Quantcast Workflow for VHS capture, computer build? - digitalFAQ Forum
Go Back    Forum > Digital Video > Video Project Help > Project Planning, Workflows

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1  
05-09-2021, 04:37 PM
VHS_UK VHS_UK is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I will copy and paste majority of the message I sent to lordsmurf since didn't know you had to post your questions on the public forum, my bad.

I'm a young chap from England. Since January this year, I been archiving adverts, continuity, TV programs from VHS tapes (I got around 1500 tapes at the moment) and uploading them onto my YouTube channel. Firstly I would like to say to lordsmurf how much his forum posts were helpful. Especially the S-VHS buyer's guide. I managed to source a working JVC HR-S9700EK with original remote for £430.

Before this I knew nothing about the hardware I need and uploaded my first 70 or so videos using a cheap Sanyo VHR-277GD and some unbranded EZCap-esque USB capture device. Both did the job. (I have however ordered a VC500 as of writing.

Going off on a tangent a little but the video capture seem to have a tendency of corrupting some frames which freezes my video editing software when exporting for a few mins. (best way to describe it). You can see it from one of my video + timeframe here where it cuts out for a brief moment: https://youtu.be/VcDFpv8dHqU?t=415.

Anyway, I want to complete my workflow kit. I had a look at a couple of forums on here and on VideoHelp regarding video cards and external TBCs, however finding the exact info I want and switching back and fourth to different forums and posts got a bit overwhelming and confusing.

What is your most recommended choice of external TBCs and video cards on different price range? Would it be possible to use a USB one for Windows 10 laptop such as the Hauppauge USB Live-2 and Diamond Multimedia VC500?

Lastly any recommendation of other devices I might need to complete my WorkFlow system?

I'm already bracing myself to be Ramsey-ed over the picture quality of my videos.

----------

I'm also planning of building a XP SP2 32-bit build for smoother VHS capturing since Windows 10 is less friendly with obsolete components.

I already created a shopping list of the components I need based on the forum posts I read on here.

Windows XP Home SP2 32-bit Build
- No clue what tower to use
- ASRock 4CoreDual-VSTA FSB 1066MHZ Motherboard (there one on a eBay auction for £27+ which ends in a week)
- Intel Core 2 Duo E4700
- Seagate Momentus 5400 120GB 2.5" Laptop Hard Disk Drive HDD (Does the OS hard drive need to be 7200rpm as well?)
- Seagate ST2000DM008 Barracuda 3.5" 2TB SATA 6Gb/s 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive (Can't tell if it a SATA-III or not. Is there one better than a ST2000DM008 or does it matter?) (Around £30)
- No clue what CPU Cooler to use, if it even needs one
- 2GB DDR2 RAM (Not sure what brand) Less than £5
- EVGA 550W SuperNOVA PSU £50
- Turtle Beach Santa Cruz TB400-2541-01 Sound Card £19 or £35
- Optical Drive (throw me a random suggestion on this one)
- Not sure what monitor to use
- At the moment, it around just under £200.

Lastly, if I am going to build a Windows XP PC. What the best ATI AIW model to use.
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #2  
05-09-2021, 05:04 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,123
Thanked 1,977 Times in 1,705 Posts
Correct, no tech questions via PM, hides advice.

1500 is a lot of tapes, so best to do it correctly.

Glad to see my advice has helped you.

9700 for £430 wasn't a deal, but definitely fair market price. Condition also matters.

EZcap/Easycap = yuck, deserved the nickname "easycrap".
VC500 is meh. Lots of issues with it, very variable in performance, not consistent at all. I've never suggested it.

That Youtube upload is pretty rotten.

#1 It seems to have line TBC, but it's full of chroma noise. The color/levels quality is ruined, video should not be that soft/smeary, that dark, that contrasty. Youtube is surely to blame for some of that (soft/smeary), but much is likely down to the capture card and capture software. (For anybody else reading: IN THIS INSTANCE where good VCR is confirmed in use.)

But #2, yes, obviously no frame TBC in use. Dropped frames may be related to other areas (I/O), but 99% likely due to no frame TBC. You need a TBC. Not just any random "TBC", or an item that "also has a TBC" (mixer/etc), but a TBC.

Standard workflow = VCR > TBC > capture card
Not just any devices, but recommended devices.
You have the good VCR with line TBC. Now you need to add the frame TBC and good capture card.

Win10 is less friendly with even new components. It's a tablet/Facebook OS that does serious tasks like video capture quite pitifully.

I'm somewhat moving on Asrock-type AGP setups, more advanced (still ATI AIW), but these are good builds. I still have one, my main personal setup.

OS doesn't need 7200.
Even capture doesn't need 7200. 5400 still exceeds the data rate needed.
7200 just adds heat, and I avoid heat.

CPU cooler required, yes, always. Get the Coolrer Master Hyper 212.

RAM brands doesn't matter. Maybe avoid generic no-name Chinese stuff from Wish/eBay/etc, but just a decent RAM brand.

LG opticals are cheap now, $25. You can add BD if you want. Depends on needs. I don't burn BDs from my capture systems, so I just have cheap DVD burner in most of them. I have BenQ, LiteOn, Plextor in a testing system.

Monitor needs to be calibrated, an IPS. Depends on need. I use mostly use LGs or ViewSonics.

You forgot speakers. The near-reference grade Monsoon MH-500 are really nice, if not shot.

Case depends on availability. Something with bottom-mounted PSU, vented top and sides, no stupid glass/LEDs. Not a wind tunnel of fans, remove most fans.

You picked a motherboard with AGP, so a good ATI AIW AGP from 7500/8500/9000s series.

Tip: Use Windows XP Integral Edition. Better hardware support, as the OS is still updated and backported unlike official XP.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- Find television shows, cartoons, DVDs and Blu-ray releases at the TVPast forums.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
05-09-2021, 05:05 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 1,788
Thanked 300 Times in 279 Posts
1500 tape is worth of several years of work and few VCR's because one VCR is not going to make it half way thru, I would look for several VHS to DVD combo running in parallel to save time and headache. An hour of quality capturing takes about 3 hours of work between capturing, de-interlacing, encoding and sorting out the videos, so 1500 tapes is about 3000 hours of video times 3 is 9000 hours, that's close to 6 years doing nothing else but capturing.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
05-09-2021, 05:13 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,123
Thanked 1,977 Times in 1,705 Posts
If the VCR is in good shape, and well maintained (before you, and during your use), 1500 tapes is fine. For example, keep it clean, but never over-clean it. There's a smart balance to longevity. Not much different from your own health. For example, take vitamins, but not too many or the wrong ones.

Capture projects do take time. It's an obvious hobby for him. I started in the video hobby in 1992. I still have some undone projects, but many completed (and watched/enjoyed) projects over the decades.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- Find television shows, cartoons, DVDs and Blu-ray releases at the TVPast forums.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
05-09-2021, 05:32 PM
VHS_UK VHS_UK is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Keep in mind all videos currently uploaded on my channel is done on the Sanyo. I haven't uploaded any with my newly acquired VCR. I had to wait a few months until one shows within my price bracket, the rest were all £800-£1300. It does have some cosmetic related markings on the top but that about it.

Last edited by VHS_UK; 05-09-2021 at 05:42 PM. Reason: Add
Reply With Quote
  #6  
05-09-2021, 05:41 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,123
Thanked 1,977 Times in 1,705 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by VHS_UK View Post
Keep in mind all videos uploaded was before I got the JVC. I haven't uploaded any with my newly acquired VCR. I had to wait a few months until one shows within my price bracket, the rest were all £800-£1300. It does have some cosmetic related markings on the top but that about it.
Interesting. In that 20-30 seconds that I viewed, I didn't really see any wiggle. It may have just been an unusually good tape, or even just that specific 20-30 second segment that I viewed. A true TBC test needs different sort of footage anyway.

But the other quality was completely tanked. So the better VCR, a better capture card, and a TBC -- you'll be in great shape from those upgrades.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- Find television shows, cartoons, DVDs and Blu-ray releases at the TVPast forums.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
05-09-2021, 05:44 PM
VHS_UK VHS_UK is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
An external TBC is the biggest obstacle for me since those things seem to cost more than a used car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
#1 It seems to have line TBC, but it's full of chroma noise. The color/levels quality is ruined, video should not be that soft/smeary, that dark, that contrasty. Youtube is surely to blame for some of that (soft/smeary), but much is likely down to the capture card and capture software. (For anybody else reading: IN THIS INSTANCE where good VCR is confirmed in use.)
Yes, the only problem I have with the recording if it something really dark, it very hard to see. At the moment I been using ArcSoft ShowBiz for my capturing. I am thinking of using MMC or possibly VirtualDub (although the file size from that are huge.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
05-09-2021, 06:06 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,123
Thanked 1,977 Times in 1,705 Posts
Used car? No.
Yes, most TBCs are in the $1k-2k range, when it excellent/like-new condition. You can't get a running used car for that. Don't compare a car to a TBC. Not at all the same. I'm sure that you can buy a house for the price of a TBC, too, but it'll be more like a cardboard box than Leave It To Beaver.

You need to use VirtualDub for capture. That's a % of the problem. You have bad quality from the VCR, the card, the software. Every aspect added more loss.

MMC is for quality MPEG capturing with AIW, don't use it for lossess capture.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- Find television shows, cartoons, DVDs and Blu-ray releases at the TVPast forums.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
05-09-2021, 06:13 PM
VHS_UK VHS_UK is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Used car? No.
Yes, most TBCs are in the $1k-2k range, when it excellent/like-new condition. You can't get a running used car for that. Don't compare a car to a TBC. Not at all the same. I'm sure that you can buy a house for the price of a TBC, too, but it'll be more like a cardboard box than Leave It To Beaver.

You need to use VirtualDub for capture. That's a % of the problem. You have bad quality from the VCR, the card, the software. Every aspect added more loss.

MMC is for quality MPEG capturing with AIW, don't use it for lossess capture.
VirtualDub seems to be the way. But I want it where I can upload MPEGs and at a nicely compressed size. A 3 hour MPEG file is around 7GB. Unless doing it in AVI would make it better. Also would it also improve if I switch to S-Video instead of composite?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
05-09-2021, 06:29 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,123
Thanked 1,977 Times in 1,705 Posts
It depends on factors.

ATI AIW MPEG capture is 4:2:0
That can be quite good.

Lossless is 4:2:2. That can matter on sources.

You do not want to upload interlaced. You want to pre-process and QTGMC yourself. Give Youtube the process video, not the raw captures. Youtube screws up quality already, but it gets really bad when uploading interlaced.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- Find television shows, cartoons, DVDs and Blu-ray releases at the TVPast forums.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
05-09-2021, 06:51 PM
VHS_UK VHS_UK is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I'm somewhat moving on Asrock-type AGP setups, more advanced (still ATI AIW), but these are good builds. I still have one, my main personal setup.
Unsure what you mean by this. Is there something better than a Asrock AGP build?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
#1 It seems to have line TBC, but it's full of chroma noise. The color/levels quality is ruined, video should not be that soft/smeary, that dark, that contrasty. Youtube is surely to blame for some of that (soft/smeary), but much is likely down to the capture card and capture software. (For anybody else reading: IN THIS INSTANCE where good VCR is confirmed in use.)

But #2, yes, obviously no frame TBC in use. Dropped frames may be related to other areas (I/O), but 99% likely due to no frame TBC. You need a TBC. Not just any random "TBC", or an item that "also has a TBC" (mixer/etc), but a TBC.

Standard workflow = VCR > TBC > capture card
Not just any devices, but recommended devices.
You have the good VCR with line TBC. Now you need to add the frame TBC and good capture card.
Could you clarify what you meant with #2. Are you referring to the Sanyo VCR?

Do you still build XP builds or have you stopped doing that? If so, what's your quote?
Reply With Quote
  #12  
05-09-2021, 07:13 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,123
Thanked 1,977 Times in 1,705 Posts
For AGP, Asrock is best.
For PCI (not PCIe), there are some ways to push hardware all the way into Kaby Lakes. But it's costlier.

#2 means external frame TBC, nothing to do with VCR.

Earlier this year, I was persuaded to make some capture systems. So I'm temporarily doing them again. However, to ship overseas, I'd have to build it, test/setup, then partially unbuild it for shipping. Built systems can be done and shipped with USA/Canada, but you have to take special care in packing. For overseas, no care is enough, it has to be partially dismantled. And also some special packing methods. But I can do, have done it. PM for quote (or email me, if I gave you my email via PM).

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- Find television shows, cartoons, DVDs and Blu-ray releases at the TVPast forums.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
05-09-2021, 11:42 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 1,788
Thanked 300 Times in 279 Posts
Like Lordsmurf said, don't feed youtube an interlaced video, and most importantly don't feed it anything less than 1080p because it will look like chicken $hit.

I occasionally upload some tape footage segments from the 80's and 90's news and commercials but not to the magnitude of 1500 tapes, Here is what I do to get youtube not to excessively butcher the video:

1- I capture lossless AVI 4:2:2 in HuffYUV (these are the archived master files).
2- De-interlace using QTGMC in fast setting.
3- Crop the frame until all noise edges are gone, I keep a crop ratio of 704:480 (704x576) (D1 standard), meaning that to get rid of the head switch say 472 lines, it requires a crop to 692 horizontal pixels based on the same ratio.
4- Resize previous ratio to 1440x1080
5- I don't encode, I just upload the resulting HuffUYV 1080p file to youtube so they can encode it for the best quality possible.

Steps 2-4 are done in one script and executed once all the parameters are set and monitored, The script will be saved and all files except the master will be deleted after the upload.

These steps are for youtube uploading only, it is not recommended for normal file sharing, I've done a lot of youtube upload experimenting and found that feeding it lossless 1080p files yields better results than feeding it an already encoded file,

Here is an upload VHS sample:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeEsMaRB-jQ

Last edited by latreche34; 05-09-2021 at 11:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
05-10-2021, 08:53 AM
VHS_UK VHS_UK is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Like Lordsmurf said, don't feed youtube an interlaced video, and most importantly don't feed it anything less than 1080p because it will look like chicken $hit.

I occasionally upload some tape footage segments from the 80's and 90's news and commercials but not to the magnitude of 1500 tapes, Here is what I do to get youtube not to excessively butcher the video:

1- I capture lossless AVI 4:2:2 in HuffYUV (these are the archived master files).
2- De-interlace using QTGMC in fast setting.
3- Crop the frame until all noise edges are gone, I keep a crop ratio of 704:480 (704x576) (D1 standard), meaning that to get rid of the head switch say 472 lines, it requires a crop to 692 horizontal pixels based on the same ratio.
4- Resize previous ratio to 1440x1080
5- I don't encode, I just upload the resulting HuffUYV 1080p file to youtube so they can encode it for the best quality possible.

Steps 2-4 are done in one script and executed once all the parameters are set and monitored, The script will be saved and all files except the master will be deleted after the upload.

These steps are for youtube uploading only, it is not recommended for normal file sharing, I've done a lot of youtube upload experimenting and found that feeding it lossless 1080p files yields better results than feeding it an already encoded file,

Here is an upload VHS sample:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yeEsMaRB-jQ

Loving the step by step. Thank you. Is this the definitive procedure you do each video you capture? I will definitely try and give it a go. I will be using less desired capturing equipment as well as doing it on Windows 10, but hopefully that will change in the coming months.

My only burden is that I wish I knew this earlier when I uploaded the last 70 or so videos on my channel. I will probably keep updated on my progress or ask more questions on this forum post if that is allowed on here. It will take a month or two but I think it going to be worth it.

Last edited by VHS_UK; 05-10-2021 at 09:04 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
05-10-2021, 12:40 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 1,788
Thanked 300 Times in 279 Posts
Yes I do it for every upload, Once you get the hang of it it becomes routine, I only change the parameters when I change the video tape, such as cropping parameters, AvsPmod allows me to monitor the frame before I start the script, Then when I hit run it opens up vdub2 and from there I save the file as HuffYUV and it starts rendering the video, I do it before I go to bed so I don't have to wait for it.

Code:
AviSource("G:\Tape14\Untitled1T.avi")
QTGMC(Preset="Fast")
prefetch(3)
Crop(8, 8, -16, -6)
LanczosResize(1440, 1080)
Reply With Quote
  #16  
05-10-2021, 02:08 PM
VHS_UK VHS_UK is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Yes I do it for every upload, Once you get the hang of it it becomes routine, I only change the parameters when I change the video tape, such as cropping parameters, AvsPmod allows me to monitor the frame before I start the script, Then when I hit run it opens up vdub2 and from there I save the file as HuffYUV and it starts rendering the video, I do it before I go to bed so I don't have to wait for it.

Code:
AviSource("G:\Tape14\Untitled1T.avi")
QTGMC(Preset="Fast")
prefetch(3)
Crop(8, 8, -16, -6)
LanczosResize(1440, 1080)
Okay hit a barrier. Since I use Windows 10 HuffYUV or Lagarith codec doesn't playback the video but does with the audio. I opened it with both the default windows Films & TV as well as VLC and it come up with something like:

"Missing Codec

This item was encoded in a format that's not supported.

0xc00d5212"

or for VLC case:

"VLC could not decode the format "HYMT" (No description for this codec)"

The only one that appeared in VD was the multicore one. I tried installing the 32-bit into the 64-bit system folder via the "rundll32.exe setupapi.dll,InstallHinfSection DefaultInstall 0" inthe SysWOW64 folder it keeps installing it in system32 and it simply confusing me.

However, capturing using Lagarith and opening it with VLC does work. Also I don't get the whole "de-interlace using QTGMC in fast setting", is that on VirtualDub?

Last edited by VHS_UK; 05-10-2021 at 02:57 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
05-10-2021, 06:17 PM
VHS_UK VHS_UK is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Can't seem to edit my message now so sorry for the double posting.

At the moment I'm struggling learning VirtualDub. HuffYUV codec isn't working for me. (I guess more reason to build a legacy operating system). The only codec I got working is the Lagarith codec. The whole de-lnterlacing process is a can of worms to me. I installed AviSynth and AVSEdit since I'm no good with coding and trying the QTGMC scripting to no avail.

There must be some really dumb-down step-by-step guide for people like who never got into analogue transferring because I am so lost right now.

Update:

I decided to capture and test a tape from my first YouTube upload. The VirtualDub sound seems more muffled than when I did it on my ArcSoft software. On one tape, the audio seems shaky and distorted but I think that was from just that tape. (I hope my JVC doesn't have a audio problem!).

Last edited by VHS_UK; 05-10-2021 at 07:04 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
05-10-2021, 08:19 PM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 11,123
Thanked 1,977 Times in 1,705 Posts
Neither VirtualDub nor Arcsoft would muffle the sound quality. It's completely passed by hardware drivers.

What can change is the timing attenuation, with certain anti-drop settings, but that's not muffle.

Use Hybrid to QTGMC, which integrates Avisynth (and Vapoursynth) into the GUI. That's easier than raw scripting, when you only need to run the deinterlace.

I've never used AVSEdit, still using AvsPmod. However, I probably should try it sometime. Need free time.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- Find television shows, cartoons, DVDs and Blu-ray releases at the TVPast forums.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
05-10-2021, 08:51 PM
VHS_UK VHS_UK is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: May 2021
Posts: 14
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
So what the codec issue? Is there a remedy for Windows 10 users or do I have to stick with Lagirth?

To recap just so I don't end up in circles when configuring VD.

I reset VD preference by deleting VirtualDub.org via regedit to start afresh. As of this moment, I currently got video compression set to Lagrith Lossless Codec with Multithreading enabled and Mode set to YUY2.

Custom video format set to 720 x 480 with YUY2: YUV 4:2:2:2 interleaved data format.

I set capture setting to 25fps since the default NTSC frame rate cause audio sync issue and because all the tapes I capture are PAL.

I haven't touched the capture timing so "Drop frames when captured frames are too close together" and "Insert null frames when captured frames are too far apart" options are ticked as well as the "Force audio clock when audio playback is enabled" ticked. apparently it doesn't matter what setting it on since I don't have a external TBC (yet).

That's all the settings I altered at the moment. I'm not sure what to do at this point.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
05-10-2021, 10:33 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is online now
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 1,788
Thanked 300 Times in 279 Posts
If you are struggling playing back HuffYUV files try MPC-HC player.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
What parts to build PC to capture VHS/Hi8 tapes? bluegrassdj Capture, Record, Transfer 40 09-13-2021 07:45 PM
Build a PC dedicated to capture, which card? Cortez Capture, Record, Transfer 29 03-04-2020 04:32 PM
Mixed VHS to Win10 computer conversion? (build feedback?) Tig_ Project Planning, Workflows 14 03-22-2019 12:45 AM
Should I build a VHS capture desktop or laptop? VideoTechMan Capture, Record, Transfer 4 05-05-2012 11:10 AM
Getting Closer: Computer Build for video capturing Kenneth M Project Planning, Workflows 15 03-09-2011 02:39 PM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:50 PM