recorder in passthrough mode against jitter/tearing is the panasonic ES10.
These panasonic models should perform at the same level DMR-HS2, DMR-ES10, DMR-EH52, DMR-EH50, DMR-EH60 from reports from german video forum but this are unconfirmed. It exist no panasonic recorder with HDMI output with the strong jitter correction.

The first Panasonic DMR with HDMI output was the EH-65. Other panasonic's which should be equal to the EH-65 are ES15,DMR-EH495, DMR-EH595 and a few more.

Other recorders I have tested.
Philips 3480 & 5570: no/poor Jitter correction
Hitachi DV-DS 161: bad jitter correction
Sony RDR-680, Sony RDR-870, Pioneer DVR-555, Pioneer DVR-630: satisfying jitter correction (good enough for good tapes)
Toshiba XS-32: weak, no jitter correction
Pioneer DVR-5100: bad jitter correction
JVC DR-M10S: good/satisfying jitter correction but to slow working AGC
Sony GX7: poor/no jitter correction

The Sony GX350 was released 2007. It comes without a harddisk. The current harddisk models at this time has been the RDR870,970,1070.
The Sony & Pioneer DVD Recorders are quiet the same from this time period.

If you want to use the HDMI output remember the output is HDCP protected and you will need something that remove the protection like a HDMI Splitter.
Which capture card you will use?
Which country you came from? Europe?
Thank you @Bogilein , I'm from Argentina, and here the imported DVD recorders are limited, the majority that is commercialized in the country, are locally manufactured DVD recorders that have only basic functions, so they do not serve to correct the signal of video.

Previously, buy a LG RH7000 DVD recorder, European model, has scart and rgb connection. It receives the signal like this regardless of the quality, so the video quality is very bad. The only thing that does not perform any process of image stabilization.

To capture I use an internal pci card, which in addition to analog inputs has HDMI input, because I usually work a lot with full hd video. But I'm willing to listen to recommendations from other capture cards

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
I don't know why new people do this. Apparently they get the idea from people who don't know much about analog video properties or Cat6 wire behavior and are always posting crappy results that they think look what they call "great!". They just look like 2nd-rate capture mistakes that need a lot of cleanup.

But they're your videos, so whatever....
Dear, I have sent samples of vhs capurados with the video signal previously digitized, where the capture was made by hdmi. And in the tests, the quality and sharpness of the image and color came out much more stable and cleaner than being captured in analog form by rca or components. I want to try alternatives to digitize since I have an important quantity of tapes to convert, but no matter how good the tape is, and no matter how good the tbc is used, some pictures are always lost, and only with that result a bad catch.
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  #7  
05-24-2019, 06:18 AM
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Only a few select DVD recorders can be used for passthrough, but no DVD record has a true TBC. "TBC" is a wide term, often abused, and can mean many things.

Th ES10/15 is mostly for anti-tearing, but does have some minimalist line TBC-like functionality. How well it works depends on the tapes. Only homemade, no retail.

Importing certain equipment is unavoidable.

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  #8  
05-24-2019, 10:07 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jg014 View Post
I have sent samples of vhs capurados with the video signal previously digitized, where the capture was made by hdmi. And in the tests, the quality and sharpness of the image and color came out much more stable and cleaner than being captured in analog form by rca or components.
I'm afraid you'll have to prove it by submitting a sample. We've never seen "high quality" HDMI captures from SD analog tape. They're always inferior to proper captures made with devices optimized for analog source.


Analog tape source is never captured to "analog form". It's captured to lossless digital YUY2, usually avi containers. S-video is used, not "rca" and not component.


HDMI fans always say their stuff looks great but they don't post proper examples or they screw up and post to YouTube. I've come to the conclusion that they don't know what they're doing.
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