Hardware for a PAL VHS project?
 

Dear forum members,

This is for a project on digitizing VHS tapes.
The last two weeks I've been researching on this forum. This time spent was while I was at my job, home at night: all the time I could. Very informative and enjoyable, and giving me a clear direction for the first time in years
A little over a week ago I've made an account, thanking specific posts that answered my questions.

At the moment I have 5 PAL VHS tapes and one NTSC VHS tape from a pupil of my grandfather, with their dance performances. I also have two DVDs with two of the tapes on it, to compare to my own upcoming captures.

I'm using this project to learn on how to digitize properly, and use this knowledge to extend it to:

VHS
1. the VHS collection of my grandfather of pre-1950s cinema (this consists of a wall full of videotapes, recorded or bought in the 90s and early 2000s. I fondly remember his search for tapes in "mint" condition. Currently in storage facility.

2. the VHS collection of a local volunteer-run cinema, for the past 30 years collecting dust (and what else?) in a smoky office room.

miniDV
3. The miniDV tapes of family members and my own "short films" as a teenager

Audio cassettes
4. Record and upload all audio cassette tapes of grandparents for family members to listen to.

5. Retro gaming capturing

Below is my setup. Any thoughts? I read the recommended VCR and capture cards. So far I've collected the below items. If possible, I'd like to start and use mainly Windows 7 on a Lenovo i5 3th generation X230. Underneath there are also semi-affordable alternatives I could get. My budget is low, but over the years I've been able to slowly prepare for this project and learn a lot more in the past two weeks than in previous times.

Current, items bought second-hand 2013-2020

JVC-HRs5970 with remote - 120 EUR
Philips VR1100 with remote - 115 EUR
I-O Data GV-USB2 - 75 EUR
Monster s-video to s-video cable - 15 EUR
Monster s-video to scart cable (one direction) - 15 EUR
Vivanco gold-coated scart to scart cable - 0 EUR
Unbranded gold-coated scart to s-video cables - 10 EUR

Available OS

Windows 7

Planning to use software and settings

Virtualdub with suggested settings on the forum, lossless capture

Optional buys, second-hand

Compro Videomate U900 (USB 2 0)
Hauppauge WinTV HVR-1100
Philips VR-1600
Canopus ADVC-110
Panasonic AG-7150

Optional actions

Check VCR tapes for mold through the transparent part of the plastic, do not use if moldy

Clean VCR recorders with non-cotton swabs and 96% alcohol

Alternative OS and capture card I have available in-house

MacOS 10.14 Mojave
Linux Mint
Miglia TV Max+ with an older EyeTV (I don't think that software can do losless)
A Funai DVD/VCR combo with scart output for VHS

Optional learning to do

Avisynth video restoration scripting :)

Recently missed objects - sold to someone else at a thrift store/ebay before I could go home to get my payment card.

DMR-ES35V
ATI Wonder 600 USB

That's a lot random gear.

Model should be fine, hopefully exact unit is as well. That's a low price, so you always have to wonder what's wrong with it.

For capture, won't really help. Good as backup utility VCR, for preview, REW, etc. But probably not capturing. Only exception is if paired with ES10/15, but realize you get negatives/drawbacks of the ES10/15.

Not good, or not useful, or both.

Most s-video cables are decent quality. Ironically, it's stuff like Monster that is the worst. The usual problem is head quality. Gold makes pretty jewelry, but really does not matter for the video/audio carriage. You need a good head that doesn't grip too tight, nor fall out. Cables shielding is good, but it doesn't take much, and a lot of "thick cables" just have excess rubber goo sheething.

Good. :congrats:

I don't remember models off-hand. Do these have line/field TBCs?
If not, then blah.
If so, then research mode in forum.

Always.

I'm finding that more and more swabs are getting bad. I'm seeing "head cleaning"/foam swabs switch to open-cell foam, which is bad. Chamois quality lowering and raggedy. dSLR sensors swabs now have several kinds, all expensive, and the oldest best ones harder to come by. I've therefore swapped to paper, and (mostly) adopting TGrant's cleaning method. I need to make a guide on this.

It's never-ending learning, always situation based. I know a lot, but I'm constantly learning. It's really a crowdsource effort, both for development and usage (and usage needs spurn yet more development). I want to make guides sharing what I know, but just no time yet.

I've still not seen where that Panasonic is good (not ES10/15 type), but the ATI 600 USB was a missed opportunity.

Thanks for the in-depth response. Very useful, learning hard and fast. :)
Yes, a shame about the ATI 600 USB.

Would these be good alternatives for a 600 USB?

- ATI TV WONDER USB HD 650
- ATI TV Wonder HD 600 Hybrid Tuner (PCI express)

I'll check the status of my VR-1100, and the specs for the other 2 models mentioned.

Philips VR1600 is very similar to the VR1100, same base just with some extra editing functions.
Panasonic AG7150 is playback only version of AG7350, nice image quality, but SP only and no TBC, so you would want to use it with a Panasonic or other DVR with TBC capability.

No.

650 has AGC issues.
600 PCI entirely different card, also not good.

Oh yes :laugh:

Ok. Is a Philips VR1100 with TBC/DNR on better than JVC>ES10/15? Hope so :hmm:
I would need to look up what are those negatives. I might sell the JVC.

Good, great to know, thanks! From amazon reviews to affiliated-link-filled articles, the information about this has been very confusing until coming here.

Thank you, I found the posts about the PCI having a completely different chipset.
AGC issues seem to be relating to the brightness changes?

Thank you, would any of the editing functions of VR1600 be necessary/desired/an improvement on the 1100 for digitizing? Assuming not.
For the AG7150, I could try to bargain down the price. Would an AG7150 with s-video out > my Philips VR 1100 > s-video to computer be an improvement on image quality on just using a VR 1100?

After a very quick capture test, I noticed an improved difference between my non-tbc/dnr JVC and my TBC/DNR Philips VR1100. Less color noise, and the borders seem more clean-cut. Seems it does cut off a little bit on the left hand side.

With such a quick and noticable result I think I'll be selling these, would it be useful for anyone on the marketplace here?

JVC-HRs5970 with remote
Miglia TVMax+

Looking for good recommendations, I found three in another thread. Does this still apply?

1. Ati 600 USB
2. Hauppage USB-Live 2
3. Diamond Multimedia VC500.

If ATI 600 USB as the number of an 100% desired hardware item, how close are the other two? I have a laptop, and if needed a Windows 7 desktop with PCI.

While I'm possibly ordering new (recommended) parts, I'd like to try out the GV-USB2 I have here and pinpoint where it would fail/shine. How could I test such a capture device for the sake of information gathering and perhaps sharing here, in a way that could be useful? Thanks again.

I don't think the AG7150 would look any better than the VR1100, just different (provided both are in good condition). It's a number of years older, and very big and heavy, and a broadcast machine, so it could have been something that has seen a lot of use and wear, and more likely to have issues with it.

The downside of using the PAL ES10/15 and other panasonic DVRs is that they can end up clipping bright image details. (It is possible to work around it by using a potentiometer or something else to lover the signal level of the video signal going into it a fair bit but that can be a bit clunky.) The PAL ones doesn't have the posterization issues that the NTSC ones do as far as I know. It can be useful having in any case in case any of your tapes give the TBC in the VCR you use issues.

Your observation of the differences between the JVC and philips makes sense, the TBC/DNR function straightens the image, and reduces noise, especially color noise. The sharper edges is probably due to the digital sharpening feature (3R) in the philips, people here often prefer to leave it off though. You can further adjust the image a bit in both VCRs, on the philips with the smart picture button, on the JVC in the menu (both are the same function just with different naming.) The base video IC in both are quite similar otherwise, the JVC being a bit newer.

I'm also curious about the GV-USB2, it seems to use different hardware and drivers than other commonly sold dongles. I've found one post on videohelp on it, but it only compared a capture direct from composite with a canopus avdc box (which has DV compression), so it wasn't very helpful.

Thanks a lot for the extensive answer.
To be able to compare, if I would get ATI 600 USB clone such as Elgato EyeTV Hybrid US, would that work the same way setting it up? Drivers, settings. Are there downsides to using a clone, perhaps not the full 0-255 spectrum?

VC500 has proven variable, due to apparent production changes over the years. So no idea what the card will be using, and thus is you'll get some of the reported issues like AGC.

I don't remember right now, but there's a catastrophic flaw with using the Elgato. OS, drivers? I don't remember. It's not a "clone" of the ATI 600 USB. That's one of the TI cards that I avoid.

0-255 is RGB values. VHS has 16-235 YUV. While a few cards can capture 0-255 values as YUV, most cards only capture the legal 16-235 range. It's not good for restoring dark/sub-black/blacker-than-black video, but that's also what (external) proc amp is for. ATI AIW if you want 0-255.

Would the ATI 600 USB be 0-255 YUV or 16-235 YUV? I might not need to restore blacker than black. Not sure (?). Well, deciding today on purchasing an ATI 600 USB from you, lordsmurf. Thanks for the PM's and the insights here. :D

600 USB = 16-235
Blacker-than-black is usually underexposed video. (White than white = overexposed.)

I found a DMR-E50. Would that be of any value? Looked around, not much info yet.

No, not an "E" or "EZ" model. Some of the "ES", but that's it. Wholly different chips in those lines.

I've seen people suggest the PAL E50 (not to be confused with the EH50 which is the HDD version of the ES10) can work similarly to the ES10. A user on here reported that the NTSC one was not very effective so there may be a difference in hardware between the PAL and NTSC ones.

The "E" models are from previous generations released before the ES and EH models. For the later ones the naming is such that ES indicates DVD only (or DVD/VCR combo), EH has hdd. Later ones that added digital tuner seem to be all labelled with EZ regardless of whether they a HDD, VCR, or neither.

Nice, thanks a lot for those links hodgey. Somehow couldn't find them on mobile search.

Good to know, thanks. Did you perhaps see my DMs about purchasing the ATI 600 USB? Payment has been sent.

-- merged --

I've made two test-captures on my (recommended) VR-1100, with TBC/DNR on.

Attached are two clips (80 frames) with lagarith post-capture encoding.
Questions:

- Which one is the better base to start with? One difference is visible by looking at the window, upper right.
- Does this specific test visually seem in need of a full frame TBC cleaning the signal, or does it look clean?
- Which avisynth scripts could be benefitial to this capture/source?
- This is without tweaking levels, through usb-capture (ati 600 usb is test 5, gv-usb2 is test 4)
- The goal is viewing on modern devices. I've read several older posts about wether to deinterlace or not. I have two CRT's myself for previewing. To get to a 50p image that feels similar to the 50i I get on my CRT's, what's a current suggested way to do so in 2021?

In a week I hope to get my AIW 9800 SE working, to be able to make an update to this test.
Please let me know if you see anything that sticks out to you. :)

Edit: I added two clips of the blue screen without a tape playing. One has lines, one doesn't. What makes for the difference?:unsure:

Would a JVC DR-M10 be a good passthrough option that doesn't "cook" or overblow the highlights?

JVC does not have passthrough. Most DVD recorders do not. ES10/15 was unique.

I have about 13 DVD recorders (Panasonic, JVC, Sony / Pioneer, Philips) and they can all be used by passthrough. Some give a better result than others. I can't understand why only the Panasonic ES10 / ES15 is always mentioned. The DVD recorder should also match the source. The strong jitter correction of the ES10 is not always necessary. In the post linked above, many DVD recorders and capture cards were tested and there are recorders that perform just as well as the two mentioned. At least when talking about PAL devices!! Maybe one or the other should read the posts. If necessary also via online translator.

Not speaking for anyone else but myself, but maybe the ES10/ES15 recco has more to do with it being able to perform (and pass through) *line TBC* capability as opposed to frame sync.

I think I also read that some DVD recorders actually convert to MPEG2 prior to the D/A conversion that is sent through the outputs, which would be bad. But I don't know if there is any kind of partial or exhaustive list of DVD Recorders that do that.

I know that. But there are also DVD recorders of the same quality. My Panasonic ES15, EH-65 & EH495 have the same performance.
The ES-10, for example, is a recorder without a hard disk. From the same series there are also those with hard drives that are just as good as the ES10. The previous series of the ES-10 should have the same jitter correction, only that the noise reduction does not work in passthrough mode. The Sony / Pioneers do not have that good jitter correction, but it should be sufficient for many users. But they also have the advantage that you can set the white and black level. The JVC's also have a jitter correction that doesn't quite come close to the Panasonic's. But it should also be sufficient for many tapes, but unfortunately the AGC works too slowly. Even in the passthrough mode, the analog signal is converted into a digital one and, depending on the output, back to analog including macrovision. If you pick up the digital signal, you save the analog conversion and macrovision should no longer be a problem.

Thanks for the insights Bogilein, bookemdano, and lordsmurf.

For the clips in post #15 in this thread (link), which one looks most workable/preferred to start with to you? Test 4 or 5.

Specifically for capturing of the tape test 4 and 5, which of the below devices would you advice (against)?*
- avt-8710
- A tbc-1000
- WJ-AVE5 video mixer
- Philips DVDR3475

Which positive or negative effects could be expected in this particular case? Trying to learn what to look for in those clips. There is a substantial difference between test 4 and 5. Next to that, what makes for the (absence of) lines in the additional GV and ATI clips of the VHS menu. Is that a difference in interlaced / deinterlaced or something else?

There is some difference in brightness/contrast between the clips. The ATI-600 is darker, I didn't check whether it's clipped at Y=16 (some capcute cards do) in the file or just during the rgb conversion on playback. For an very detailed judgement you would have to test it with some test patterns but from a first glance the GV doesn't seem to look any worse than the ATI. I also remember from a previous post that it seemed to have proper brightness/contrast adjustments for the input rather than just messing with the digitized signal like on many other USB dongles (which can result in banding).

As for the menu, the menu output in the JVC (and maybe others as well) is a bit non-standard. Firstly it's a 288p signal (a "trick" of sorts) to make a CRT screen draw each video field at the same spot. It's done by messing with the vertical synchronization signal, so it can confuse some capture devices that don't recognize it. It was commonly used in game consoles to avoid vertical jitter which can get quite noticeable on sharp text and computer graphics. Additionally, from what I've found the VCR will output the color signal on the brightness channel as well when in the menu, which is what causes the background to have a dot or line pattern. (I think the OSD chips technically only have one in/output so they just output the same on both channels). Different capture devices will react differently to this depending on how they filter the input.

I have an AVE5, in some ways it works as a TBC though I haven't stress tested it on a bunch of different inputs. It is pretty old and didn't seem entirely transparent, though I don't know to what extent it's due to aging components and to what extent it's down to just the old hardware in the one I have.

The AVT and Datavideo thingies are well tested, though hard to get and expensive.

The Philips one looks like one of the funai DVDRs. They use a panasonic chip and may have some stabilization built in, though from what others hare reported they are known to suffer from an overactive automatic gain control that can cause flickering.

If using a dvd-recorder note that they often put macrovision on the output if the input has it, so whatever capture device you use will need to be able to deal with that. Macrovision on the input will also cause the automatic gain control to go wild in dvd-recorders even if you can capture the output fine, especially in older models.

I would maybe look for DVD that helps correct horizontal jitter in any case, the TBC in the JVC/Philips VCR can sometimes be a bit unreliable if the tape signal is very unstable like with a camcorder tape with lots of movement.

Hm, I have an ES10 and an EH57, I've only ever seen a slight difference on an extremely bad tape with very messed up vsync area.

I've also found that all DVD-recorders I've tested will digitize the signal on passthrough (though the panasonics like to turn off the analog outputs if there is no input for whatever reason.) They will all do something, though there are some do a very shoddy job at it. I have a store-brand unit with a TVP5146 (LSI branded) and LSI chipset which seems to easily loose sync, and a Daewoo dvd/vcr recorder combo with a mediatek chipset which is absolutely dreadful and wiggly on anything from tape sources, so that's something to avoid. Both the hardware itself and how it's set up will determine how well a unit works though.

I've noted the same things with the Sony/Pioneer and JVC ones. When re-testing the JVC DR-MH300 I have it seemed to act much worse than I remembered on bad input, I tested with the s-video out this time and HDMI out last time so maybe there's a difference between the outputs on those?

Managed to get my hands on a few possible TBC options.

Did a quick test using s-video in and out. Encountered one blown capacitor on a TBC-1000. Suggestions on how to proceed?

- a Panasonic WJ-AVE5 video mixer. Passthrough works.
- a Panasonic DMR-EH49. Pass-through works.
- a Datavideo TBC-1000. Pass-through works.
After a few minutes: capacitor next to power BLEW with a loud audible pop. Images of blown capacitor, and the liquid burst on the roof of the device attached. Motherboard has no leakage, and is currently held upside down to prevent further damage. See pictures attached.

Yikes!

Looks easy enough to replace since it's through-hole design. Not sure if you have or are willing to buy a soldering iron, but I guess that would be my suggestion (unless of course you paid big bucks for the TBC-1000 and want to try to return it as defective).

If you have a multimeter you might want to measure the voltage coming from the TBC-1000's AC adapter just to make sure it's in-spec.

Soldering then. Any idea why this specific one blew, should the other big ones similar to it also be replaced preventively?
Is there a way to test if all is OK? No burn smell.

I confess to having no personal experience with the TBC-1000, so maybe LordSmurf or others who have used/serviced them can comment. But from what I remember reading, capacitors aren't a common problem. That's why I suggest making sure your AC adapter is putting out the proper voltage. In addition, you should put the TBC on a power conditioner and/or UPS to help protect it from supply voltage variations/surges.

To the best of my knowledge, there is not really a good way to test capacitors while they are wired into the circuit. You can get an ESR meter but you have to unsolder each capacitor to test it. Otherwise, you can usually see bad capacitors by looking for bulged tops like the one in your photos. I don't know if you had a chance to look at it before it blew, but if so did you notice whether the top was bulging?

In the US, mouser.com is a good source for electrical components. All the specs you need to replace that capacitor are printed on the side of it. If you're in Europe or elsewhere then I'm not sure what sources are available--maybe someone else can comment on that.

Edit: Looks like bad power supply caps are indeed an issue that can happen with these. See this thread for more info (including the link to another forum discussion about it): http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vcr-...capacitor.html

Didn't check before. Lesson learned :)
After the pop device seemed to be working still. Unplugged soon after.
I have one of those plug-in surge protectors. Would that be sufficient? I can get a UPS otherwise. Am in Europe, some local shops could help with getting the right capacitor(s)

I would get a true UPS (consider the value of the TBC-1000 alone!), but a high-quality surge protector is better than nothing.

Best of luck with the repair--the TBC-1000 is worth it! I hope you will post an update with your progress/results.

Preparing for sending the TBC-1000 into repair at a local business.

Here's some test captures of the TBC-1000 (before the cap burst). TBC was added and removed.
Adding (TBC ON): result is slightly softer image. Removing (TBC OFF): slightly sharper image.