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  #1  
08-29-2021, 08:56 AM
AntonN0 AntonN0 is offline
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Many greetings to this outstanding forum,

I am enthusiast that likes to work with digital video stuff from 2000-s. Usually it's some video art, but we do stylistic videos too.

Everything goes to videomixer and I take final picture from it. I have Panasonic AVE-5, AVE-7, MX50. Also I have Roland edirol v-4, v-8. I work with PAL, I am in Europe. I am trying to keep everything connected via s-video.

I have a problematic with recoding result. I am trying to avoid computer while I make everything and I am really satisfied with result that I see on tube-TV screens, projectors, and even LCD monitors. Sometimes I want to share content by video streaming platforms. But recording of screens by modern external camera cannot be done properly in many cases. Or I just want to make viewer to see what I see on monitor.

I am aware of digitalising VHS tapes and I even have P4 PC setup with Matrox RT.X100 But I think it's overkill for my tasks, also I want to avoid work with huge avi files, transferring and encoding them on another computer.

Now I am using cheap EasyCap video capture card. And do recording and streaming with OBS project software on my laptop. But it has really bad quality picture, even whit s-video input. Also I am not sure if I use best setting in OBS. What I like about this workflow - stability.

So there are two problems that I want to solve.
1. Achieving of materials on HDD. There I want to have good quality, but still some easier setup that Pentium PC workstation. Sometimes I work on events so I need more portability.
I have tried to use HDD DVD recorder like Sony dr-hx950. But files cannot be copied from HDD to PC because they are protected. And using DVD disks is too extravagant even for me.
Also there are some professional on camera recorders with SD cards, but usually they are 500$+ in price and hard to find for s-video.

2. I want to stream online. In this case I need some computer. Or to keep it without computer I can use some professional broadcast solution with encoders, but they are often built for hdmi and pricey. I believe I can find some discount here for my s-video quality.

I have researched what people from retro-gaming suggests. They often use hdmi capture card with combination of some scaler like this https://www.retrotink.com/product-page/2x-mini But games have lower definition that my PAL and I not sure if I need to take risk with this setup. I don't mind to go though some combination with hdmi capture and convertors. Because looks like hdmi capture is pretty stable and affordable technology now, while s-video capture is rare thing nowadays. Maybe you can suggest some descent conversion from PAL S-video mixer output to hdmi.

3. It's good to have some combo solution. So I can stream and store like with OBS project software. Maybe you have suggestion for better capture card that can be recognized as webcamera(video capture device) by OBS or any other streaming software. As I understand ATI all-in-wonder USB cannot, also some Dazzle Pinnacle cannot. But Pinnacle Dazzle DVD Recorder HD can, and Elgato stuff can. I am ready to find and buy something around 50-200$
I need them more than one for several studios. I am ready also to try something high end, but I prefer cheapest solutions to make my TV studios franchise expand faster)

I am ready to give you any additional details. I am trying to find solution several years, I don't know why I didn't ask earlier, maybe I like to solve puzzles myself, I read this forum a lot this years, and it keeps me inspire.
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  #2  
08-29-2021, 11:17 AM
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Do not use video gamer solutions for videotapes, regardless of what "gamers" claim. They largely don't know what they don't know.

P4 is really dated now, but it will function if you must use it. I'd much rather use any dual/quad-core Intel with SATA. IDE and single-core really is painful to use in the 2020s.

RTX.100, nice. At the time, at least, not so impressive now.

Easycap is nicknamed "Easycrap" for a reason. What a horrible $2 Chinese capture card, total junk.

OBS just makes it that much worse. That is NOT analog capture software, but streaming screen recording software.

A very specific laptop (a certain M6800), with specific specs, would work quite well for this. That's what I have for my portable studio setup, though it's not left the desk much in recent years. And using a specific Pinnacle card, capture to lossless, encode out to delivery as needed (Hybrid for H.264, etc).

Again, do not use OBS for capturing, as you're not really capturing at all, but screen recording.

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  #3  
08-30-2021, 02:25 AM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is offline
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I have experimented with HDMI capture, I did post a link to a video here a week or two ago, I found you can get an 'acceptable' transfer but there are much better options out there. Even then it took a fair bit of post-processing and you can end up with doubled frame rates etc.

In PAL land a basic DV capture can be a fairly good capture, I haven't tried it but I would imagine you can use DV as an input in to OBS? Maybe somebody could confirm?
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  #4  
08-30-2021, 03:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobustReviews View Post
In PAL land a basic DV capture can be a fairly good capture, I haven't tried it but I would imagine you can use DV as an input in to OBS? Maybe somebody could confirm?
That would be insane. OBS is screen recording software, not analog capture software. You can either "capture" (transfer) over Firewire, or analog capture via s-video (with quite good results, from typical consumer camcorder-shot tapes) using capture software like VirtualDub. Not OBS.

OBS is like aiming a Polaroid/phone camera at a computer monitor to take a screen shot.

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  #5  
08-30-2021, 04:25 AM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
That would be insane. OBS is screen recording software, not analog capture software. You can either "capture" (transfer) over Firewire, or analog capture via s-video (with quite good results, from typical consumer camcorder-shot tapes) using capture software like VirtualDub. Not OBS.

OBS is like aiming a Polaroid/phone camera at a computer monitor to take a screen shot.
Not entirely - OBS can capture directly from a camera input, I'm not saying it's the best way but it doesn't screen-cap everything, I see what you're saying but I think you're being a touch over-reactive.

OBS can capture 'directly' from manifold sources, whilst it's clearly geared toward screen capture (and I'm not saying it's an especially good solution) but you only have to open it and select the inputs to realise that it can record 'directly' from an input - it can directly encode from a source - you do have to set it up though.

It doesn't route everything through "screen capture" - it's awkward and not especially good at it, but yes, it can record directly from a source.

It's here if you want to take a look.
.

If it was just screen capture software it wouldn't be capable of doing Chroma-key etc.

I stress though (knowing how these threads go), I am not recommending it as a solution, but you're not entirely right here.

Last edited by RobustReviews; 08-30-2021 at 04:27 AM. Reason: Added emphasis.
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  #6  
08-30-2021, 12:32 PM
AntonN0 AntonN0 is offline
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Thank for your answers.

I want to point out that I don't work with tapes. I use only s-video or rca output from digital cameras to get picture. It can be vhs camera, but again i don't work with tapes. Only with direct outputs. So it's like in tv-studio. Sometimes I do playback from digital camera recording and dvd players (not tapes, and no mivi-dv). Also I use video mixer bult-in effects and some feedback loops, sometimes I am trying to destroy signal to have glitches. I have final picture on my Roland Edirol v-8 or Panasonic AVE-5.

And after this I need to capture output from that video mixer. I have only s-video and RCA. So I choose S-video. Roland Edirol has built-in TBC, and Panasonic WJ has similar technology that makes frames stable called DFS. So taking all this into consider many virtualdub filters are not so important in my situation. Especially if I find good capture card. Or I am wrong?

1. I understand that it's best to have some PC with All-in-wonder and virtualdub. But if I want to have usb/thunderbolt solution with just better that EasyCap video quality should I try some StarTech, Elgato or Backmagic stuff? What models are good from my situation?

2. lordsmurf, What software would you recommend instead of OBS? I didn't manage VirtualDub make work with Win10 or MacOS. I will make comparison of picture result with OBS.

3. lordsmurf, What do you propose for encoding and streaming? Is there any solution to capture lossless and do encoding on the fly to have streaming almost online? 1-2mins delay is ok.

4. Maybe there is really some older laptop plus with firewire capture card or express card slot? Is that M6800 smth like this?

5. I am ready to try some 500$ solution. But starting from 500$ I get closer to hdmi usb stations with S-video inputs like Roland v4EX. It can do harware encoding and can be recognized for streaming software so there is no sense for me to choose something else on that price.
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  #7  
08-30-2021, 02:03 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobustReviews View Post
Not entirely - OBS can capture directly from a camera input, I'm not saying it's the best way but it doesn't screen-cap everything, I see what you're saying but I think you're being a touch over-reactive.

OBS can capture 'directly' from manifold sources, whilst it's clearly geared toward screen capture (and I'm not saying it's an especially good solution) but you only have to open it and select the inputs to realise that it can record 'directly' from an input - it can directly encode from a source - you do have to set it up though.

It doesn't route everything through "screen capture" - it's awkward and not especially good at it, but yes, it can record directly from a source.

It's here if you want to take a look.
.

If it was just screen capture software it wouldn't be capable of doing Chroma-key etc.

I stress though (knowing how these threads go), I am not recommending it as a solution, but you're not entirely right here.
While it's true, OBS is a multi purpose tool just like using a screwdriver from a swiss-knife or taking a limousine to work, When capturing analog video into SD you want a dedicated rec.601 software, Having tons of settings to go through just to capture analog video is not ideal especially for newbies.
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  #8  
08-30-2021, 02:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
a multi purpose tool just like using a screwdriver from a swiss-knife or taking a limousine to work
I'm amused by the irony here.

- screwdrivers on a knife are some of the crappiest screwdrivers that exist
- limos are generally lousy cars under the hood, even if they look "fancy" to some folks (and gawdy to others)

I think OBS falsely impresses newbies. "Wow, look at all the features!" without realizing it's an overall shoddy option. OBS is fine with HD progressive sources, for streaming needs. But it truly sucks for analog SD work. It's simply the wrong tool, the end. It's just like whacking at a nail with a screwdriver, or banging a screw with a hammer. Wrong tool, I cannot say this enough.

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  #9  
08-30-2021, 02:41 PM
AntonN0 AntonN0 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I'm amused by the irony here.

- screwdrivers on a knife are some of the crappiest screwdrivers that exist
- limos are generally lousy cars under the hood, even if they look "fancy" to some folks (and gawdy to others)

I think OBS falsely impresses newbies. "Wow, look at all the features!" without realizing it's an overall shoddy option. OBS is fine with HD progressive sources, for streaming needs. But it truly sucks for analog SD work. It's simply the wrong tool, the end. It's just like whacking at a nail with a screwdriver, or banging a screw with a hammer. Wrong tool, I cannot say this enough.
What software would you suggest on win10 or macos big sure?
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  #10  
08-30-2021, 03:19 PM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I'm amused by the irony here.

- screwdrivers on a knife are some of the crappiest screwdrivers that exist
- limos are generally lousy cars under the hood, even if they look "fancy" to some folks (and gawdy to others)

I think OBS falsely impresses newbies. "Wow, look at all the features!" without realizing it's an overall shoddy option. OBS is fine with HD progressive sources, for streaming needs. But it truly sucks for analog SD work. It's simply the wrong tool, the end. It's just like whacking at a nail with a screwdriver, or banging a screw with a hammer. Wrong tool, I cannot say this enough.
I totally agree also, but the point is, it's not "just" screen-capture software, it can be set up in several different ways (my point, it's wrong to say that all captures done with it are just screen-captures) but as I also repeatedly said (even with emphasis) it's a third-rate option.

I've only used it a couple of times personally for screen-captures, it's powerful for that, but not for video capture.

It brings to mind an erstwhile colleague who used to do all of his word-processing in FrontPage....
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  #11  
08-30-2021, 05:14 PM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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If the goal is streaming it directly you would need to use OBS or something similar. As far as I know virtualdub and the like are not capable of that.

You will also have to decide how to handle the fact that analog video will be interlaced, I think OBS has some deinterlacing filters built in but not sure, if you just stream interlaced video as is you will get lines. You will also want to stream at the exact framerate the source uses, i.e 25/50 fps for PAL (I'm not sure exactly what OBS will do if there is a mismatch between the framerate of a source and framerate of the output but presumably it won't look smooth). Whether to upscale or do anything more when streaming depends on preference.

Can you give an example of what you mean by really bad quality? That may help diagnose better where things could be improved.

Since the mixers should output a stable video signal any somewhat quality S-Video capture card/dongle that allows lossless capture ought to look decent if set up right. The really cheap/crappy easycap clone cards are known to have crappy video reproduction but beyond that the raw image quality differences beyond that between cards on stable video are not massive. So, I presume either the card you are using is very bad or maybe video levels and such needs adjustment.

If the goal is streaming you would need something that works on a modern OS and is recognized by apps like OBS. Going via a retrotink or similar + HDMI seems a bit overkill in this case unless you happen to already have that sitting around (or require very low latency like for controlling Games through it but that doesn't seem like an issue here) It would probably work fine though. I would think a somewhat known-decent usb2 lossless capture dongle like IO-Data GV-USB2, Elgato video capture, Diamond VC500 etc would give an acceptable result if set up right without costing too much money (provided they show up in OBS). These older cards often used for archiving and such can be very fiddly or not work at all with Win10 as the drivers haven't been updated in years so for streaming those may not be an option.
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  #12  
09-01-2021, 06:20 AM
AntonN0 AntonN0 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hodgey View Post

Can you give an example of what you mean by really bad quality? That may help diagnose better where things could be improved.

Since the mixers should output a stable video signal any somewhat quality S-Video capture card/dongle that allows lossless capture ought to look decent if set up right. The really cheap/crappy easycap clone cards are known to have crappy video reproduction but beyond that the raw image quality differences beyond that between cards on stable video are not massive. So, I presume either the card you are using is very bad or maybe video levels and such needs adjustment.
Good point about samples. I am going to prepare comparison from inner camera memory vs capturing directly and vs videomixer. Also latter I can compare to maxtor with virtual dub if so I will share result too.

About Easycap: ThriftyAV youtube-bloger mentioned that composite is actually better quality than s-video, and it's true. I will try to show it to you also. I don't know how they managed to do so)

Thank for model suggestion BTW, they are in my list.

OK, I will check what is interlacing issue.


latreche34, thank for rec.601 mention. There is a lot to study, looks interesting.
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  #13  
09-01-2021, 09:15 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Quote:
...ThriftyAV youtube-bloger mentioned that composite is actually better quality than s-video,...

Read more: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-workflows/12129-gear-capture-stream.html#ixzz75DmHQDgv

While that may be true for some specific gear (that does a crappy job with s-video signals, and there is no shortage of that stuff) it is NOT true in general for consumer gear.

Composite combines the chroma and luma signals on one wire in overlapping frequency space, and requires filtering to separate the signals. Very sophisticated filtering (read that as costly) to get good results, sophisticated filtering that is not commonly found in modest cost gear. S-video, as in separate video, keeps the chroma and luma in separate wiring, so there is no overlapping frequency space to filter resulting in wider potential bandwidth and fewer filtering artifacts for the signals. Component video can be even better but is not common in most consumer analog video gear.

Professional/broadcast dear often does use composite output, but it also uses very sophisticate filtering and a very stable, standards compliant signal.

VHS and Video8 tape storage formats constrain the chroma signal bandwidth so the issue is not as dramatic as it would be with a chroma signal from good camera.

I suspect that screen capture software is reading data from the video buffer and thus subject to what ever color space mapping is in use on that computer. Computer color space is historically different from video space. Which is more pleasing to the viewer depends on the full signal chain from camera to display and all things in between, and is and open to individual opinions. It is, after all, and art form.
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09-01-2021, 10:10 AM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AntonN0 View Post
About Easycap: ThriftyAV youtube-bloger mentioned that composite is actually better quality than s-video, and it's true. I will try to show it to you also. I don't know how they managed to do so)
Wrong, Only Laserdisc is composite by nature, tape based analog formats and retro games S-Video is always better, Youtube is filled with clueless people don't make it your official textbook.
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09-01-2021, 11:04 AM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Wrong, Only Laserdisc is composite by nature, tape based analog formats and retro games S-Video is always better, Youtube is filled with clueless people don't make it your official textbook.
Genuinely, what is not 'composite' about a signal on an analogue videotape? - For the purpose of this question that's VHS, Betamax, Video2000 not the professional formats.

I'm not saying S-Video isn't a better connector or transmission standard, but I fail to see what isn't "composite by nature" about analogue domestic videotape?
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09-01-2021, 12:16 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Tape based formats are not composite, On tape they are recorded as component Y and C with C being modulated into a down converted signal called chroma under, The two signals are combined for composite output with some degradation, For laserdisc Composite (CVBS) is recorded on the medium as such. See the difference now?
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09-01-2021, 12:44 PM
hodgey hodgey is online now
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More detailed explanation:

Standard composite video stores luma/brightness as a voltage/signal level compared to some reference, the color/chroma is stored as two channels using something called Quadrature amplitude modulation. Not gonna go into the details but you can look it up if interested. The exact nature also depends on the TV system. Composite has the modulated color signal mixed in with the luma signal, while S-Video sends it in one wire each. Component video has one wire for each channel and just sends the raw chroma signal unmodulated.

The signal on (S)VHS, (Super)Betamax, Video2000, Video8/Hi8, U-matic, philips VCR and other consumer formats is composite in the sense that chroma and luma is bundled into the same signal, (and for that matter that both sync and image is on the same signal). The signal on tape is different from baseband composite though (i.e the composite format going through the RCA cables.).

Some of the old broadcast open reel formats, and laserdisc record the whole composite input FM-Modulated (i.e signal voltage is translated into frequency, so a higher frequency means higher signal voltage/brightness, it's somewhat similar to over the air fm-encoding) to tape. The disadvantage to that approach is that the format needed very high bandwidth, much higher than feasible for a consumer format, and for tapes one needed advanced TBC capable of storing some amount of signal and similar (i.e very expensive at the time) to avoid the tape instability to mess up the color too much.

VHS and the other mentioned formats use a process called Color Under, when recording the chroma part of the signal is split off, converted to a much lower frequency and recorded to tape (the various formats use some different pre-processing before putting it on tape). This meant it required much less bandwidth, and it also has the advantage that compensating for tape instability in the chroma signal could be done much simpler during the process of converting it back up on playback. For standard VHS and Video8, the possible luma bandwidth is low enough (maybe around 3 mhz) that there will be little overlap in the final output between the chroma part and the luma part of the signal that using composite was sufficient. S-Video started getting used with tapes with the introduction of SVHS and Hi8 as those formats had much higher luminance bandwidth and as such using composite, and they also usually featured more advanced Y/C filters for recording from composite as well. U-Matic used a different approach with dub connectors where the output is the luma + the raw chroma signal directly from the tape to allow dubbing between machines with better quality.

It's possible there are some cases when composite output from a tape may have some slight advantage due to the extra filtering being done on it, but normally S-Video will always give an equally good or better result. Additionally, there is an exception with some computer/game systems where programmers found ways to "abuse" the nature of analog video (mainly NTSC format) to create colors and effects not otherwise possible with the system and thus it may have some use to use composite in those cases (example).
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09-01-2021, 12:48 PM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
Tape based formats are not composite, On tape they are recorded as component Y and C with C being modulated into a down converted signal called chroma under, The two signals are combined for composite output with some degradation, For laserdisc Composite (CVBS) is recorded on the medium as such. See the difference now?
I'm fully aware of that, it's just a question of terminology I guess.

You're right of course, this is how it works, but would you call it "component?" It's a tricky one, I'm not doubting (like I said above) S-Video is a neater way of dealing with matters I heartily agree, I understand how signals are laid down on the tape, I guess S-Video it its natural system?
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09-01-2021, 06:10 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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You're right of course, this is how it works, but would you call it "component?"

Read more: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-workflows/12129-gear-capture-stream.html#ixzz75FwK9ZEF
Component is the standard industry term for the 3 wire system. You also see terms such as YUV and YPrPb used - the three components needed to form the color image. Keep in mind that traditionally computers worked in RBG colors while video with YUV and the two color spaces to not translate perfectly. Also computers were generally progressive while video was interlaced. Commonly used scan rates and screen sized (in pixels/scan lines) differed so moving between them, especially for SD video, is not seamless.
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  #20  
09-01-2021, 10:54 PM
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A lot of component gear, like DVD players/recorders, bundles in things like deinterlacing (often nasty ghosted blend method).

Internally, a lot of "component" is not really component at all, but composited. So the component 3-wire is fake, the signal quality was screwed up internally long before the output block. It's the same crappy methodology as used for those cheap HDMI<>composite converters that look hideous, ruin video quality.

Component is not just component.
Component may not be component at all.

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