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  #21  
02-14-2020, 11:53 AM
cbehr91 cbehr91 is offline
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EDIT: Both LS and I were typing our replies at the same time. He's the expert, I'm not. If my explanations are pure poppycock/redundant, please delete this post.

DVK = DataVideo DVK-100, a chroma keyer box that when inserted into your video chain between an ES10/15 and your capture device can make a passable TBC (line and frame - you need both in almost all cases).

A proc amp (shorthand for processing amplifier) in simplest terms is a device that in realtime can alter, change, or clean video signals, usually to a set standard. Many frame TBCs have an onboard proc amp, but they're not recommended as the only method for cleaning and restoration.

4:2:0 = the type of chroma subsampling used by PAL DV, terrestrial broadcasts in the United States, and I'm sure in other parts of the world too. It's not recommended for analog video capture, 4:2:2 is.

Don't make DVDs of your tapes with the ES10. It was meant as an "off-air" DVD recorder, a sort of drop-in replacement for taping TV programs with a VCR. It isn't meant to digitize tapes. One of its unintended uses was for a very specialized cleaning of certain video signals (see paragraph after next).

If you capture to lossless AVI you can do simple cuts and edits (such as cutting out commercials) in VirtualDub without re-encoding the video then make DVDs later using your computer.

Correct, that DVS2U has a line TBC. In addition you still need a frame TBC. In the same signal chain both kinds of TBC (line first, then frame) correct different types of errors that are present in VHS tapes and the signal from the VCR. The ES10/15 is preferred for a very specialized type of cleaning of rips, wiggles, and tears at the top of the screen (the technical term is tearing). It's not really a line TBC, but exhibits some qualities of one (I may be still messing up the explanation), hence describing it as TBC(ish) or TBC-like. It also needs a completely uncorrected signal on the input side.

If you'll be using the DVS2 to play your tapes an ES10/15 won't be needed unless you have tapes that exhibit tearing.
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  #22  
02-14-2020, 12:05 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbehr91 View Post
EDIT: Both LS and I were typing our replies at the same time. He's the expert, I'm not. If my explanations are pure poppycock/redundant, please delete this post.
Nope, you nailed it.
And it's never a bad thing to get two separate answers that agree.

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  #23  
02-14-2020, 01:39 PM
Cortez Cortez is offline
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Thanks i get it now.

I thought DVK is a short name (initial, capital letters) for Data Video King or something but this is a standalone device. The DVK-100 is really this big? This is only digitalization not NASA rocket launch .

So (ES10/15 + DVK) ~ (external) TBC? (external) TBC is equals to DataVideo TBC-1000 level?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
VCR > TBC > capture card
is the standard workflow, and will do almost all tapes without issue

VCR (TBC off) > ES10 > TBC > capture card
is an as-needed workflow, generally the standard workflow with ES10 inserted when needed
So the very minimal workflow is a VCR with the TBC on right into a capture card. In the standard workflow (first one) the standalone TBC is like a DataVideo TBC-1000? It has both line and frame TBC or something equivalent? In "as-needed workflow" i assume that ES10 has better line TBC than VCR. So if i am playing a very messy tape and the VCR's TBC cannot handle it i just turn off the VCR's TBC and insert the ES10 into the chain by plugging some cables or changing output.

Any suggestion about the capture card? I realized that this Canopus NX is also a device (inner capture card). Any other acceptable that is connected via USB maybe? The ATI AIW is good? I am affraid that these devices are not compatible with Win 10.

Also are there any exact method to verify the digitalized material? You know for experimental use. I digitalize the same footage with TBC on and off, using ES10 and not. I don't want to inspect the television with a magnifier for searching discolorations, tearings, etc. I don't have that kind of eyes, should be exhausting. I mean a software maybe. At my only digitalization so far the Adobe Premiere shows the dropped frames count. I also find the GSpot application, maybe on this site. Could be this method working to somehow compare the result of my test digitalizations?


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  #24  
02-14-2020, 03:09 PM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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For 99% of tapes your EH65 will do the job as well as the ES10. Maybe it's different for the NTSC units, but I've never had any issues with capturing directly from the ES10 (or any other DVD-recorder) to a capture card other than that they can output macrovision on copy-protected tapes (and DVDs). I don't even see how it would even be capable of outputting anything that wasn't a stable signal but YMMV. It's not like the internal TBC in VCRs, those are very limited in how much they buffer.
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  #25  
02-16-2020, 09:16 AM
Cortez Cortez is offline
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Asking about the capture card.

The VCR is ok. The DMR EH-65 is not the best so i will bid for an ES-10. It has the frame synchronizer (line TBC) if i remember. I searched for the TBC-1000, i found one on the ebay in a very good condition (open - box) with a very high price. Maybe does somebody have one for sale? Without it i can start to digitalize, maybe if i will find or get a messy tape i will search for it again. Maybe later there will be a better offer.

Only the capture card missing. I read that the Win 7 would be better for digitalize. Should i get a dedicated PC for digitalization? What configuration should it have? The capture cards mentioned on the site are ATi All-In-Wonder USB.... and the Canopus NX, etc.. The capture card should have to have some features? I assume it will convert the analog signal to digital for the computer. Does it need to make the video signal better or every other devices in the chain before the capture card should do that?

Are there any categorisation for the issues and what device can fix or at least correct?
For example:
tearing - full frame TBC (DataVideo TBC-1000)
jiggle - line TBC (Panasonic DMR ES-10)
etc.

It would be very helpful
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  #26  
02-20-2020, 03:26 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez View Post
I thought DVK is a short name (initial, capital letters) for Data Video King or something
DataVideo Key = DVK? No idea. Really just trivia anyway, not important.

Quote:
but this is a standalone device.
Yes.

Quote:
The DVK-100 is really this big?
It's about 9x9x5". Not huge, but not small. About half the size of the large wide-body VCRs (AG-1980P, SR-VS20, etc).

Quote:
So (ES10/15 + DVK) ~ (external) TBC? (external) TBC is equals to DataVideo TBC-1000 level?
About 99% effective with combined frame TBC (DVK) + frame sync (ES10/15), as TBC-1000 is frame sync TBC. But with processing noise/artifacts byproducts of the ES10/15.

Quote:
So the very minimal workflow is a VCR with the TBC on right into a capture card.
Yes.

Quote:
In the standard workflow (first one) the standalone TBC is like a DataVideo TBC-1000?
Yes.

Quote:
It has both line and frame TBC or something equivalent?
S-VHS VCR with line TBC pulls line duty, external TBC does frame sync TBC.

Quote:
In "as-needed workflow" i assume that ES10 has better line TBC than VCR.
Not better, different. Stronger, but that has both negatives and positives. Removes tearing, harsh in-image timing wiggles, but ES10 adds unwanted like posterization. It's ideal for a least-worst situation, where standard workflow would be worse than ES10 (even with ES10 downsides)

Quote:
So if i am playing a very messy tape and the VCR's TBC cannot handle it i just turn off the VCR's TBC and insert the ES10 into the chain by plugging some cables or changing output.
Yes.

Quote:
Any suggestion about the capture card? I realized that this Canopus NX is also a device (inner capture card). Any other acceptable that is connected via USB maybe? The ATI AIW is good? I am affraid that these devices are not compatible with Win 10.
ATI 600 USB clones work fine in Win8/10.

Quote:
I also find the GSpot application,
She will be pleased.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
Maybe it's different for the NTSC units,
Likely. The PAL and NTSC often have big differences. jwillis has been seeing some of these, with his ISOBuster research. I've seen some. Even the ES10 isn't identical, but the anti-tearing aspect does appear to be the same.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez View Post
I searched for the TBC-1000, i found one on the ebay in a very good condition (open - box) with a very high price.
Whoever is trying to sell the TBC-1000 for $1300 + tax + shipping (~$1500) is a moron. Prices for TBCs can be in the $500-1k range, and always were, but not that exact unit, even in that exact condition. The market does not support it.

Quote:
Maybe does somebody have one for sale? Without it i can start to digitalize, maybe if i will find or get a messy tape i will search for it again. Maybe later there will be a better offer.
Only the capture card missing.
PM me.

Quote:
I read that the Win 7 would be better for digitalize.
Correct, XP or 7.

Quote:
Should i get a dedicated PC for digitalization?
Yes, it is ideal.

Quote:
What configuration should it have?
If desktop, Asrock board with SATA, dual-core Intel CPU, 2-4gb RAM.

Quote:
The capture cards mentioned on the site are ATi All-In-Wonder USB..
I assume it will convert the analog signal to digital for the computer.
Yes.

Quote:
Does it need to make the video signal better or every other devices in the chain before the capture card should do that?
VCR/TBC makes it better for the capture.

Quote:
Are there any categorisation for the issues and what device can fix or at least correct?
For example:
tearing - full frame TBC (DataVideo TBC-1000)
jiggle - line TBC (Panasonic DMR ES-10)
etc.
standard workflow = VCR with line TBC > external framesync TBC > capture card
tearing workflow = VCR (TBC off) > ES10/15 > external frame/framesync TBC > capture card

Quote:
It would be very helpful
And I hope this post has helped.

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  #27  
02-21-2020, 04:46 AM
Cortez Cortez is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
And I hope this post has helped.
Absolutely. Every word is pure gold. Thanks for the help as always.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
It's about 9x9x5". Not huge, but not small. About half the size of the large wide-body VCRs (AG-1980P, SR-VS20, etc).
The dimensions are fine. I am confused because of the amount of buttons. How to configurate it or how to set the correction properly. Are we talking about this device just to be clear?
https://d17bck4wpaw2mg.cloudfront.ne...01wt8/s98q.jpg

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
About 99% effective with combined frame TBC (DVK) + frame sync (ES10/15), as TBC-1000 is frame sync TBC. But with processing noise/artifacts byproducts of the ES10/15.
...
Not better, different. Stronger, but that has both negatives and positives. Removes tearing, harsh in-image timing wiggles, but ES10 adds unwanted like posterization. It's ideal for a least-worst situation, where standard workflow would be worse than ES10 (even with ES10 downsides)
So the ES10 adds side effects to the video signal (noise, posterization) but TBC-1000 not? This is the 1% difference? TBC-1000 is the best TBC that i need? Adds no negative effects to the video signal just clearing as much as possible. I assume the two device has different correction mechanism and the TBC-1000 has better with no side effects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Whoever is trying to sell the TBC-1000 for $1300 + tax + shipping (~$1500) is a moron. Prices for TBCs can be in the $500-1k range, and always were, but not that exact unit, even in that exact condition. The market does not support it.
I found it for $1299 for now there is a special offer to $1000 + shipping. I have already ordered an ES10 and a DVK-100 for ~$150. I know this is not as good as the TBC-1000 and very confusing me with the buttons. I would prefer the TBC-1000 because i plug the cables maybe handle some switches and i can be sure that the device will correct the signal according to its abilities. This is why i would like to buy one. The one for $1000 is brand new, just opened the box. I saw only the front side of the device.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
PM me.
I would if you don't mind

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
If desktop, Asrock board with SATA, dual-core Intel CPU, 2-4gb RAM.
Are there any topic there you talked about it? Maybe a complete configuration? Any Asrock motherboard is fine with SATA? The modern computers with old OS is not good? I know it is overhead with an i7, 1 TB SSD and 16 GB RAM but it depends on the OS or the OS + configuration? Maybe you just have to reach a system requirements like for the computer games? The older configurations are cheaper if you can find one unlike the modern computers are more expensive and you use the ~30% of the capacity (CPU, RAM).
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