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-   -   Encoding miniDV tapes - XViD or progressive H264? (https://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-web/6835-encoding-minidv-tapes.html)

ozshots 11-08-2015 01:23 AM

Encoding miniDV tapes - XViD or progressive H264?
 
Hi All,

I have around 40 miniDV tapes with precious home videos, which I want to preseve. I also want them to be easily accessible from my player on wide screen TV.

Which format shall I choose? My first choice was to de-interlace and compress using XViD; I did that before and it works: files are x10 smaller and play nicely on my (5 years old) WD TV.

But all that seems osolete now; I've read re-interlacing causing information loss and instead of deinterlacing I shall:

de-noise
convert to progressive, doubling the frame rate
up-scale the resolution
encode with H264

Some people saying up-scaling is pointless; I also can hardly believe it will improve quality. Do you agree?

I've noticed my old WD TV is not always playing H264 smoothly; time to upgrade?

Goldwingfahrer 11-08-2015 03:54 AM

Xvid = NO is obsolete
The TV or the player on TV automatically and Deinterlaced scaliert the image.
If one must first be filtered and cut, then use a video editing program.

MP4 is just a container.
H.264 = image = AVC / AAC Audio or AC3 =

With a video editing program to spend or MP4 for free with Hybrid.http: //www.selur.de/

Or grab here and upload a snippet of a DV-AVI in WinZip or WinRAR

ozshots 11-09-2015 05:15 AM

Thank you for explanation!
Can’t attach samples to the forum; “please wait” is displayed and nothing happens.
Samples are at http://www.ozshots.com/samples.zip
Daylight is quite OK while indoor has terrible noise and colour issues.

I’m using Sony Vegas for my current HD projects from new camera.
My starting point for old videos is just to make them easily available to watch unedited on TV screen; as there is lots of footage.

I’m thinking of keeping unprocessed files (large) as well as re-encoding them for easy viewing(small). Not sure really what to do.

I’m trying to download x264vfw codec for VirtualDub. Is there a guide with recommended settings?

Goldwingfahrer 11-20-2015 05:47 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

I’m trying to download x264vfw codec for VirtualDub. Is there a guide with recommended settings?
x264vfw I would not take.
"VFW" = Video for Windows ........... is saved in the AVI container.
So as the ancient DivX and XviD.

ITU-T H.263 / MPEG-4 ASP Video: DivX, Xvid, Adobe Flash
"MPEG-4 ASP" is very old and not good quality.

The modern MP4 =
ITU-T H.264 / MPEG-4 AVC Video: x264, hybrid, Apple QuickTime, Nero Digital, MainConcept H.264 / AVC
is for the future ............. up in 2020 then H.265 / X265 is currently, I hope.

MP4 AVC = + audio as AAC or AC3.
----------------------------------

Hallo.Ich have your two DV-AVI to MP4 encoded with Hybrid.
In the example, both in progressive.

Hybrid is free.
http://www.selur.de/
He speaks English and German.

Stream in MP4 Container can also use video editing programs like Edius / Adobe Premiere and Sony Vegas are created per.

sanlyn 11-21-2015 11:13 AM

5 Attachment(s)
The Indoors sample has grain associated with CMOS noise. SOme of the finer grain can be removed, but the basic CMOS noise "pattern" will remain and objects will move around "undr" it becauew the CMOS noise signal is stronger than the video signal. The sample avi is dark and flat.

I deinterlaced "Indoors grain.avi" with QTGMC, removed most of the noise with MDegrain2, and corrected levels. I then made two samples in AVisynth, one at 576p and another at 720p (attached). The 720p is encoded as m2t for BluRay or AVCHD, but since .m2t isn't allowed for upload the 720p video is zip'd.

You may as well double-rate deinterlace these DV AVI's. DV doesn't interlace well and there's really no way to clean its noise without destroying a lot of video or throwing away half the frames. Discarding 50% of a video is not what one could call a suitable archive for family videos regarded as precious. Also, discarding frames from interlaced video results in judder and loss of temporal resolution during motion.

The Daylight video shows visible clipping, low color density, and artificially elevated black levels, resulting in a washed out image that lacks depth or life like qualities. The clipping of specular highlights occurred at some point during processing. All values from about RGB 180 and brighter were clamped to a single RGB value, so that highlight detail is destroyed. The image will lack "snap" or dynamic range at the bright end because of clipping of bright values. The hard clipping and high black levels are seen the in the top white section of the YUV histogram graph below. One can make the image "brighter", but there will be no gain in bright detail or dynamics and the image will simply look washed out. You can see the results of clipping in the bright "hot spot" on the girl's forehead and in the washed-out bright areas of the girl's clothing.
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1448125401

Levels and gamma corrected in Avisynth and VirtualDub:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1448125464

Usually people will raise brightness or use autogain controls to try to compensate for clipped highlights, but this just makes a pale image. Or they do it to make everything look like bright daylight. The scene above was not shot in bright summer sunlight. The lighting is really subdued, hazy, cool-weather light. The effects of autogain are visible in both avi samples.

The avi's were processed with QTGMC, Avisynth's dither plugin pack, and VirtualDub. All encodes used x264 encoding apps.

Goldwingfahrer 11-21-2015 05:38 PM

sanlyn
But the question was x264vfw [MPEG-4 ASP]
or more modern MP4 [MPEG-4 AVC]

of restoration was not the question here.

sanlyn 11-21-2015 05:50 PM

h264. And not mp4. That's for low-bitrate web streaming. Stay with spec BluRay/AVCHD full-bitrate m2t, etc. Mp4 is for kids and games.

And if no cleanup or restoral, why bother with a forum? Anybody can encode ugly video from 1-2-3 steps shown on any website anywhere.

Goldwingfahrer 11-22-2015 03:01 AM

Quote:

h264.
there is not any.
H.264 with point
and as a software called the x264.

MP4 is a Container, there can mpeg2 or x264 [AVC and AAC there be.

I have the statement only in German

But can safely read in English by Doom9 user LigH.

Look nevertheless times purely in the settings of hybrid.

Und noch mal, und noch mal, und immer wieder:

Alle (theoretischen) Standards der ITU-T beginnen mit einem Großbuchstaben und einem Punkt,
gefolgt von drei Ziffern - z.B.: H.261, H.263, H.264,H.265 (Video-Komprimierung), G.723 (Audio-Komprimierung) u.v.m.

Die (praktische) Implementierung als Software z.Bsp.namens x264,x265 dagegen beginnt mit einem Kleinbuchstaben ohne Punkt.

H.264,H.265 ist ein Standard - also Theorie.
x264,x265 ist ein Programm, eine Implementation des Standards - also Praxis.
__

H.264 ist als Kompressionsverfahren ein Teil des umfassenden Standards "MPEG-4 AVC",
das wäre ein Videoformat. MP4 wäre ein Kontainerformat, in dem AVC enthalten sein darf.

MKV wäre auch ein Kontainer. Auch da darf MPEG-4 AVC als Video enthalten sein,
das mit H.264 komprimiert wurde.

Das alles voneinander unterscheiden zu können, dürfte eure erste Aufgabe sein. Hier mal ein paar Beispiele, zu welchem Standard welche Software gehört:
ITU-T H.261 / MPEG-1 Video: TMPGEnc, bbMPEG
ITU-T H.262 / MPEG-2 Video: HCEnc, TMPGEnc, CCE, CPC,Procoder.
ITU-T H.263 / MPEG-4 ASP Video: DivX, Xvid, Adobe Flash
ITU-T H.264 / MPEG-4 AVC Video: x264, Hybrid,Apple QuickTime, Nero Digital, MainConcept H.264/AVC
ITU-T H.265 / MPEG-H HEVC Video: x265, Kvazaar
---------------------------------
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=96059



sanlyn 11-22-2015 07:23 AM

Yes, as you mention, x264 is an h.264 encoding engine. It appears to be favored by those who don't care for the noisy h.264 encoding by scaled-down, inferior copies of MainConcept used in many NLE's. If the O.P. can afford a genuine, unaltered MainConcept professional edition, well and good.

The difference between the containers for DVD/BluRay/AVCHD, and the mp4 container, is that mp4 has no encoding or file structure standards. People throw any piece of garbage into an mp4 container and wonder why it plays like silly jelly on some players, or will not play at all. mp4 is for "low standards" or "no standard", both of which are very popular today and which have always been the typical consumer's quality a/v measurement standard since the earliest days of CRT TV. There are millions of examples of how MP4 can "accept" encoding of such poor quality that the results look worse than VHS.

On the other hand, encoding for DVD or BluRay or AVCHD specs helps to ensure widespread compatibility and at least a nominal gesture in favor of some level of quality that is at least better than VHS. The Three formats are playable anywhere today, where MP4 is not universal. The idea that MP4 is more convenient for PC playback is nonsense, as other formats are just as convenient on a PC.

If the owner wants an encoded format for their iPhone, iPad, or other toy, it would be waste of data bits and encoding time to encode to a single high-bitrate format for those toys, a 23-inch PC monitor, a 60-inch plasma, and archival quality at the same time. MP4 is a good idea for well-filtered, very low bitrate (below 1500 kbps), small frame size, 250-frame GOPs that defy clean edits, and use more destructive deinterlace methods. Then there is the question of audio, in which most encoders force AAC high compression into MP4 encodes. The first thing typical users do is encode at the lowest audio bitrate possible, firmly in the belief that "AAC" automatically means "better" quality at lower bitrates than AC3, DTS, or PCM (further proof that the average user is no audiophile).

Finally there are two myths that are very popular today but have no merit in actual use: the first myth is that h.264 is "better" than MPEG, the second myth being that MP4 is somehow "better" than anything else for no other reason than MP4 is MP4.

In this case I don't think the differences seriously matter to ozshots. Perhaps he just wants something that will play and make sounds. It's previously been alluded that the smallest file size is a main priority, which automatically precludes high quality bitrates and short GOPs to handle jittery home video camera motion (but, then, he also complained that the results were less than wonderful).

On the other hand, ozshots might be interested in something a little better that his previous results, so some suggestions have been offered in that regard. He will have to decide what he wants to aim for. The owner also hinted earlier that MP4 was an additional encoding choice for use on portable devices, which in that case would be a requirement. But encoding for portable gadgets and encoding for archival quality or big-screen viewing are two different requirements.

Goldwingfahrer 11-23-2015 03:09 AM

That you can not use the same AAC in lowest bit rate and highest quality, I can confirm you need there already reasonable conditions.

H.264 is part of MPEG, namely MPEG-4 (ISO / IEC 14496) Part 10 (AVC), and the MP4 container is also part of detailed standards and specifications (MPEG-4 Part 1, ISO base media file format)

I can not imagine that MP4 is less suitable as a container for high-quality content to me. Maybe just not as common in consumer formats.

Hybrid brings with Avisynth, also QTGMC and you can encode in interlaced .Also in large data rates.
x264 is more efficient than the mpeg2

What a pity, I thought I could here what to study.Habe your post times in the German Doom9 forum to translate inserted.
Answer must be read in the article. 2

http://forum.gleitz.info/showthread....brid-empfohlen

ozshots 11-24-2015 11:48 PM

Guys, thank you all so much!
I have _a lot_ to learn in this area. And I don't think I will be an expert like you any time soon.
I'm not a pro; just an average dad with a camera, trying my best in capturing precious moments of family life.
I now have a stack of DV tapes tapes with raw footage which I want to make available for my family to watch in TV screen, and preserve for the future. Of course if even basic restoration can be made, this is awesome. Indoor footage is truly terrible. Restoration from sanlyn makes it look better.
I could not get “any guide on any site” explaining how to install h264 encoder for VirtualDub. A SourceForge link to X264vfw is broken. Out of desperation I’ve turned to Avidemux which seems to have everything pre-installed in one pack. I can’t find any guide on changing interlaced to progressive on Avidemux either. If I do nothing, interlacing artefacts are visible in encoded video.
So if you can help me to configure Avidemux h264 encoder in the right way, it will be great.
Again, thank you everyone for helping me out.

ozshots 11-25-2015 01:22 AM

1 Attachment(s)
See attached example - this is my DV file encoded by Avidemux to MPEG 4 AVC (x264) without deinterlacing... clearly wrong and still at 25 FPS.
I'm also using resize from 720x576 to 1024x576, as my camera shots in widescreen.
So I need to do something to increase framerate to 50 FPS?

PS Oh, silly me! Should I just use Yadiff deinterlacing with "bob, temporal and spacial check"? That's all?

What about audio? lame mp3 is obsolete?

Goldwingfahrer 11-25-2015 01:41 AM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

I can’t find any guide on changing interlaced to progressive on Avidemux either. If I do nothing,
Video-Output---->Filters----Interlacing----Yadif
or to taste


For audio not forget the data rate to increase slightly
Default is at 128 kbps

See illustrations

Goldwingfahrer 11-25-2015 02:04 AM

1 Attachment(s)
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/styl...attach/zip.gif 20060727_2.zip (2.75 MB, 0 downloads)
You have an audio MP3 128 kbps
This is not good....[for my needs ]
AAC or AC3
Data rate from 192 kbps minimum

Here's my test file [Pal not anamorphic] as picture [Media Info]

In much "action" in the film but I would also increase the data rate for the image content yet.

ozshots 11-25-2015 03:24 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Thank you!
Your example is still 25fps and unfortunately it does not looks good on my player.

Please have a look what I've tried - Yadiff with 50FPS and AAC audio on 224 bitrate.
What sould come first: yadiff or resize?

By the way there are few AAC encoders in Avidemux:
AAC (Faac)
AAC (lav)
AC3 (aften)
AC3 (lav)
Which one to choose?

Do you recommend any noise or sharpness filters for my videos?

Goldwingfahrer 11-25-2015 05:48 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Ah-ha ... The Lord wishes DV Avi in 50p;-)

Usually I stay in MP4 in interlaced mode [MBAFF]
Work rarely with AviDemux.

Only if I DV-AVI Scaliere something, for example at 960 x 720 then do ego at 50p

For this I take Avisynth and for encoding to MP4 the free hybrid.
Here's an example, original Canopus DV-AVI ---> Avisynth ---> Hybrid [Demuxed]

[Audio is processed separately in the rule.]
In hybrid I've included the free and good Nero.AAC.Enc.
That's enough for me.
-------------------

Quote:

What sould come first: yadiff or resize?
Yadif course, it's progressive

Quote:

Do you recommend any noise or sharpness filters for my videos?
I work with Avisynth.
Cropping in Edius, preferences, and test pattern output to the Plasma TV or the interlaced control monitor, depending on the source

Goldwingfahrer 11-25-2015 06:28 AM

1 Attachment(s)
ozshots

the film jerky
Image is quite good, maybe a little increase the contrast and sharpness.
Try out.
In the example, [all created in Edius]
Links the original
Right my version

Filters you should always re-encode before

sanlyn 11-25-2015 12:05 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Thank you for your samples and notes. Please forgive any typos you find below. My family in Tennessee is preparing for the Thanksgiving holiday and the place is a madhouse.
:eek:

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozshots (Post 40737)
See attached example - this is my DV file encoded by Avidemux to MPEG 4 AVC (x264) without deinterlacing... clearly wrong and still at 25 FPS.

Yes, clearly. I think you can see that DV itself doesn't interlace well and has excessive combing. There are ways to clean it up, but you can't do it in Avidemux.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozshots (Post 40737)
I'm also using resize from 720x576 to 1024x576, as my camera shots in widescreen. So I need to do something to increase framerate to 50 FPS?

Your camera doesn't shoot "widescreen" video. It shoots 720x576 standard definition anamorphic PAL DV encoded for 16:9 widescreen DAR (Display Aspect Ratio). It does not shoot square-pixel 1:1 widescreen video. Notice that the PAL mp4 50p video I posted earlier is 720x576 but plays as "widescreen" 16:9. If you want to see 720x576 displayed as 16:9 in an editor like VirtualDub, you can change the display ratio to what it should be for display.

You double the frame rate by deinterlacing for that frame rate and doubling the number of frames. USing yadif at mode=1 (double framerate (bob), temporal and spatial interlacing check) doubles the number of frames for a frame rate of 50fps. I would recommend that yadif is not a very good deinterlacer for poorly interlaced video. QTGMC is the prime production deinterlacer of choice.

The 20060727_2.mkv sample quality is too low for demonstrating possible improvement. The best that can be done with it is to smooth motion, so I didn't work with it. Again, the IRE and gamma levels are too high and brights are clipped. You can't get snappy bright dynamics with clipped brights. Brightening the video won't help restore destroyed data. I also noted your mkv/mp4 encodes use very long 250-frame GOPs, which are inappropriate for any further cuts/edits without seriously degrading the video. You can get improved motion handling using much shorter GOPs.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozshots (Post 40737)
What about audio? lame mp3 is obsolete?

It's not obsolete. But it happens to be among the lowest quality of all lossy audio compressors, even at higher bitrates. If you want DVD or BluRay or compatible specs, mp3 is not allowed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozshots (Post 40742)
Please have a look what I've tried - Yadiff with 50FPS and AAC audio on 224 bitrate.

Attached files: converted_right_aac.zip

Well...it's not exactly converted "right". It has been incorrecrtly deinterlaced using the wrong field order. DVD, BluRay, and several other formats in PAL/NTSC are usually Top Field First (TFF), interlaced. But Dv-AVI is Bottom Field First (BFF). Did you notice the jerky and noisy double images during motion? If you play this video in Virtualdub or other editor and move it frame by frame, one frame at a time, you'll see that the motion is forward-back-forward-back, etc. If you can't see this, I've attached a sample of a part of the mkv with the frame rate slowed to 5 fps to show how the video actually plays:

bad_field_order_original_5fps.mkv (.zip)
The field order can be corrected in Avisynth by separating even and odd frames and interleaving them in reverse order:

Code:

aud = ffaudiosource("converted_right_aac.mkv")
vid = ffvideosource("converted_right_aac.mkv")
audiodub(vid,aud)
v1=last
e=v1.SelectEven()
o=v1.SelectOdd()
Interleave(o,e)
return last

But note that this correction should not have been necessary. The attached video is the result of running that correction script:

field_order_correction.mp4

The correction still has slight residual judder and serious horizontal line twitter from bad deinterlacing and low bitrate encoding. I didn't address those problems. Better to avoid them in the first place.

Avidemux doesn't resize very well. It has softened the original video and made it look rather plastic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozshots (Post 40742)
By the way there are few AAC encoders in Avidemux:
AAC (Faac)
AAC (lav)
AC3 (aften)
AC3 (lav)
Which one to choose?

Any of those encoders will do. If you want mp4, you usually must use AAC.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozshots (Post 40742)
Do you recommend any noise or sharpness filters for my videos?

QTGMC does some denoising and motion interpolation. Primarily QTGMC is not a denoisier in itself, so often other filters have to address specific problems. Trying to clean up sloppy interlace, combing, and aliasing effects with DV is a real chore. That's why I suggested that you should properly deinterlace for double frame rates and not re-interlace these particular movies if you want clean playback. Note that 50 fps is not allowed for DVD disc or standard def BluRay disc. 50p standard definition can be used with mp4, mkv, etc., but if formatted as such the limitation is PC playback or external playback from USB stick, external drive, external media server, or burned to optical disc as "data" files. Note that some external players won't play mkv containers, and some have restrictions with mp4 structure.

If deinterlaced and properly upscaled for HD at 1280x720/50p, that format is BluRay/AVCHD compatible. The .m2t files I posted earlier were encoded for BluRay or PC/TV playback or BluRay disc authoring.

I find apps like Avidemux OK for quick encoding or edits, but they're not adequate for real cleanup, good deinterlacing, or clean resizing. I used Avisynth, VirtualDub, and a very popular separate encoder. Below are abbreviated summaries of the workflow I used, working with decoded lossless media, for the three sample videos I posted earlier:

Workflow summary:

daylight_720p.m2t (1280x720 progressive 50fps, 16:9 (1:1 square pixel)
Initial Colorspace correction (Avisynth): ConverttoYV12(interlaced=true,matrix="Rec601")
Levels correction(in AVisynth/YUV): ColorYUV, SmoothLevels, SmoothTweak
Deinterlace: QTGMC (medium denoising enabled)
Upscale for BluRay/AVCHD: 16-bit dither tools in Avisynth, Spline36Resize to 1280x720
To RGB for VirtualDub color grading: 16-bit Dither_convert_yuv_to_rgb (interlaced=false)
VirtualDub filters: ColorMill, Levels GUI, ColorTools histogram
RGB to YV12 for encoding: VirtualDub output to YV12/Lagarith lossless compression
Encoder: TMPGenc Video Mastering Works 5
Bitrate/GOP: 25-frame GOP, 7500kbps VBR, 50p, x264 encoder
Audio: Dolby AC3, 256kbps, 48KHz

Indoor_576p.mp4 (720x576, progressive 50fps, anamorphic 16:9)
Initial Colorspace correction (Avisynth): ConverttoYV12(interlaced=true,matrix="Rec601")
Levels correction(in AVisynth/YUV): ColorYUV, SmoothLevels
Deinterlace: QTGMC (high denoising enabled)
Denoising: Mdegrain2, TemporalSoften, GradFun3 anti-banding, LimitedSharpenFaster
Resizing: None
To RGB for VirtualDub color grading: 16-bit Dither_convert_yuv_to_rgb (interlaced=false)
VirtualDub filters: Camcorder Color Denoise, ColorMill, Gradation curves, ColorTools histogram
RGB to YV12 for encoding: VirtualDub output to YV12/Lagarith lossless compression
Encoder: TMPGenc Video Mastering Works 5, BT709 color.
Bitrate/GOP: 25-frame GOP, 5000kbps VBR, 50p, anamorphic 16:9 DAR, x264 encoder
Audio: AAC, 253kbps, 48KHz

Indoor_720p.m2t (1280x720 progressive 50fps, 16:9 (1:1 square pixel)
Initial Colorspace correction (Avisynth): ConverttoYV12(interlaced=true,matrix="Rec601")
Levels correction(in AVisynth/YUV): ColorYUV, SmoothLevels, SmoothTweak
Deinterlace: QTGMC (high denoising enabled)
Denoising: Mdegrain2, TemporalSoften, GradFun3 anti-banding, LimitedSharpenFaster
Upscale for BluRay/AVCHD: 16-bit dither tools in Avisynth, Spline36Resize to 1280x720
To RGB for VirtualDub color grading: 16-bit Dither_convert_yuv_to_rgb (interlaced = false)
VirtualDub filters: Camcorder Color Denoise, ColorMill, Gradation curves, ColorTools histogram
RGB to YV12 for encoding: VirtualDub output to YV12/Lagarith lossless compression
Encoder: TMPGenc Video Mastering Works 5
Bitrate/GOP: 25-frame GOP, 7000kbps VBR, 50p, x264 encoder, 16:9 (1:1)
Audio: Dolby AC3, 256kbps, 48KHz

ozshots 11-25-2015 03:23 PM

Hi All,
I’m speechless about this forum… I didn’t get that much help anywhere for a long time!
I’ve tried Avisynth but I get stuck very quickly, as it needed scripts to be created from scratch and I didn’t know where to start. In Avidemux I can setup filters and then save as script.
My output target are files on HDD, I think it’s more convenient comparing to a stack of blue-rays, which get scratched, lost etc.
Thank you for so much advice, I will try to digest it now….

sanlyn 11-25-2015 03:42 PM

I know what you mean about discs. The cheap ones damage easily and don't last anyway. HDD's are a good idea. I hav about 14 or 15b of them myself, and about 3000 DVD/BD retail and home made. Of course if a hard drive goes on the blitz and you have 40 videos on it, well....

I wouldn't bother resizing SD video if its aspect ratio is already 16:9. Set top players and most TV's and Smart TV's can scale to your TV's frame a lot better than the resizers and deinterlacers in most one-stop apps and NLE's.

Avisynth isn't that difficult if you start with some decent samples. It also helps to post the exact code of a script that isn't working, and the exact text of any Avisynth error message. I run Avisynth scripts in Virtualdub. For what you want, you won't get better performance than Avisynth and Virtualdub together. you need more suitable tools. It doesn't have to be that complicated. Everything I mentioned except TMPGEnc is free. But there are free encoders, too -- Avidemux being one, and it can read lossless Avi output saved with Virtualdub.

Anyway, good luck. After some of this holiday rush slows down a bit I'll try posting a sample script if you're interested. The filters and methods I used as noted earlier are pretty much standard operating procedure.

This forum pretty much blew my mind, too, when I first saw it years back. Often enough, it still does.


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