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02-02-2021, 01:06 PM
Cortez Cortez is offline
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Dear members,

i am looking for a decent miniDV device for capturing.
I have a miniDV VCR combo (JVC SR-VS20 / HR-DVS2). After one year the miniDV player had no sound and the video was also messed up. I adjusted it and worked perfectly again until the next day when there were no signal (no sound and blue screen). Later it also ate the tape. Everything happened just like you told me. Anyway i will send it to a service to try repair it and restore it's condition as much as possible. I won't use the miniDV for sure. If the reparation will be successful at least i can sell it as perfectly working device in the future, if not then i require to isolate it not to disturb the VCR playback.

So now i am looking for a decent miniDV player. I find a lot of threads here about that and everytime you suggest a camcorder (camcorder = camera?). These cameras are the best for the job? Maybe other desktop desk's miniDV players (different brand or type) are better than mines? I don't know what kind of devices can playback miniDV cassetts? Only these two? It is totally irrelevant for me if in the front of me there is a camera or a desktop deck.

I learned here that miniDV is not actually a "digitization" just a simple transfer because the data on the miniDV tape is already digital, right? The most popular media was VHS cassetts in my country. Only rich people had camcorders. My main target is the VHS tapes but my friend and others have miniDV tapes also so i included them in the scope. The dedicated PC has a PCI-e firewire card. I hope it will fine for that. I actually could buy that one only newly.

LordSmurf suggested to me the Canon's ZR or Elura series before. I couldn't find any of them inland (only battery chargers). Only Canon cameras are suggested? I found a lot of them on eBay actually. Also found a Canon DM-XM2 3CCD in inland second hand store. The description says it has TBC and good for digitizing. Like an advertising dedicated to me with the magic words i am looking for. Does TBC counts here or it can be used for the analog outputs?

Canon_DM_XM2_3CCD_Minidv_Videokamera__801691829634379.jpg

I found this thread: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...mera-3ccd.html

LordSmurf said that the cameras with 3 CCDs is not surely better than cameras with only single CCD like Canon ZR series. My concern is that the Canon DM-XM2 3CCD camera is actually from inland second hand stock and cheaper than i buy a Canon ZR from eBay. Also look at it, it's huge, massive and badass camera and the ZR is just an ordinary camera. I expect that the bigger camera has more parts, some of them make better quality and actually better than smaller ones. This analogy is working at VCRs. My TBC capable VCR is bigger in every dimension than my old family VCR. It needs space to place the circuit boards. But we know that size not always matter.

So my question is that i should choose the Canon DM-XM2 3CCD if the price is the same as any Canon ZR or Elura on eBay or i should stick to these ZR or Elura series?
Maybe there are other brands and types out there i can work with?

Another question: The cameras are designed to be mobile with batteries. If the battery died i can still use the camera with the charger plugged in on my desktop? I don't wanna go anywhere with it and making footages just put the cassette in and transferring.

As always the quality is my number one priority.

Thank you for the help


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  #2  
02-02-2021, 01:15 PM
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Those JVC combo DV decks are flawed, eat tapes more than anything else, never work well.

Get a good camera for MiniDV playback, I have a Canon camera that I got new, and it has never recorded 1 sec on video. It's always been used stricly for DV playback.

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  #3  
02-02-2021, 01:58 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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If you use it for just capturing, CCD count doesn't matter, Any camcorder that is in good working condition can get those 0's and 1's from the tape and out to a firewire port.

But if you really want a good DV device then the Sony HVR-M15AU is the piece of gear you want to have, They use to go for like $100 on eBay few years ago when I bought mine but now they are getting more expensive. That model can playback and record DVCAM/miniDVCAM/DV/miniDV/HDV/miniHDV in NTSC and PAL standards, It can playback and record in 1080/720 60i/30p/24p/50i/25p.
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  #4  
02-02-2021, 02:16 PM
bookemdano bookemdano is offline
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A few years ago I got a nice Canon miniDV camcorder in like-new condition with a nonfunctional CCD (just got a black image when recording) for $5! The playback on it worked fine and its firewire port had obviously never been used.

So you may want to search Ebay's "For Parts or not working" category. A lot of people avoid those listings (understandably so), but in this case seeking out a camera that can't function as a camera worked out very well for the purposes of using it to transfer my miniDV tapes.
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  #5  
02-03-2021, 07:14 AM
Cortez Cortez is offline
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latreche34
I checked the Sony HVR-M15AU. Now it's value is 10 times of yours. Now they are around $1000 on eBay. If i see the capability it surely worth its value. It supports a lot of format (cassette types?) and if i want to buy them separately it would cost the same price at the end. Actually i don't want to support that many formats now only VHS and miniDV.

bookemdano
I also affraid "For Parts or not working". If the seller doesn't describe precisely what is the problem, maybe the playback won't work either. In that case my complains would be also irrational. I also agree that the operation is very simple: playback the footage from the cassette and send out the digital signal through firewire.

So there are no other brand mentioned besides Canon so i stick to that. I suppose there is no need correction of the digital signal by any other devices or circuit boards. So the cheaper cameras are as good as the expensive ones? The price difference is noticeable at the capturing by the camera? An expensive camera can make better quality footages than the cheaper ones but they playback the footage in the same quality? The end result's quality on the desktop PC depends on the source's quality? So if somebody recorded the footage with a better camera, the quality will be also better? Does that make sense or i am totally wrong?

Ok so for example let see this camera:
Canon-Elura-40

$150 + $25 shipping (+ additional costs like customs or TAX from the US).

The camera in the first is also $150 and it has some shipping cost but i can also buy it personally, test it right there and carefully bring it home not to damage on the way. I know i won't use its capture capability just the playback function and i don't want to insist to all cost to this camera. But it has the same price, it has the playback functionality the only functionality that i need and i can buy it easly from a more reliable source because i can test it out. I don't think the cameras from eBay will last longer. I will still browse the eBay for a cheaper Canon camera.

Only charger cable is needed for keep it operationable? I have firewire cable at home. With a dead battery i can still use the camera to playback the cassette while the charger is plugged in? It's not a simple AA battery that i can buy at any shop.
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  #6  
02-03-2021, 09:10 AM
bookemdano bookemdano is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez View Post
bookemdano
I also affraid "For Parts or not working". If the seller doesn't describe precisely what is the problem, maybe the playback won't work either. In that case my complains would be also irrational. I also agree that the operation is very simple: playback the footage from the cassette and send out the digital signal through firewire.
Yes I would stay away from listings where the seller does not specify what is wrong (or you could also send them a message and ask what testing they have done). In my case, the seller of the Canon had disclosed in the listing that the CCD didn't work but that playback worked. So I had some confidence that it would work for transfer. But then again I am in the US where it is easy and cheap to ship junk around. I understand you may want to be more careful since you may have higher shipping/import costs.

Quote:
So there are no other brand mentioned besides Canon so i stick to that. I suppose there is no need correction of the digital signal by any other devices or circuit boards. So the cheaper cameras are as good as the expensive ones? The price difference is noticeable at the capturing by the camera? An expensive camera can make better quality footages than the cheaper ones but they playback the footage in the same quality? The end result's quality on the desktop PC depends on the source's quality? So if somebody recorded the footage with a better camera, the quality will be also better? Does that make sense or i am totally wrong?

Ok so for example let see this camera:
Canon-Elura-40

$150 + $25 shipping (+ additional costs like customs or TAX from the US).

The camera in the first is also $150 and it has some shipping cost but i can also buy it personally, test it right there and carefully bring it home not to damage on the way. I know i won't use its capture capability just the playback function and i don't want to insist to all cost to this camera. But it has the same price, it has the playback functionality the only functionality that i need and i can buy it easly from a more reliable source because i can test it out. I don't think the cameras from eBay will last longer. I will still browse the eBay for a cheaper Canon camera.

Only charger cable is needed for keep it operationable? I have firewire cable at home. With a dead battery i can still use the camera to playback the cassette while the charger is plugged in? It's not a simple AA battery that i can buy at any shop.
I hope some more knowledgeable people will answer your questions but here is my take...

I don't think camera brand matters a whole lot with miniDV--especially just for the purposes of copying the 1s and 0s off the tape into your computer. Canon's stuff is generally pretty good, but my first miniDV camcorder was a Panasonic and it worked fine too. If you were wanting a camcorder to shoot video then brand probably matters more, because then things like CCD and lens quality come into play, plus features like zoom range, stereo audio, etc.

But for transferring, you just need a working firewire output and stable tape transport. Most any camcorder in working condition should provide that. You don't need any extra features or technologies. Think of it like copying a floppy disk--any floppy drive in working order will get the 1s and 0s off the disk.

I think you are wise to look for something you can buy locally.

Every camcorder I have used can operate just fine off the AC adapter without a battery. Camcorders are designed this way because they knew that most/many owners would connect the camcorder to the TV to playback tapes for long periods of time. So if an AC adapter is included you should not need to worry about the battery. BUT, hopefully someone who has used dozens/hundreds of camcorders can respond with more confidence. I have only used about 10 different camcorders over the years and all of them could be powered fully from the mains.
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  #7  
02-03-2021, 11:56 AM
BW37 BW37 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cortez View Post
Also found a Canon DM-XM2 3CCD in inland second hand store. The description says it has TBC and good for digitizing.

So my question is that i should choose the Canon DM-XM2 3CCD if the price is the same as any Canon ZR or Elura on eBay or i should stick to these ZR or Elura series?

Thank you for the help
If you can hold the Canon DM-XM2 in your hands, test its functions and confirm that it's in good condition and works for tape playback through it's fireware port, AND it costs no more than an eBay Canon ZR, I'd buy it.

What lordsmurf is saying is that you should not spend extra money on a fancy 3CCD camcorder for use as a capture playback device.

My personal experience buying multiple Mini-DV camcorders on eBay (all Canon, all NTSC) has been mixed. One I got worked perfectly for a short while and then it literally burned up inside with smoke, nasty smells and all. As bookemdano suggested, I once bought a cheap Elura 40-MC with known bad camera that worked fine for playback for quite a while but then started to eject the tapes when loaded (a known problem for Elura 40's and 50's). I also have an Optima 600 with a busted firewire port. It shoots nice video (good sensor and lens for a consumer unit) but it's useless for playback through it's firewire port. Luckily, it has the rare capability to playback DV data through it's USB port, but only with it's special WinXP only driver. I now have a working Elura 85 that I hope will last long enough to at least get through my personal tapes.

I would say that the "top load" Canon Elura and Optima (horizontal format) models would be my preference to the "side load" (vertical format) models just because loading and unloading the tape is easier. I'd also avoid bottom load models (if there are any) for the same reason.

I know nothing about Sony or Panasonic mini-DV camcorders but they should work too if they are in good condition. Just like VCR's, condition is probably the most important issue.

Just my

BW
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  #8  
02-03-2021, 12:04 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Again, If you are not willing to shoot DV from the camera get the cheapest camcorder you can, The camera that recorded the tapes is the camera that determines the quality, once it's recorded on tape it becomes 0's and 1's and any low end DV camcorder can extract those bits with no effort, the same for D8, Not the case for analog tapes playback though.
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  #9  
02-03-2021, 04:06 PM
BW37 BW37 is offline
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I just checked the manual for Canon DM-XM2 E (PAL).

There is no TBC and I can't see where there could be as it can't play an analog tape. The closest it would come would be to use it as a capture device by converting analog to DV, which is can do (as can many other miniDV camcorders). This is generally frowned upon vs. good lossless capture (as with your AIW PC system). But apparently, PAL DV "capture" is more acceptable than NTSC.

But the description stating it has a TBC is false (per the manual). That might be reason for concern about the seller. Or maybe they are just ignorant or misinformed. Other analog to DV converters were apparently advertised as having a TBC (Canopus AVDC??).

Still, if you can actually put your hands on it and test it and it works AND it's cheaper or equal price to what you can get elsewhere, I don't see why it wouldn't be a good choice.

BW
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  #10  
02-03-2021, 08:15 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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The XM2 is a nice camcorder, corresponds to the GL2 in the USA, and is overkill for just transfer work.

A working Mini-DV camera should be ok for transferring data from MiniDV tapes via firewire. As noted above the 3CCD is mainly a benefit for shooting, but might signify a higher end camcorder that might (or might not) have better analog output if you are using that. Be sure to keep an eye for the PAL vs NTSC especially if dealing with foreign sources. Also be aware that some camcorders had sensitive firewire ports that could get zapped by careless connecting, something to watch out for with used gear.

FWIW: Canon (and others) produced dual format camcorders that did both MiniDV and HDV on MiniDV size tape. They would give additional capability if you are looking at doing this as a service. The Canon VIXA series is an example (at least in the USA).

Sony produced some MiniDV Walkman which are also an option, but generally much more expensive than used camcorders.
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  #11  
02-04-2021, 03:29 AM
Cortez Cortez is offline
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The NTSC / PAL incompatibility can cause any trouble? I mean if i mistakenly buy an NTSC camcorder (maybe the seller don't know about it either) i cannot transfer the cassettes recorded by a PAL camcorder?

I looked around on the second hand stores inland and found even cheaper camcorders around $38. Also found a broken one as bookemdano mentioned his luck, but the camcorder i found has cassette mechanic problem unfortunately.

Also found a lot of Hi8 camcorders for sale. Actually i cannot distinguish Hi8 cameras from miniDV just by looking at it. I have to ask my friend what cassette format does he have. They had multiple cameras and i would like to capturing the most of them.

The seller who has the XM2 has a lot of cameras also.

Minidv_videokamerak_bevizsgalt_allapotban__597991711998598.jpg

There are also VCR's so the guy offers devices for video digitalization.
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They are all tested as the description says. Now i can surely find one from these. Maybe i can find a second VCR with TBC and i can buy both with one travel.

So are there any incompability at miniDV with NTSC and PAL?


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  #12  
02-04-2021, 03:45 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Yes there is PAL DV and NTSC DV, The resolution and chroma subsampling are different.
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  #13  
02-04-2021, 03:46 AM
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PAL for PAL, NTSC for NTSC.

- Almost all DV cameras in Europe are PAL.
- Almost all DV cameras in North America are NTSC.

I really like ZR series cameras, easily one of the best models for recording and playback in the 2000s. But I use my free contest-won (nice prize!) new Elura far more for playback (and ONLY playback, never recording even 1s on it).

What are the model numbers of those VCRs?

@BW37, a misinformed/ignorant seller (on eBay?), color me shocked! (Ha!) Sometimes these sellers are so dumb that I'd be equally non-shocked to hear a DV camera referred to as a VHS camera. They just use terms without knowing what those means. The new lingo is "refurbished" (these SOBs have to me watching my marketplace listings, am I right?), and yet the image of the deck shows something that looks like it was just pulled out of a box of mothballs after a decade or two. GTFO with that nonsense.

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  #14  
02-04-2021, 04:17 AM
Cortez Cortez is offline
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I asked NTSC/PAL because one of the seller said that his camcorder using NTSC (maybe an imported device) but he can watch the playbacks via firewire.

LordSmurf,
one of the device is "Panasonic NV-HS950 S-VHS (TBC)". It was in the caption so i can easly identify it but the others will be harder. Maybe i will ask a list from the seller about the possible devices. He also offer technical support and devices those who wants to digitalize his own cassettes. Maybe the procedure is not the best one but the devices could be fine.

Digitalizalashoz_technikai_tamogatas__461871683067992.jpg

After so much discussions i don't think this is THE digitalization devices and procedure. Maybe he is right. Anyway i have the dedicated PC with the dongle to plug in analog RCA and S-Video, also a FireWire card. I only need the player for the different cassette formats. I think the fastest way is to ask a list about the cameras and the VCRs and you can suggest me one - one.

Back to miniDV NTSC / PAL for a moment. There is no difference between cassettes like "miniDV cassette for NTSC cameras", right? Only the camera's configuration or maybe some parts will determines the standard? So the only difference is how the 0 and 1 are written on the tape?


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02-04-2021, 06:32 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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PAL and NTSC are different signal formats. For starters PAL is 25 frames per second, NTSC color is 29.97 frames per second. Second, the number of lines in a video frames is different (576 vs 480). And as noted above the color information encoding is different. Converting between the formats is not trivial

A few camcorders and VCRs may have had the capability to play both PAL and NTSC recordings, but most did not.

Most camcorders and VCRs will list the format(s) they support on a label. although it may be in fine printout of sight. You can find it in the owners manual, or look up the model number on the WEB to find the specifications if the manual is not available.

FIREWIRE (really IEEE1394) is a data transfer protocol that can be used to transfer NTSC and PAL information. It is the sending and receiving equipment (VCR, Camcorder, PC, etc.) that must understand PAL or NTSC.

The MiniDV cassettes for NTSC and PAL are physically the same, the signal recorded on the tapes is different. The camcorder electronics determine that.

MiniDV camcorders can be a bit smaller then Vidoe8/Hi8 because the cassette is smaller. (There is a legacy format called Digital8 that recorded a DV format signal on Video8/Hi8 cassettes. They cannot use MiniDV tapes.)
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02-05-2021, 11:26 AM
BW37 BW37 is offline
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Cortez,

Just a clarification regarding the PAL vs. NTSC issue. Like Panasonic with their VCR's, Canon seems to have used entirely different naming systems for their NTSC vs PAL camcorders. So where their NTSC models were named Elura, Optura (not Optima as I said earlier - that's a car model ) and ZR, their equivalent PAL models had entirely different designations. I could not find a cross reference table for this.

These model name difference will make any specific model recommendations from those of us on the west side of "the pond" pretty useless...

Buying local will probably make this a non-issue, but just make sure you understand what you need and get the right type of playback device.

BW
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