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  #41  
03-11-2021, 02:44 AM
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I don't recall what the PAL limitation is. It may actually be 768x576, another 4x3. So above D1. Still not compliant to anything.

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  #42  
03-11-2021, 07:08 AM
timtape timtape is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bookemdano View Post

Also, don't fret that you're not doing a lossless capture. That way involves a ton more time, money and expertise. And quite honestly, diminishing returns is a big factor. Doing it the way you're doing it is getting you 80-90%. Even the best capture methods and filtering can't overcome the inherent low resolution of VHS tape. Yes, there are ways to make it a *bit* better, but fundamentally it's still crappy old VHS--nothing will change that.
I agree mostly. It's true that the lossy format will have less fidelity/quality than the lossless is capable of. But that's the correct comparison: with the lossless format. It does not mean that the lossy format will automatically degrade the quality of the source video. It may do, it may not.
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  #43  
03-11-2021, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by timtape View Post
I agree mostly. It's true that the lossy format will have less fidelity/quality than the lossless is capable of. But that's the correct comparison: with the lossless format. It does not mean that the lossy format will automatically degrade the quality of the source video.
Half the chroma data is dumped/lost, math, that cannot be argued. But...

Quote:
It may do, it may not.
The degree upon which it is noticed or tolerated depends on factors.

Not some wrong idea of "personal choice", but rather one of viewer device, viewing size, user eyesight, and source quality. (But noting that bad source quality makes it more noticeable, not less.) The loss is there, always, but you can crippled your own ability to see it.

If I take out my contacts, and watch on Youtube on my 13" HD tablet, I doubt even I'd notice loss.

But get my contacts in, large 55"+ HDTV set, SMPTE distance (10'), quality source tapes (or not quality), I'll notice right away. DV colors are cooked. There's a certain noise pattern in color, and contrast value, that betrays it, always. Most people just know something is off, but I can spot it pretty quickly.

Sp again, I'm not anti-DV. It's not great, and is 1990s tech that wasn't even intended for conversion. But H264 is arguably worse on capture. All codecs have drawbacks, and lossless is obviously one of size and viewing, as tradeoff for best quality.

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  #44  
03-11-2021, 08:04 AM
DetroitPaula DetroitPaula is offline
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Thanks for the replies.

I am in a bit of a tough place. I am quite good at some aspects of this whole project and quite clueless at other parts. One clueless part is making forward decisions that are the best for me with my current route. I am trying to keep up with all the acronyms!

Ok so a refresh on goals
1. Digitalize approximately 47 VHS tapes, 45 Video-8 tapes, 16 Hi8 tapes, 20 Hi8D tapes.
2. Use the following equipment JVC SR-MV45, For.A FA-125 TBC, ADVC-300, 2 Digital Video Camera Recorders Sony DCR-TRV240 and DCR-TRV340 (I have two from my past and going to go with the one that works though I have tried neither yet due to the focus on the VHS tapes) and my old Mac Pro (Late 2013) 3.5 GHz 6-Core Intel Xeon E5, Memory 64 GB and 1TB of storage.
3. Capture the above tapes with the above equipment the best I can as an amateur family photo/video historian and a retired oncology nurse.
4. The original capture will be on the external 12 TB hard drive in an iMovie library (I have another one whereby I might put VHS work on one and the Digital Tapes on the other)
5. The original capture will stay as is in the movie library with a labeling system that will be foolproof and wonderfully organized for me
6. I then plan to break down original capture into 10 to 20 minute movies based on interesting segments.
7. Then I want to move the original capture to another external hard drive with my interesting movies made from it in one file so that I will have the original with the segments made from that original keeping it all straight
8. I am doing the segments because no one in my family will sit thru droning movies, I think if I keep them short and interesting with great informative titles they will watch them. My family is a mixed family all over the place from India to Seattle to Texas to Michigan so I am using a YouTube family playlist for sharing purposes. Anyone can watch at anytime.

So here is question for today:

Right now I am attempting to move an original capture from last night to the other external hard drive --not those mini movies I am going to make yet --the original capture.

What exactly is this original capture?
A ready made movie or a bunch of data?
I was wondering if it is a bunch of data do you just copy and paste?
If you can't copy and paste that bunch of data do you take the whole original capture and use the share feature in iMovie which essentially makes it into a movie file. Is that new movie file now have more loss?
Also when I take that original capture and use the share feature it is asking me what resolution do I want to share with and my choices are 540p or 720p?
Which one do I pick and why?

The Digital 8 stuff will be easier right?
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  #45  
03-11-2021, 08:44 AM
bookemdano bookemdano is offline
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Your original captures are inside the container file called "iMovie Library" (or whatever you named it) on the external drive. If you go to that file using Finder, right click it and choose "Show Package Contents", you should be able to drill down a couple of levels into the Event -> Original Media folder.

But I really do not recommend trying to do that. What I would do is dedicate that 12TB drive to *all* of your masters (and maybe use the other 12TB drive to create regular backups, so if the first 12TB drive dies (it can happen suddenly) you haven't lost all your hard work. Once you edit, chop and reassemble the movies into the final product you will upload to YouTube, you can use iMovie to export that finished file as a h264 file and archive that file to the 8TB drive (or wherever you want to put it).

For better or worse, that's just how iMovie was designed. It wasn't really meant for end users to move original clips around. It wants to keep them inside its library file. While you can manually go in and copy the files out of the "Original Media" folders using the trick I explained above, it's not the intended workflow.

Oh, and due to the method you're using, the D8 stuff will be much the same process (from the Mac side anyway). But rather than one 2+ hour file, each segment recorded on the tape will end up as a separate file.
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  #46  
03-12-2021, 08:26 AM
timtape timtape is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Half the chroma data is dumped/lost, math, that cannot be argued. But...


The degree upon which it is noticed or tolerated depends on factors.

Not some wrong idea of "personal choice", but rather one of viewer device, viewing size, user eyesight, and source quality. (But noting that bad source quality makes it more noticeable, not less.) The loss is there, always, but you can crippled your own ability to see it.

If I take out my contacts, and watch on Youtube on my 13" HD tablet, I doubt even I'd notice loss.

But get my contacts in, large 55"+ HDTV set, SMPTE distance (10'), quality source tapes (or not quality), I'll notice right away. DV colors are cooked. There's a certain noise pattern in color, and contrast value, that betrays it, always. Most people just know something is off, but I can spot it pretty quickly.

Sp again, I'm not anti-DV. It's not great, and is 1990s tech that wasn't even intended for conversion. But H264 is arguably worse on capture. All codecs have drawbacks, and lossless is obviously one of size and viewing, as tradeoff for best quality.
I'm not that familiar with this website and of other resources. Could you refer to some files please so the lossy degradation can be viewed ? The same for the improvement of a VHS recorded picture when played back on a SVHS deck? I'm from Australia and have only used DV PAL so the visual difference in degradation between DV PAL and DV NTSC would also be instructive. Thanks.
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  #47  
05-06-2021, 08:51 AM
DetroitPaula DetroitPaula is offline
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Good Morning,

I am using this old thread because I didn't want to repeat my story and bore everyone. In other words I am talking to the people that already know I am not an expert but a person that wants above average quality. And yes I am using a Mac and trying not to fret that all of this is less than perfect.

I had to take a bit of a reprieve from the project and then I came back with a vengeance setting goals.

So I hit 1991 with the VHS tapes and I was doing well with a good flow but decided heck I am going to start planning out the Video8 (45 of those) Hi8 (16 of those) and the Hi8D (20 of those) when I realized the dates on the digital tapes are the same as the VHS ones and I thought what is going on here.

My memory has completely failed me. Is it possible I started recording on the Handycam in 1991 and then made copies on VHS? Can't be the other way around right? I can't even believe that I am now discovering this issue.

So real dumb question here. What is the most likely scenario here? I started up with the Handicam and then I copied to VHS? Why do you think I started doing the VHS thing? To make tapes others could play?

Honest to Pete this is the craziest thing because I now need to change the whole work flow.

And now I need help again if this is the case.

I have two Handycams SONY DCR-TRV240 NTSC and the SONY DCR-TRV340 NTSC. I am going to determine which one is in best shape.

Do I use the S video cable thru the ADVC-300 thru thunderbolt to my Mac? Do I use the TBC?
I tried a bunch of dongles, like the Firewire 4 pin to the Firewire 9 pin to the thunderbolt adaptor and my first run thru was NOT good. I just did it quickly to check out on my MacPro laptop because I didn't want to disturb the VHS set up for now.

So if anyone in this original group or anyone else reading about this DetroitPaula saga has thoughts on what I may have done 32 years ago with these tapes I am all here for it. And most of all I need help moving forward.

If lordsmurf thinks I should move conversation elsewhere I will but I just don't know where. After all it has been more than 55 days and I had to check the YELLOW EXCLAMATION POINT BOX!


Thank you!
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  #48  
05-06-2021, 09:23 AM
bookemdano bookemdano is offline
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Hi Paula,

Well, D8 as a format didn't exist prior to 1998/99, so if you have footage on D8 that's older than that then you can be pretty sure it originated on an analog tape and was transferred to D8 at some point.

You're sure that it's the D8 tapes that have the duplicate footage with the VHS? I say that because Hi8 and Video8 definitely existed in the early 90s, and it was quite common to dump off that footage to VHS tapes so they'd be easier to play/lend since everyone had a VHS VCR plugged in and ready to go.

Do you remember if you had a VHS camcorder? Full-size VHS camcorders were definitely a thing, but they were large (usually balanced on your shoulder). As time wore on most people opted for the smaller 8mm or VHS-C formats.

Anyway, it should be possible through some deduction to figure out which tapes are your masters, and indeed it is worth figuring that out because you'll get the best quality transferring those as opposed to copies.
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  #49  
05-06-2021, 09:31 AM
DetroitPaula DetroitPaula is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bookemdano View Post
Hi Paula,

Well, D8 as a format didn't exist prior to 1998/99, so if you have footage on D8 that's older than that then you can be pretty sure it originated on an analog tape and was transferred to D8 at some point.

You're sure that it's the D8 tapes that have the duplicate footage with the VHS? I say that because Hi8 and Video8 definitely existed in the early 90s, and it was quite common to dump off that footage to VHS tapes so they'd be easier to play/lend since everyone had a VHS VCR plugged in and ready to go.

Do you remember if you had a VHS camcorder? Full-size VHS camcorders were definitely a thing, but they were large (usually balanced on your shoulder). As time wore on most people opted for the smaller 8mm or VHS-C formats.

Anyway, it should be possible through some deduction to figure out which tapes are your masters, and indeed it is worth figuring that out because you'll get the best quality transferring those as opposed to copies.
So just looking at my dates you are correct the plain Video-8 tapes (45 of them) are dated 1991 followed by some Hi 8s and then the Hi8D.

I am now thinking yes we started that HandyCam and transferred to VHS. My older husband is useless here in helping me haha.

So lesson to all do a proper tape inventory.

Now moving forward bookemdano do I use the ADVC-300 still because they are analog tapes? My quick connection with a myriad of dongles from the HandyCam direct to iMovie on my MacPro Laptop was not good.

Do I use the TBC anymore?
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  #50  
05-06-2021, 09:54 AM
bookemdano bookemdano is offline
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OK, so yes it was quite common to dub Video8/Hi8 tapes to VHS back in the day. As you surmised, it was often done so tapes could be lent to others, but also for easier watching at home since the VHS VCR was always connected up and ready to go. Another reason for frugal folks like my Dad was so that he could then re-use the 8mm tapes

So, if the duplicate footage is on Video8/Hi8 & VHS then almost definitely it originated on the 8mm tapes and was dubbed to VHS at a later date. If you want to continue with the firewire/iMovie workflow then you should not need the external TBC. The Handicam has a built-in line TBC (make sure it's enabled in the camcorder menu) and frame sync that should allow you to transfer a stable signal over firewire to your Mac. I think you said you tried this already and the output did not look good? In what way? Maybe post a small clip.

You *could* use the camcorder to play the tape, connecting its output to the TBC, and then out from the TBC into the ADVC-300 and then firewire into the Mac. I wouldn't think that's necessary, but you can certainly try it though and see if it looks better to you.

If all of the VHS tapes are truly duplicates then you don't need to transfer them, but do hold onto them in case some of the original 8mm tapes were lost or damaged. The best results will come from transferring the original tapes.

For the D8 tapes, assuming that footage is all from 1999 on, then you definitely won't use the TBC there (TBCs are only used for analog video). Just play the tapes in the camcorder and connect the firewire cable to the Mac.
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  #51  
05-06-2021, 10:11 AM
DetroitPaula DetroitPaula is offline
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Thank you Thank you.

I am going to go for a walk and come back a new person regrouping to try all of your suggestions.

While walking I am going to avoid thinking about the fact that I just invested quite a bit of money in a VCR and TBC for basically 15 VHS tapes when I thought it was over 50.

I unlike your dad did not tape over stuff haha. I have 91 assorted 8mm video tapes to prove it.

And I love how you keep wanting me to hold onto those VHS tapes. Being the Catholic girl that I am I now would feel guilty if I got rid of them.

Ok I will report back with my trials and triumphs no more tribulations for me!

THANK YOU!
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  #52  
05-06-2021, 10:26 AM
bookemdano bookemdano is offline
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Haha--walks are good for the mind! I got in the habit when I got my dog but I might enjoy them even more than he does.

Yeah I'm a packrat--especially when it comes to memories. As it so happens, the only copy I have of one of our old tapes is a crappy wmv (now there's an old format) transfer my brother did in the early 2000s. He lost the original tape after doing that transfer. If I still had the tape I could do a much better job, but I'm so grateful just to have *any* copy of it.

So that's why I say to hold onto the VHS tapes for now. Even if you have accounted for all 91 original 8mm tapes, there could be sections of them that are damaged (hopefully not, but you never know). If that's the case you'll be glad for the otherwise inferior VHS copies! Once the whole project is done I'd be OK with you ditching the VHS copies--and you can finally sell those fancy cases you bought for them

Speaking of that, you can very likely recoup some or all of your costs reselling the SVHS VCR and TBC--either here on the marketplace forum or on ebay. Those items are in pretty high demand and getting scarcer all the time. So, with a little bit of effort you can not only get some return on your investment, but also save them from a landfill and ensure they get in the hands of someone else who is doing the right thing trying to save priceless (to them) analog memories!
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  #53  
05-06-2021, 04:40 PM
DetroitPaula DetroitPaula is offline
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I just completed first trial run and I have no sound.

My camcorder has the following connection areas:
S video
Audio/Video
DV in/out looks like 4 pin Firewire to me
USB - mini

I connected the S video to TBC then TBC to the ADVC-300 but I am unsure how to get sound to the ADVC-300.

Should I use firewire 4 pin from camcorder to firewire 4 pin in the ADVC-300?

The picture looked for whatever that is worth.

-- merged --

Welp after major googling I am missing this cable: A/V cable with a mini connection.

For the record I have at least 20 A/V cables of assorted configurations from who knows where and I do not have that one. So now I have to order one.

Just when I was on track I got derailed AGAIN.
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  #54  
05-06-2021, 05:31 PM
bookemdano bookemdano is offline
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Unless you really want to use the external frame TBC, you don't need to order that A/V minijack cable.

You would need a 4-pin to 8-pin firewire cable though if you don't already have one. You would plug the 4-pin end into the camcorder firewire jack and the 8-pin end into your firewire->thunderbolt adapter and then into the Mac Pro. That's it--video and sound will come from the camcorder into the Mac.

I would really suggest going that route first, because it's more direct. IMHO, only pass through the frame TBC if you're getting glitches/dropped frames. A frame TBC *shouldn't* affect the picture quality. The line TBC in the camcorder menu should be turned on, as that can/will affect the PQ, so do check to make sure it is turned on. You should also turn on the DNR/Noise Reduction setting.
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  #55  
05-06-2021, 05:44 PM
DetroitPaula DetroitPaula is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bookemdano View Post
Unless you really want to use the external frame TBC, you don't need to order that A/V minijack cable.

You would need a 4-pin to 8-pin firewire cable though if you don't already have one. You would plug the 4-pin end into the camcorder firewire jack and the 8-pin end into your firewire->thunderbolt adapter and then into the Mac Pro. That's it--video and sound will come from the camcorder into the Mac.

I would really suggest going that route first, because it's more direct. IMHO, only pass through the frame TBC if you're getting glitches/dropped frames. A frame TBC *shouldn't* affect the picture quality. The line TBC in the camcorder menu should be turned on, as that can/will affect the PQ, so do check to make sure it is turned on. You should also turn on the DNR/Noise Reduction setting.
If you are still here:

Are you saying I don't even need the ADVC-300?

I thought I needed that thing because the earlier 8mm video tapes are analogs and not digital.

-- merged --

Right now I have the S video going straight from the handicam to the ADVC-300.

I have 9 pin firewire, 6 pin firewire and 4 pin firewire.

I don't have 8 pin for some reason.

I might need another walk.

-- merged --

I just found the dang cable in---- get this my Camcorder bin! I was looking in my AV connection bin. So I did save it and now I am going to try it out with that A/V cable with a mini connection and the S video cable.
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  #56  
05-06-2021, 06:44 PM
bookemdano bookemdano is offline
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Yes, I'm saying you don't actually need the ADVC-300.

Most D8 camcorders (including the two that you have) have essentially the exact same functionality built-in--i.e. they can convert analog tapes to digital and output that digital signal from the built-in firewire port.

So now that you've found the A/V cable I would suggest taking one tape and trying it both ways:

1. Like you've normally been doing--Handicam S-Video + Red/White RCA cables out --> Frame TBC --> ADVC-300, then Firewire from ADVC-300 --> Thunderbolt adapter --> Mac Pro.

2. Handicam's firewire --> Thunderbolt adapter --> Mac Pro (assuming you have a 4-pin to 9-pin adapter/cable). And yes, sorry I mis-typed above. I meant 9-pin, not 8-pin.

Transfer at least a few minutes via both methods and see what looks better to you. In theory, #2 should be preferable since it's undergoing one less analog->digital->analog conversion, but video is subjective like so many other things. Both methods are valid, so you should go ahead and use whatever works and looks best to you.
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  #57  
05-06-2021, 06:47 PM
DetroitPaula DetroitPaula is offline
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Thank you!
Now I get it.
I will do exactly that and do the Pepsi/Coke challenge in this house.

I will let you know the results!
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  #58  
05-06-2021, 06:49 PM
bookemdano bookemdano is offline
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  #59  
05-06-2021, 08:56 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is online now
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I find that confusion often comes from too much skimming, not enough close reading. Guilty here too, it's not just you. I think you made some assumptions, glossed over some things. (Funny enough, thread too long for my time, so skimming it myself. If I miss something, just re-ask it!)

VCR/camera > TBC > capture cards = analog workflow. Not just VHS, analog videotapes (Hi8, too!)
Good equipment, not just random equipment. And you have good stuff there.

You have same footage on both VHS and Hi8? Fine. I'd capture both, archive both. Odds are good that something has been damaged over time. Not really "degraded", but possible due to storage, and conditions of the tape stock. So you may find the copy is better than the source, it happens.

@timtape, eventually. PAL DV not bad, like a DVD, 4:2:0. The bad lossy is 4:1:1 NTSC.
Back to Paula...

People moved formats all the time, to and from formats. (Whether it was smart to do is another story.) The VHS copy of a Hi8 tape is probably blah, but a Hi8 copy of a VHS tape may actually be decent. (Or better, or worse. Depends on factors.)

The ADVC-3000 is not a TBC, does not replace a TBC.
The ADVC-300 is overpriced low quality, probably worse than a good camera.

New posts on this "old" thread are fine. On-topic, your thread (OP).

Almost always use the external frame TBC (FA125). It's not the same as the line TBC in the VCR/camera.

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