Quantcast VHS and Hi8 workflow, missing pieces? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
01-31-2021, 12:11 PM
sinul sinul is offline
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Hi,

Background/History:
A couple of years ago I tried to digitalise my familys old analog tapes. These were stored on vhs and Hi8. Back then I just took the very easy route: the old Hi8-Camera (can not remember model) and a SVHS player, both connected to a cheap usb-capture card and captured to a lossy format. Neither the Hi8 or SVHS player had any form of TBC or DNR. The end result was as you might imagine not the best.

Now I am considering giving this a new attempt but I am a bit unsure on how I should proceed.

When it comes to Hi8, I have been able to get my hands on Sony Di8 camera DCR-TRV320E and my initial thought was that I should just get myself a firewire card and let the camera output the Hi8 tapes as DV over firewire, but after some reading, I think this perhaps might not be the way to go? I should let "something else" take care of the digital conversion?

For VHS I am still in the lookout for good SVHS player, and I have had a look at the buying guide so I will hopefully be able to get a JVC of some sort

I have been able to get a Panasonic DMR-ES10 for frame TBC, not sure how much that will be of use for these home recordings?

So, let's say I am able to get a SVHS that does line TBC. What would be a recommended way to do the capturing?

One thought I had was to let the Panasonic take care of converting it to a digital signal and use some sort of HDMI capture card, if so what card would be recommended? Would this be considered a viable way to get a decent lossless output in the end?
Di8-Camera/SVHS -> S-video -> Panasonic DMR-ES10 -> HDMI -> HDMI capture card

Another option is to go the old trusted way with s-video from the Panasonic to a capture card, but what cards are still available in this field? The ATI AIW and even the 600 USB seems to more and more disappear from the market.
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  #2  
01-31-2021, 01:35 PM
sinul sinul is offline
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When I called the Panasonic a "Frame TBC" I meant that in the widest definition possible poor mans TBC is perhaps a better name.
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  #3  
01-31-2021, 01:48 PM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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The ES10 does not have HDMI, you need a later model + a HDMI splitter in that setup.
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  #4  
01-31-2021, 01:57 PM
sinul sinul is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post
The ES10 does not have HDMI, you need a later model + a HDMI splitter in that setup.
Ah, thanks! It has not arrived yet, so it was just a thought that popped up in my head this night. Then I guess it perhaps is better to try to find an ATI 600 USB or similar, to keep the number of devices in the chain to a minimum
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  #5  
02-01-2021, 08:19 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Do not use an HD card for SD capture. That will also make a mess.

Because it needs to be said: ES10 is a not a TBC, or TBC replacement. It is half of a TBC(ish), and has a fail rate. ES10/15 alone is may work, but not as likely. ES10/15+DVK is the TBC(ish).

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  #6  
02-18-2021, 04:08 PM
sinul sinul is offline
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Ok, so I'm back planning again. I now have some more components at hand but I am still trying to puzzle the pieces together to get a good chain.

Playback sources I do have:
Sony DCR-TRV320E (source for Hi8)
Panasonic NV-FS200 (source for s-vhs, vhs, vhs-c)
Afaik, both these sources can do line tbc in one way or another

Then the passthrough processing parts i now have:
Panasonic DMR-ES10
Datavideo DVK-100

I am still missing a capture card, I see that you @lordsmurf are selling some, but I just want to make sure that there aren't any available here in Europe.

Now my questions are:
Should I use the tbc in my playback devices? Or should I disable tbc in them when paired with the es10/dvk combo? If I understand correctly, using two line tbc:s after each other will only be redundant or even damaging to the video, and in this case both the playback devices and the es10 does some sort of line tbc? Or would it be better to connect the playback devices directly to the dvk-100, with the playback devices tbc on?

Lots of questions, sorry about that.

Thanks!
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  #7  
02-19-2021, 03:04 AM
sinul sinul is offline
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So, I consider the attached drawings my different options, and would be glad to get any feedback on these. Which would you recommend?

I'm still not sure what I should consider the ES10 to be, it is not a TBC, but still somewhat a TBC, which does line (vertical) operations on the frames (so visual improvments)? or does it do frame (horizontal) corrections (so signal improvments) which are "good enough" for the DVK-100 to accept it and then a frame TBCish in the DVK-100 does the final touches?


Attached Images
File Type: jpg tbc_options_all_on.jpg (21.8 KB, 3 downloads)
File Type: jpg tbc_options_source_off.jpg (21.8 KB, 4 downloads)
File Type: jpg tbc_options_dvd_off.jpg (21.8 KB, 2 downloads)
File Type: jpg tbc_options_bypass_dvd.jpg (21.6 KB, 2 downloads)
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  #8  
02-19-2021, 07:26 AM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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Whether or not you consider it a tbc kind of depends what you put into the term tbc. They both digitize the analog input video into digital component form, do any extra processing/overlay etc, and createa a new stable analog output signal with new synchronization signals. As it's a consumer device the ES10 will however re-create a macrovision signal if it detects one on the input side, and the automatic gain control in it will get confused by the macrovision signal and mess with the brightness of the image. Additionally, this and other panasonic DVRs turns off the analog output if they don't detect an input signal for a few seconds for whatever reason. Usually that's not a huge issue, but if there is ta tape section where there is a blank signal recorded (i.e recorded from a vcr input with nothing connected) it can make the dvr think there is no signal. The DVK presumably also digitizes and recreates analog, but presumably it doesn't re-create macrovision and can ensure there is always a video signal present for the capture card.

The standalone tbc units work similarly, but I think the automatic gain control in the video decoder chips in tbcs like the AVT-8710 and TBC-1000 are disabled or not present. Those will also not re-create any macrovision (those also lack the more advanced horizontal jitter reduction the ES10 has.)

You pretty much always want to use the camcorder with TBC on, as the TBC in these are excellent. It's possible you can get away with skipping the ES10 in the chain for 8mm video capture, but ymmv.

For the VCR you will have to see depending on the tape, normally the in-vcr tbc should do the job to correct jitter, but in some cases with bad tapes it may work better with turning the TBC off and letting the ES10 correct jitter instead, the TBC in the VCR isn't as sophisticated as the one in the Hi8 camcorder. You will want to use the ES10 in any case here.

Note that the PAL ES10 likes to clip bright spots. One way to work around this is to reduce the video level going into it. For S-Video I've done this in the past by using a scart input, and connect the composite port on the scart input adapter to a volume control or potentiometer with phono inputs, this would let you fine-tune it to prevent clipping, but not make it so low that the es10 has trouble reading the signal. It can be a bit clunky tho. You can also reduce it a little by simply connecting a composite cable between that composite input and a composite input on the dvr or something else but that does may not lower the level enough to avoid clipping.
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  #9  
02-19-2021, 11:45 AM
sinul sinul is offline
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Thanks for that great reply, very informative! I realize that there is no configuration that is perfect for all situations, but now I have a much better understanding on how to tackle eventual issues.

Tack från broderlandet i öst!
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