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12-26-2020, 03:33 PM
kcamera kcamera is offline
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I've done as much homework as my brain can handle, and was hoping to get some feedback before pulling the trigger.

I'm choosing between the following TBCs for a workflow to accurately archive VHS home videos (probably SP format) onto a home file server, so I have my whole life to decide if/when/how to clean them up as time allows.

- Cypress 8120 TBC (green AVT-8710 equivalent), NTSC only, composite only
- DataVideo TBC-1000

It's a big price jump (about $500 vs $1750 at the time I'm posting this), but the composite-only capture scares me a bit. I'm trying to make a judgement call on the value of that extra $1000+ since I won't be able to see it with my own eyes. Putting the majority of the workflow spend into the TBC feels weird, but those are the options currently on the table.

I'm building the workflow now, but the capture side will be some form of recommended USB device from the marketplace here. The deck will most likely be one of the more affordable JVC options with inline TBC.

As I understand, the S-Video signal path will preserve the separation of luma and chroma as it's recorded on the VHS tape, but the luma bandwidth (i.e. "effective image resolution" in my own mind) is the same either way. Color accuracy will be better with higher chroma bandwidth, but that's where I start to get into the gray area of the actual modulation technique used by the recording device and the filtering technique of the capture device (lowpass, comb, etc.).

Does anyone have any specific advice, and or sample captures that would show what kind of artifacts I should expect from the composite-only solution? I'm sure that once the analog signal gets on the wire, the information is already compromised, but are there any digital post-processing filters (such as in an NLE or plugin) that can smooth out any of these specific side effects to at least make a novice viewer think it "looks better"? Sometimes loss of information seems more tolerable than easy to observe flaws. I can always experiment with that in the editing/encoding phase over time, to come up with something that feels more aesthetically pleasing, even if it's technically deviating from the source footage.

I am really bad at making judgement calls like this, when the tradeoff isn't dead obvious. Thanks for your help!
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  #2  
12-26-2020, 04:00 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Buy a good S-VHS VCR with line TBC and S-Video out and a good capture card, see if LS still has some VCR's and capture cards. Start capturing, if the need arises for a frame TBC then so be it, You don't have to buy the whole thing at once.
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12-26-2020, 06:36 PM
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Some sort of frame TBC is required, it's not optional, not something you can "see if you need it later". Line TBC cleans the image, frame TBC cleans the signal. You need both. Without some form of frame sync TBC, yoiu will drop frames, you will lose audio sync. VHS is a chaotic violent video format, and these are the non-optional tools needed to capture it without flaws and problems. Trying to capture without it will just lead to wasted time, and reduced quality on those captures (as frame TBC is just mostly signal correction, it does have some visual corrections).

Composite is often seen as a blurry soft connection type by many, but that is actually mostly determined by the devices compositing the signal. The composite Cypress has excellent internal comb filtering, so the output is better than whatever was input. However, the output is re-composited, and it is still a step down from s-video quality -- just not as bad as some would think. This unit isn't without quirks and caveats, which is why the price is much less than other TBCs. It has proc amp, so it can somewhat offset color accuracy.

"effective image resolution", as you understand it, is correct.

The biggest issues with composite is dot crawl. There are some filter methods to hide it (Avisynth, not NLEs like Premiere), somewhat, but not remove it. The degree of dot crawl varies, and again comes down to the devices as the root cause. This specific composite-only Cypress will be more minimal than normal, but never 100% gone, a limitation of composite.

If you can swing the funds for the TBC-1000, you won't regret it, just go for it.

You may, however, regret shortcuts (ie, the quality hits incurred) from budget gear later on. Budget gear is generally suggested for those that simply cannot ever afford a quality TBC, and yet still want good results. It's better than no TBCs, using low-end VCRs. This will be their one best attempt at the project. Also sometimes for the truly cheap or stubborn. It's far easier to buy/use/resell the s-video TBC, than try to recapture everything later because you're not happy with the budget gear results.

TBC has always been the costliest item in the workflow. At best, on par with VCR costs, if the VCR was a bit steep. Capture cards have always been inexpensive by comparison. So it only "feels weird" because you're not used to it.

Realize that I've never liked the costs of TBCs either, and balked at it myself back in the 90s. I was stubborn at first, seeking cheaper options, but quickly adopted both VCRs with line TBC and external frame TBCs after realizing it resolved most of my issues and complaints. I don't like to spend money, and that's why I buy store-brand food at the grocery store, use coupons, wait for sales. But TBC is a required item, so we do what must be done. DIY video is a hobby, and all hobbies have costs. Video is probably the cheapest hobby I have, compared to photography, action figures, and some others -- even after having bought multiple TBCs and VCRs and capture cards!

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