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  #1  
02-13-2020, 09:22 AM
Cortez Cortez is offline
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Hello everyone.

I just registered. I read all the guides and most of the forum topics. I get more information in just days on this forum than in weeks before on others. Thanks for sharing those informations. I decided to start a new thread. Everyone could do that (a personal topic) because everyone has special requirements and different devices. The top of it I don't speak English very well so sorry for that.
I already bought some devices as you can see in the attachments:
- JVC HR-DVS2
- Panasonic DMR EH-65
- Ordered a Canopus ADVC-300 (not the best idea)
- I found a JVC HM-DR10000

First i bought the Panasonic because i had a VCR at home. Later bought the JVC HR-DVS2 because i realized that my old JVC VCR is low consumer. I searched the most expensive VCR-s on the second hand market - JVCs only - for the best result. The other device was a JVC HR-S9xxx, i don't remember exactly and it sold already.

Is this JVC HR-DVS2 is good for digitalizing (capturing) because i didn't find it on this site in the suggested VCR's list?

I thought it is a better choice because it has a miniDV player also, so i don't have to buy an another player for miniDV cassettes.

Now as i searched again on that site i found this JVC HM-DR10000. On the backside there is a DV - In on the bottom and there is an another Firewire port.

Is that port for DV out so i can send the tape already in digital to the computer? Is the DR1000 worth against the DVS2?
In the DVS2 there is TBC/NR and other help. The DR1000 is better in some aspects? If the DV out could be working i have already have a digital output from the VHS.

Everywhere i read you suggest the following setup:
VCR - TBC - Capture card

The TBC can handle every video issues(blurring, color, etc.)?
I imagine the TBC as an all mighty device. The TBC in the VCR is not the best, right? We need a separated tool for that with full-frame TBC?

I have a modern PC (i5, SSD, Win10) and i bought a PCI-E Firewire card. I have already captured some footage from miniDV via Firewire cable. 18 sec was 70 MB, the quality was ok.
What ports are the favorite for you or the best?
The inside card in the PCI, AGP, PCI-E slots? The outer USB ports like ATI AIW? Thunderbolt or Firewire?

I am just at the beginning so sorry for stupid questions. Maybe i misunderstood some informations on the site or didn't understand at all.

I am very thankful for any help.


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  #2  
02-13-2020, 10:03 AM
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HR-DVS2, aka SR-VS20, can be fine for VHS, but really depends on condition.

Never use the DV tape for MiniDV tapes. JVC DV decks had a design flaw, and was more likely to eat the tape than play it. A MiniDV camera is a far wiser move. The JVCs can also play the pro format DVCAM, still with the same risks.

(Those decks were extremely heavy, and any mishandling tended to damage both the exterior and interior of the units. The faceplate uses thinner-than-normal JVC resin-type plastic, and could shatter like an egg thrown at a brick wall. I really hate shipping these, as transit breakage likelihood is high. Anybody getting one of these via mail should expect a 50/50 chance if it arriving DOA. Even my extreme detail to shipping, with an impressive amount of bubbles and padding, is no match for careless goobers that work at shipping facilities. For this reason, I often avoid this model unit.)

Turn 3R off on the JVC.

I don't believe that Panasonic DVD recorder is anything special. Maybe one of our PAL users can chime in? It would need to be the equivalent of the ES15+HDD to be useful.

Correct, ADVC-300 was a mistake -- an expensive mistake, as the 300 cards are worse quality than cards that are generally less than half the price. $300+ average, which is ridiculous. The 300 model is a problem because of the aggressive filters that are on even when "off". The 50/55/100/110 don't have the problem. For NTSC, Canopus DV boxes will throw out 50+% of the color quality, which is already pretty low on VHS tapes. For PAL, the 4:2:0 colospace compression as fine, and loss is minimal for non-restoration/editing needs. Those DV conversion boxes were designed for Pentium III computers in the mid 1990s. The tech is ancient, not legacy.

JVC HM-DR10000 is a D-VHS deck that was not great. And D-VHS itself isn't great, as the decks tend to be more attuned to SP only playback for VHS and S-VHS.

"DV out" from a JVC deck isn't DV out. It's IEEE1394, and gives MPEG output. There are threads on this forum about CapDVHS. DV input is converting to D-VHS / MPEG-TS.

TBC is a time base corrector, and the sole function is to correct the signal. It does not unblur video, correct colors, etc. The line TBC in the VCR is there to improve/correct the visuals (remove wiggle, chroma noise, etc). And the external frame TBC is there to correct the signal, so that smooth capturing of the video is allowed. Line has some signal correction byproducts, frame has some image correction byproducts.

A TBC is required for analog tape conversion, not optional. Both line and frame are required.

Communication ports don't have a "best". These are simply different. AGP, PCI, SATA, USB, Thunderbolt, etc. Use what is required for the device.

Your comprehension thus far seems fine to me.

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  #3  
02-13-2020, 11:04 AM
Cortez Cortez is offline
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Your comprehension thus far seems fine to me.
I am happy to see it.

At least i didn't do a mistake with the VCR. So the DR10000 is nothing special. So the "DV out" is actually a FireWire 400 that gives MPEG output in digital? This is what we need at the end of the process? AVI for editing and MPEG for minimal cutting? The signal won't go through some correction procedure but the signal could be saved on the computer? Anyway the signal cannot be corrected by software if the hardware quality is poor, right? First we need correct the signal by hardware if it's possible as much as it's possible.
My conclusion is that if the video is watchable (minimum quality) most people find the low budget (for example: EASYCAP) digitalization satisfied. The trouble begins when the tapes have some damage. Then you need every possible correction that you have. Low budget devices can also decrease quality but for bad tapes you need better quality. Unfortunately, there are more damaged tapes. I also watched a movie from an old tape where the video ?flittering?. Jumps up-up very often.

In my country (in this era), in East-Center Europe the Canopus is the Holy Grail. Official memory rescue studios advertise themself for using the Grass Valley products for the digitalization. But as we know there are better solutions. So you can imagine the requirements for the quality. I don't have keen eyes either but some issues i can find easily as well especially in anime movies. The line looks like a comb instead straight and the texts are not readable.

So what do you think what is the next step? The VCR has a line TBC at least. I saw nowhere mentioned the type of the TBC. The next device should be a full-frame TBC? It has a digital output or still a corrected analog signal? If it is still analog can you suggest me a quality capture card? As i mentioned i have a modern pc. If the capture card could be cooperative with it, it would be great. But if it's needed i get an XP/Win 7 era computer dedicated for only digitalization.
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02-13-2020, 12:05 PM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Panasonic EH-65 performs like the Panasonic ES-15 and has an hdmi out connector. But just to remember the jitter correction from the ES-10 is better as from the ES-15 & EH65.
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  #5  
02-13-2020, 12:27 PM
Cortez Cortez is offline
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I found a used one. Does it worth to replace with the EH-65? If i should buy a full frame TBC this jitter effect is still there? TBC can handle a lot of issues by itself but there could be others. Frame drops is quite a big problem, right? The more the frame drops ends the more audio - video desynchronization. So you need to synchronize them. It is the most annoying for me when i see the lips moving but i don't hear talking anyone. TBC can reduce or eliminate frame droppings? Correct me if i misunderstood something.

EH-65 is very useful because i can play my old PS2 games on smart TV.
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02-13-2020, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez View Post
...I found this JVC HM-DR10000. On the backside there is a DV... Is that port for DV out so i can send the tape already in digital to the computer?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez View Post
... So the DR10000 "DV out" is actually a FireWire 400 that gives MPEG output in digital? This is what we need at the end of the process?
If you're talking about a PAL HM-DR10000, there is no digital output from the deck — not "DV-out", nor "MPEG-out". It was disabled at the hardware level, by design. PAL units are "DV-in" only. The connection at the rear is actually a "service port".
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  #7  
02-14-2020, 02:28 AM
Cortez Cortez is offline
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The description says: Made in Japan. I don't know they are using PAL or NTSC. It doesn't matter we discussed that this VCR is not worth. Thanks for the information.
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02-14-2020, 02:48 AM
Cortez Cortez is offline
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I found this ES-10: (image attached)

Should i buy it? The bidding ends in 3 days. On Ebay i found more ES-10 but those are more expensive. Is this worthy? Looks different than the others on the ebay but the capability is the same or maybe this is not from that era that it should be ? (for example from 2003 to 2006 and this is younger so the quality drops)

You consider the Panasonics DMR ES-10 as a suggested device in the digitalization workflow? You have to connect this before or after the TBC?

By the way the only DataVideo TBC-1000 that i found is on ebay and its condition is "open box" and very expensive. Are there any suggested alternatives?


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  #9  
02-14-2020, 04:33 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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I'm only aware of three JVC HM-DR10000 models; all are PAL (but can play NTSC tapes). The full model numbers shown on the back are:
  1. HM-DR10000EU
  2. HM-DR10000EK (United Kingdom)
  3. HM-DR10000MS (France)
Here is my list of all JVC D-VHS models I've found reference to. The US model suffix would be HM-DR10000U, but all results that Google comes up with for this are merely typos: an example on the Tapeheads forum (featuring users who also post here).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez View Post
I found this ES-10 ... Looks different than the others on the ebay
Howso? Your photo is a European model from outside the UK, judging by the ShowView logo on the left. The UK models say "VideoPlus".
  1. Panasonic DMR-ES10EB-S = Britain, Silver
  2. Panasonic DMR-ES10EG-S = Germany, Silver
  3. Panasonic DMR-ES10EG-K = Germany, Black
I'm sure there are more. For VHS input, they should be equivalent.

You need to avoid the North American model, which is NTSC-only. You also need to be careful that the thing actually works and that you can return it if it doesn't, as they are developing capacitor failures in recent years.

You don't need the DVD drive to work, if you can find a broken-drive model for cheaper. I bought my NTSC DMR-ES15 this way and it's worked fine for passthrough ever since I got it, years ago. Mind you, it is a little bit annoying that it keeps wanting to eject the tray whenever it realizes that it's having a problem reading the non-existent disc.
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02-14-2020, 04:56 AM
Cortez Cortez is offline
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Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
You don't need the DVD drive to work, if you can find a broken-drive model for cheaper. I bought my NTSC DMR-ES15 this way and it's worked fine for passthrough ever since I got it, years ago. Mind you, it is a little bit annoying that it keeps wanting to eject the tray whenever it realizes that it's having a problem reading the non-existent disc.
Let's start from the beginning please. In much topic here I read that the ES-10 is "stronger" than the ES-15. I don't know how will i notice it or when and how does the difference will show up. Can we say that if i can get an ES-10 i should choose that? I searched all the ES-10 and ES-15 in my country on the second hand sites and i found only one ES-10 and three ES-15 (one is broken).

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Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
Howso? Your photo is a European model from outside the UK
What i mean is that every model has the same inside specification? Maybe for different region there are different ports on the back that is completely fine. But an older / younger model specification has been changed and maybe the manufacturer replaced a reliable chip with an other. So doesn't matter which ES-10 model i found or choose it will guarantee the same quality?

I would like to ask also that ES-10 is necessary in the workflow anyway? Its synchronization is essential if there are frame droppings and nothing can do its job? I am thinking that i buy this device, later i get a suggested TBC and there is no difference if i send through the video signal in the ES-10 or not. I am affraid it becomes needless.
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02-14-2020, 06:39 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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If you'll use the ES-10 you have to turn off the tbc from the vcr. The ES-10 clean the picture and after the ES-10 the external tbc (Datavideo or......) clean the signal (Macrovision, wrong macrovision........). If you use a vcr with tbc the ES-10 is useless. Important is the first tbc in your capture chain.
If you have bad tapes you won't found nothing better as the ES-10 but if you have tapes where the luma is out of range (over 255) the ES-10and any other Panasonic DMR will clipping the superwhite and it isn't possible to make this visible again. In most cases you'll need some sort of ProcAmp before the ES-10.

Have a look at this thread to my answer #7 to imagine what I'm talking about. Have a look at the white words WTA-Tour and watch the waveform monitor output. The capture should be between 0-100 IRE.

Sony RDR-AT200 DVD recorder as TBC, capture via HDMI?
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  #12  
02-14-2020, 06:47 AM
msgohan msgohan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez View Post
Let's start from the beginning please. In much topic here I read that the ES-10 is "stronger" than the ES-15. I don't know how will i notice it or when and how does the difference will show up. Can we say that if i can get an ES-10 i should choose that?
The PAL DMR-ES10 is considered more powerful than the PAL DMR-ES15. I believe all of the research on this topic was done on the German Gleitz forum. The user Bogilein can probably share better information than I can, as I've never used the PAL models and can't read German without Google Translate. The user who goes by datanord on YouTube (I forget his DigitalFAQ Forum name but he is a member here) has compared both.

Quote:
What i mean is that every model has the same inside specification? Maybe for different region there are different ports on the back that is completely fine. But an older / younger model specification has been changed and maybe the manufacturer replaced a reliable chip with an other. So doesn't matter which ES-10 model i found or choose it will guarantee the same quality?
The truth is that we don't know whether there were any running changes in manufacture that could affect A/V quality. The best I can say is that no one has ever identified any such issue, to my knowledge.

Quote:
I would like to ask also that ES-10 is necessary in the workflow anyway? Its synchronization is essential if there are frame droppings and nothing can do its job? I am thinking that i buy this device, later i get a suggested TBC and there is no difference if i send through the video signal in the ES-10 or not. I am affraid it becomes needless.
I think you're getting in over your head, acquiring hardware before you've encountered tapes that need it.

Lordsmurf has never tried an HDMI workflow, sanlyn hates HDMI, and latreche34 prefers an SDI workflow, but my personal preference would be to capture the HDMI output from the DMR-EH65 as Bogilein sort of hinted at:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
Panasonic EH-65 performs like the Panasonic ES-15 and has an hdmi out connector. But just to remember the jitter correction from the ES-10 is better as from the ES-15 & EH65.
But you need to add an analog proc amp to avoid this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
if you have tapes where the luma is out of range (over 255) the ES-10and any other Panasonic DMR will clipping the superwhite and it isn't possible to make this visible again. In most cases you'll need some sort of ProcAmp before the ES-10.

Have a look at this thread to my answer #7 to imagine what I'm talking about.

Sony RDR-AT200 DVD recorder as TBC, capture via HDMI?
There is also a 2016 thread on this Panasonic over-bright clipping topic started by Australian user Jarvis: Panasonic DMR-ES10 review, with proc amps

An HDMI workflow also requires adding an HDCP-stripping HDMI splitter (not just any splitter!) or possibly using an HDMI capture device that ignores HDCP. Advantages of capturing HDMI: avoids the traditional added Digital-Analog-Digital step of going from external TBC to analog capture card, should avoid A/V sync problems, allows you to capture with any modern PC/Mac running any modern OS.

See here for a long thread that includes many video samples, including DV-compressed VHS output of JVC HR-DVS3 compared to lossless capture: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...ods-comparison
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  #13  
02-14-2020, 07:09 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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We haven't talked about the capture card. If available and the user is from pal country my advice would be the canopus/edius nx. It doesn't matter if you use the analog or the hdmi outputs to capture the panasonic dmrs always clip video content over 255. I have tesed the ES-10, ES-15, EH-65,EH-495.
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  #14  
02-14-2020, 09:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez View Post
Let's start from the beginning please. In much topic here I read that the ES-10 is "stronger" than the ES-15.
This is true of both PAL and NTSC models, which are internally similar. But the strength doesn't really show through until you playback tougher tapes. Since I specialize in restoration, I see this all the time. How often you'll see it depends on the condition of the tapes (referring to signal condition, not physical).

Quote:
I would like to ask also that ES-10 is necessary in the workflow anyway? Its synchronization is essential if there are frame droppings and nothing can do its job? I am thinking that i buy this device, later i get a suggested TBC and there is no difference if i send through the video signal in the ES-10 or not. I am affraid it becomes needless.
Not correct. Some sort of TBC is required between the VCR and capture card. VHS is more like controlled chaos that a video signal. That chaos was ignored by analog CRT TVs, but digital devices will completely choke on it. The signal must be processed and purified for digital conversion. Frame-level is required, and line-level is highly suggested due to extra quality improvements.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
If you'll use the ES-10 you have to turn off the tbc from the vcr.
Correct. You can chain line and frame, but not line+line or frame+frame. In line+line and frame+frame scenarios, only the first device affects the signal. So the VCR TBC is off. However, the reason for that VCR then become non-TBC aspects, such as transport build quality, signal stability, etc. Which in most cases still necessitates the recommended S-VHS VCR.

Quote:
The ES-10 clean the picture and after the ES-10 the external tbc (Datavideo or......) clean the signal (Macrovision, wrong macrovision........). If you use a vcr with tbc the ES-10 is useless. Important is the first tbc in your capture chain.
It's actually not entirely useless, just mostly. There can be some mild post-VCR cleanup that can still happened. But again, the ES10/15 has downsides (posterization, aggressive NR, etc), so not necessarily recommended for always-on (always in workflow) use. It really depends on sources, final projects goals, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by msgohan View Post
The truth is that we don't know whether there were any running changes in manufacture that could affect A/V quality. The best I can say is that no one has ever identified any such issue, to my knowledge.
I've not see a large sampling of the PAL ES10, due to high import costs, and need, but I've never seen production changes on this item. I'm seen it quite often on others, just not this. The DMR-ES10 was not a long-lived item, so a running change is not likely. More likely would be that production simply ceased if parts became unavailable. That happens just as much as running changes.

Quote:
I think you're getting in over your head, acquiring hardware before you've encountered tapes that need it.
Maybe. He needs an essential workflow: VCR, TBC, capture card. Stuff like the ES10 -- unless using it as a budget TBC(ish), combined with the DVK -- is not often needed. Tearing is a common problem, but not so common that every user will see it, or even majority of users. Thus the ES10 won't be needed for non-budget setup.

Quote:
Lordsmurf has never tried an HDMI workflow
"Not tried" isn't accurate, but "does not use" certainly is.

Quote:
But you need to add an analog proc amp to avoid this:
Or perhaps a TBC with integrated proc amp, like green AVT-8710? Though weaker than full proc amp, I'd think it can certainly address the mild tweak needed for capture.

I've been dabbling with my green AVT-8710, a mere +1 brightness for clipped blacks (something I only saw after numerous tests, with it only existing on badly-shot dark camcorder footage; and again, the capture card isn't "clipping blacks", a connotation that blames the capture card, but rather the tape had illegal black values). The +1 doesn't seem to affect any actual brightness, but lightens darks.

Quote:
Advantages of capturing HDMI: avoids the traditional added Digital-Analog-Digital step of going from external TBC to analog capture card,
Too much is made of this. It's really not too different from re-encoding lossless to another lossless. At worst, lossless to some semi-lossy (visually lossless) like ProRes422.

Quote:
should avoid A/V sync problems,
HDMI cards can still lose audio sync. Just as DV cards can (including those with marketed nonsense "audio lock").

Quote:
allows you to capture with any modern PC/Mac running any modern OS.
Many decent analog cards still work in modern OS. The bigger issue is that modern OS are video unfriendly, attuned to tablets and Facebook, as opposed to heavy tasks like video conversion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
We haven't talked about the capture card. If available and the user is from pal country my advice would be the canopus/edius nx. It doesn't matter if you use the analog or the hdmi outputs to capture the panasonic dmrs always clip video content over 255. I have tesed the ES-10, ES-15, EH-65,EH-495.
Why suggest lossy DV 4:2:0? Sure, for PAL, 4:2:0 is fine, alternating full-bandwidth chroma. It's not as bad as quartered chroma of NTSC DV. But neither are 4:2:2 lossless to the original. That would be most ideal of all. Again, it depends on sources and project needs -- referring only to 4:2:0. That's similar to DVD, and doesn't have overly noticeable drop in color quality. But it's a drop nonetheless, and can hamper any restoration or editing.

Quote:
always clip video content over 255.
255 is the max (RGB), and you mean 235 (YUV). But there's not much data in that 236-255 YUV range, and it's considered an illegal value (white-than-white, super-white). Unless a source was damaged, or used cheap/bad equipment, or exists as an nth gen copy (copy of copy, ad infinitum), no illegal black/white values should exist on VHS tapes.

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  #15  
02-14-2020, 09:59 AM
hodgey hodgey is offline
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Maybe it's just my units, but I've found my ES10 and EH57 both tend to clip (i.e brightest spots end up being >255 Y) on most tapes so I have to lower the video level to avoid it (currently using a home-made potentiometer thingy). Seems like it's a bit more than simply "illegal levels" on tapes. If the EH65 is similar in performance to the EH57 you should be fine with that unless you have extremely messed up tapes.

I'm not sure if an VHS tape can really have illegal values as such, at least not bright ones, due to the fm modulation operating on fixed frequencies, where the max and minimum are specified. VHS Recorders are also supposed to clip if the input video is too bright when recording to tape to avoid fm modulation issues (otherwise one gets black streaks on sharp transitions).
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02-14-2020, 10:27 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Why suggest lossy DV 4:2:0? Sure, for PAL, 4:2:0 is fine, alternating full-bandwidth chroma. It's not as bad as quartered chroma of NTSC DV. But neither are 4:2:2 lossless to the original. That would be most ideal of all. Again, it depends on sources and project needs -- referring only to 4:2:0. That's similar to DVD, and doesn't have overly noticeable drop in color quality. But it's a drop nonetheless, and can hamper any restoration or editing.


255 is the max (RGB), and you mean 235 (YUV). But there's not much data in that 236-255 YUV range, and it's considered an illegal value (white-than-white, super-white). Unless a source was damaged, or used cheap/bad equipment, or exists as an nth gen copy (copy of copy, ad infinitum), no illegal black/white values should exist on VHS tapes.
Mr. Smurf,
the Canopus NX has procAmp features and capture uncompressed in YUV2. There is no dv conversation. I don't know why you and Mr. Sanlyn always claim that it is the same as the Canopus ADVC units. You should try to test one yourself before you spread false informormation.

I have many tapes recorded with a Siemens vcr (Sanyo) back at the end of the eighties where the white level is out of range. I collect tennis matches from this era and the white is often clipped. In my example with the WTA-Tour words you see the difference and this happend with every panasonic dmr I have tested and it doesn't matter if I try to adjust the brightness, contrast. You can't read the WTA-Tour. It has something to do with the dmr's AGC control. The problem most users will not recognize it. But if you know it you will see your captures with different eyes. And I have seen many tennis matches on dvd made with Panasonic DMR's where the white part is clipped.
This match is one of my test tapes to see if a capture card has a real procAmp or a fake procAmp and you can see how and how fast the agc from captures cards or dvd recorders work. The AGC from the JVC DR-M10 is too slow, much better the late Sony/Pioneer dvd recorders and for example all the Pinnacle USB capture boxes fail. With these boxes it's not possible to make it visible. That what you can do with the procAmp features from the Pinnacle USB boxes is the same you can do in postproduction.
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  #17  
02-14-2020, 10:29 AM
Cortez Cortez is offline
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I am getting to lost in the informations.

First clear up some things:
  1. DVK
  2. proc amp
  3. 4:2:0
I would like to export/copy the digitalized video to a Digital Media (DVD, Pen drive, HDD, etc.) only from PC. I know that some hardware has capability to cut the video precisely before digitalization (JOG) and send as much video as we need. For example a movie from the beginning to the end cutting out the advertisments. I also know that for example the ES-10 can write DVD but both of these operations can be done on PC in a specialized software that is very convenient.

I am watching the VHS cassetts still and the clips that i would like to digitalize are quite ok. I think it would be a good idea to buy one ES-10 for later use because if i will find a bad tape i will need it.
As you said there are two types of TBC that we need: line TBC and (full?)-frame TBC. If we already have one of them in the workflow then we don't need a second one later. But we need both (one line and one full frame TBC). The DVS2 already has line TBC as far as i know. The ES-10 has some TBC(ish) TBC. What does that mean? With DVS2 and ES-10 i will have a line+line.
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  #18  
02-14-2020, 11:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
Mr. Smurf, the Canopus NX
I don't know why you ... always claim that it is the same as the Canopus ADVC units. You should try to test one yourself before you spread false informormation.
I'm not spreading anything, I just overlooked the "NX" part. That happens when replying to long threads, big multi-quote reply window. Correct, the NX does uncompressed (4:2:2; what about 4:4:4?), in addition to DV. Does it do lossless? Or are you constrained to only using the proprietary Edius software? Because the you get into NLE capturing, and that can be a problem (resource overhead, no dropped frames counter, etc).

Quote:
I have many tapes recorded with a Siemens vcr (Sanyo) back at the end of the eighties where the white level is out of range.
What is your final workflow to handle those?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez View Post
I am getting to lost in the informations.
First clear up some things:
DVK
proc amp
4:2:0
Welcome to video. It can be confusing.

DataVideo DVK is unit that provides some frame-level TBC, but must have a stable input signal. That means no uncorrected (line TBC) VHS tapes. The DVK is a chroma key designed for input from live-camera, BetacamSP, or even DV (yes, digital in analog workflow scenario). Not crummy consumer analog tapes.

The ES10/15 has strong line TBC(ish) abilities, weakened due to anti-copy (and thus false anti-copy), and therefore has no real frame-timed signal output. The ES10/15 doesn't seem to choke on the source as much as it seemingly disengages the TBC(ish) and passes the errors.

The ES10/15+DVK, however, creates a chain that is 99% as effective as an external TBC. But it also has drawbacks on the ES10/15, namely posterization and aggressive NR that doesn't fully turn off even when "off". But it's a great "poor man's TBC" for about half the cost. Whether it will suffice completely depends on the project goals. If just converting, especially for low quality deinterlaced Youtube, it's fine. If you want to restore or edit the project, it can hinder quality.

Understand DVK better?

Proc amp = processor/amplifier ... not a video useful name, is it?
This is essentially a color tweaked/change box. Brightness, contrast, IRE/black, color saturation, color tint, etc. Exact controls vary. Some are even RGB (tweak only red/blue/green values), while most are YUV. Sometimes other devices have proc amp built in, but often much weaker than standalone proc amp.

4:2:0 is colorspace. 4 is the luma, or B&W/green part of image. The 2:2/2:0/1:1 represents color red/blue data, which is reduced in size for bandwidth. You almost never see 4:4:4 images on video, but 4:2:2 at best. 2:2 is half color to luma, essentially "uncompressed" in this conversation. 2:0 is actually shorthand, and is actually 2:2 alternating. So you get full bandwidth, just no together. It's better than quartered 4:1:1 color, which is noticeably reduced quality. Wikipedia may have images of all of this, though some of the user-submitted definitions are not fully accurate.

Quote:
As you said there are two types of TBC that we need: line TBC and (full?)-frame TBC.
Correct.

Quote:
If we already have one of them in the workflow then we don't need a second one later. But we need both (one line and one full frame TBC). The DVS2 already has line TBC as far as i know. The ES-10 has some TBC(ish) TBC. What does that mean? With DVS2 and ES-10 i will have a line+line.
The JVC is disabled in this scenario. The reason to use the deck is then just the non-TBC aspects. The ES10 serves as line.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
I'm not sure if an VHS tape can really have illegal values as such, at least not bright ones, due to the fm modulation operating on fixed frequencies, where the max and minimum are specified. VHS Recorders are also supposed to clip if the input video is too bright when recording to tape to avoid fm modulation issues (otherwise one gets black streaks on sharp transitions).
I think "as such" is probably the keyword, to get technical. What I see happening is the video contains issues that cause the AGC to overdrive. Even with proc amp pre-processing, I've seen this happen, and it's nasty.

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  #19  
02-14-2020, 11:30 AM
Bogilein Bogilein is offline
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Before you think about the tbc you should decide which vcr & which capture card you will buy.
The advice what kind of tbc you have to use depends on your tapes. Often the ES-10 is overkill for most tapes.

Many of us have more that one vcr, tbc, capture card because not every tape works well with every hardware. You can read here what some of us have collect and use to capture.

How many VCR decks do you have for capture?

Possible capture workflows:
SVHS (with TBC)-external TBC-Capture Card
SVHS-DVDRecorder (Passthrough)-(external TBC)-Capture Card
SVHS (with or without TBC)-(DVD Recorder passthrough)-Canopus NX
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  #20  
02-14-2020, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bogilein View Post
Before you think about the tbc you should decide which vcr & which capture card you will buy.
The advice what kind of tbc you have to use depends on your tapes. Often the ES-10 is overkill for most tapes.

Many of us have more that one vcr, tbc, capture card because not every tape works well with every hardware. You can read here what some of us have collect and use to capture.

How many VCR decks do you have for capture?

Possible capture workflows:
SVHS (with TBC)-external TBC-Capture Card
SVHS-DVDRecorder (Passthrough)-(external TBC)-Capture Card
SVHS (with or without TBC)-(DVD Recorder passthrough)-Canopus NX
I'd expand on this:

VCR > TBC > capture card
is the standard workflow, and will do almost all tapes without issue

VCR (TBC off) > ES10 > TBC > capture card
is an as-needed workflow, generally the standard workflow with ES10 inserted when needed

VCR (TBC off) > ES10 / DVK > capture card
is a budget workflow, trying to cut costs on buying the actual TBC.
And again, for some projects, this is fine. I've built workflows like this for others, fits within their tihgt budget, and they get great performance from it. But I find most users opt for the true TBC, when available. There have been dark times when no TBC can be located, and it's this or nothing.

I probably own more VCRs, TBCs, and capture cards than anybody at this site. Yet I find myself using the same few items, standard VCR>TBC>card workflow, almost all the time. Lots of gear literally sites and collects dust for months at a time, until needed.

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