Quantcast Capture chain without true TBC, what is best? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
01-01-2022, 07:30 AM
Chanuka22 Chanuka22 is offline
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Hi. I basically have the same question as the guy in this thread, but I don't want to graveyard it:
Will the DMR-ES10 benefit my particular workflow?

My capture gear right now includes a JVC HR-7611EU, a ES-10, a 9600XT graphics card, a Turtle Beach audio card and a XP SP2 with VirtualDub - which I plan to use.

My question, like the other guy, is if it is correctly understood that if you use a VHS with build in Line TBC as the HR-7611EU that adding the "TBC'ish" ES-10 will not help; it could in fact make things worse? And if that is the case, what is then best? To use a generic VHS without TBC and passing it through the ES-10 or using a VHS with build-in TBC and then feeding that signal directly to the capture card?

The reason for my question is that I thought TBC occured on two levels: Line and Frame, and that the ES-10 although not a TBC but with TBC'ish features, was with regards to frame sync. So I naturally assumed that line TBC from the VHS combined with frame tbc from the ES-10 would be ideal.

Sorry if I'm confusing some terms or misunderstanding something, I'm still learning
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  #2  
01-01-2022, 10:35 AM
lollo2 lollo2 is offline
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Quote:
To use a generic VHS without TBC and passing it through the ES-10 or using a VHS with build-in TBC and then feeding that signal directly to the capture card?
It depends on the conditions of your tapes. ES-10 has stronger correction than VCR lineTBC, and you can use it after disabling this last, but you are introducing an additional non transparent element in your chain.

If you see no problems in your captures (vertical lines should be straight, no waves, stable frame, etc.) don't use it; but it is not often the case...

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  #3  
01-01-2022, 11:22 AM
Chanuka22 Chanuka22 is offline
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Thank you for taking the time lollo. And what about the VHS with TBC + passthrough through ES-10, is that a big no-go as I think I've read on this forum?
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  #4  
01-01-2022, 11:50 AM
lollo2 lollo2 is offline
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Quote:
VHS with TBC + passthrough through ES-10
In theory makes little sense. In practice, it may correct marginal and not common issues. I experienced a ES-15 after a JVC HR-S9500MS with tbc on, and did not like it, but my tapes are my tapes.

You could run some experiment and post the results here, so we can check

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  #5  
01-01-2022, 03:51 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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If your VCR is in good working condition you should be able to capture at least an SP tape without needing the ES-10, The key is to have a clean VBI signal so the capture card would lock on the frame timing, By experience I've discovered that using a S-Video port delivers a cleaner and sharper VBI signal and never needed any kind of frame TBC for at least SP tapes.

In the later years of analog video recording people started using these non standard transport speeds, EP, LP, SLP ... in VCR's and camcorders trying to save on tape space, It worked well back then since machines were in good condition and every one played its own tapes, when we get to the digital era and started to playback those tapes with different old worn out machines and often inferior capture hardware, things start to go haywire. Now even with a combination of good VCR, a frame TBC and digital stablizer like a DVD recorder we still having problems.

To summerize, every tape is unique, sometimes a combination of hardware may get the job done sometimes different VCR's needed, There is no such "what is the best workflow". No one size fits all, every tape has to be dealt with individually.

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  #6  
01-01-2022, 06:04 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Quote:
To summerize, every tape is unique, sometimes a combination of hardware may get the job done sometimes different VCR's needed, There is no such "what is the best workflow". No one size fits all, every tape has to be dealt with individually.
^+1. Excellent summary! The equipment recommendations and work flows you see are those that tend to work well most often. However, they will not always be best or necessary with every tape. And sometimes a "good" VCR model may not be in optimal condition or may give disappointing results with specific tapes. If you get a capture that satisfies you, move on the the next one. If a capture is disappointing try modifying the workflow to see if it can be improved; e.g., using a different VCR, adding/removing DNR, line TBC, frame TBC, etc. Go with what works best for you with a given tape.

And keep in mind that legacy SD analog video tape recordings are a far cry from today's HD on a big screen. VHS was designed when a 19" color CRT was considered big screen and driven to meet the lowest cost while providing an image acceptable to most consumers. The CRT's shadow mask/aperture grill and phosphor dot pitch effectively limited the possible resolution, as did beam width and focus. An example: a 1984 vintage 13" JVC manufactured Commodore video SD monitor that has an effective horizontal line display width of about 420 pixels. (Adequate for VHS and broadcast TV.)
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  #7  
01-02-2022, 03:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chanuka22 View Post
My question, like the other guy, is if it is correctly understood that if you use a VHS with build in Line TBC as the HR-7611EU that adding the "TBC'ish" ES-10 will not help;
This isn't true. The JVC line TBC is a moderately powerful line TBC -- but nothing else. The ES10 is strong (+crippled) line TBC with a non-TBC frame sync. The difference is the frame sync. You want a frame sync TBC ("frame TBC"), but a weenie non-TBC frame sync is better than nothing. Line timed video still isn't frame corrected.

Quote:
it could in fact make things worse?
This is true. ES10 has side effects. With PAL, luma changes (hot, blown), posterization.

Quote:
And if that is the case, what is then best? To use a generic VHS without TBC and passing it through the ES-10 or using a VHS with build-in TBC and then feeding that signal directly to the capture card?
You need something. There are some weak TBC(ish) units, where "TBC" is an addon/afterthought to the device. The DataVideo DVK-100 chroma keyer is an example. If the video isn't pre-processed clean, it fails at frame timing. But with line correction, it does good frame correction. The most ideal is the ES10+DVK combo, but if your sources plan nice, it can work. Usually SP camcorder master tapes only, not copies of copies, VCR tapes, retail tapes.

Quote:
The reason for my question is that I thought TBC occured on two levels: Line and Frame, and that the ES-10 although not a TBC but with TBC'ish features, was with regards to frame sync. So I naturally assumed that line TBC from the VHS combined with frame tbc from the ES-10 would be ideal.
The ES10 does not have frame TBC. It is strong+crippled line TBC only, and non-TBC frame sync. It's crippled due to anti-copy cooperation, and natural errors can look like the artificial errors. So errors in capture, dropped frames, audio sync, capture abort, etc.

All DVD recorders had frame syncs. No DVD recorder had frame TBC. Almost none had line TBC. Almost none had passthrough ability. A single item with both (actual, working!) frame and line TBC is/was elusive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lollo2 View Post
It depends on the conditions of your tapes. ES-10 has stronger correction than VCR lineTBC, and you can use it after disabling this last, but you are introducing an additional non transparent element in your chain.
That's it.

The 1st line TBC owns the signal. If JVC on, the ES10 does nothing line-wise, only the non-TBC frame sync, and the luma/posterization/etc downsides. That's the tradeoff of not using actual TBCs.

Quote:
If you see no problems in your captures (vertical lines should be straight, no waves, stable frame, etc.) don't use it; but it is not often the case...
Correct, but needs repeating: line-only rarely works.

Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
If your VCR is in good working condition you should be able to capture at least an SP tape without needing the ES-10, The key is to have a clean VBI signal so the capture card would lock on the frame timing, By experience I've discovered that using a S-Video port delivers a cleaner and sharper VBI signal and never needed any kind of frame TBC for at least SP tapes.
I've never seen sustained captures do that. Short durations, sure. But not a full hours-long tape.

I'm in the middle of Win10 capture tests right now, and this is why I had to pull out my green AVT-8710, for a sustained burn-in test. It'd drop randomly, and got worse as the tape went on.

Quote:
To summerize, every tape is unique, sometimes a combination of hardware may get the job done sometimes different VCR's needed, There is no such "what is the best workflow". No one size fits all, every tape has to be dealt with individually.
There is a "what is (usually) best" workflow. But not best for every tape or even collection of tapes. EP, linear audio, VHS-C, 10-hour thin tapes, etc. Those are monkey wrenches.

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  #8  
01-02-2022, 05:30 AM
lollo2 lollo2 is offline
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Quote:
If you see no problems in your captures (vertical lines should be straight, no waves, stable frame, etc.) don't use it; but it is not often the case...
I do not know if it helps, but as additional input this is a small s-vhs video (with all its limits) that we used to capture in order to check the behaviour of a (limited) set of hardware, using the vertical, horizontal and diagonal lines present.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tec6...bFmEt&index=32

As lordsmurf said, you may need to have the ES-10 in for a stronger line-correction and/or a pseudo frame-correction, but if the overall look of your videos without it is similar to the linked video you probably can avoid to use it.

Last edited by lollo2; 01-02-2022 at 05:41 AM.
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  #9  
01-02-2022, 10:02 AM
RobustReviews RobustReviews is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by latreche34 View Post
If your VCR is in good working condition you should be able to capture at least an SP tape without needing the ES-10, The key is to have a clean VBI signal so the capture card would lock on the frame timing, By experience I've discovered that using a S-Video port delivers a cleaner and sharper VBI signal and never needed any kind of frame TBC for at least SP tapes.
The vast majority of the time we use 'full fat' locked TBCs for almost all transfers (not domestic units) but there have been occasions due to capacity or equipment failure where we've transferred tapes without frame TBC, these tapes are for preview not archival.

There's an increase in reported dropped frames, but most of this is on time-code events so it's arguable this doesn't mean much anyway, loss of time-code is a loss of time-code, (LOTC event) just the frame TBC will smudge it over until TC is restored. Obviously, with no TC, there's no viable signal on the tape anyway.

It does create instantaneous batches of dropped frames in the 'thousands' - but for decent SP tapes, I would question as to whether people doing this as a one-and-done hobby really gain the full benefit of a frame TBC. This is a broad statement, and dependent on many factors, clearly.

I think investment in a good machine and capture card is, fundamentally more useful for the hobbyist.
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  #10  
01-02-2022, 02:43 PM
latreche34 latreche34 is offline
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Yes, Professional formats have an extra track for time code, Consumer analog formats have only vertical blanking intervals VBI built in the video signal and it's part of the frame raster, it gets ignored later on as an overscan during ADC sampling and partially replaced by 16 black pixels, That's why I found using S-Video improves the clarity of that VBI signal, Even the VCR's line TBC plays a role in straightening it.

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  #11  
01-02-2022, 09:36 PM
cbehr91 cbehr91 is offline
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I was running into a scenario in digitizing some family tapes (SP masters on Scotch, TDK, and Sony branded tapes) where anytime there was a tape break (timecode break as said above) my captures would lose audio sync. However, there were no other visual errors or dropped/inserted frames with my captures (JVC HR-DVS3U>ATI 600 USB>VirtualDub). Is this something only a frame TBC will fix? When I put my ES10 in the chain audio stayed in sync and my captures were an even 29.97 fps on two-hour tapes with a handful of tape breaks on each tape, but I know that's not "ideal".
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  #12  
01-02-2022, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cbehr91 View Post
I was running into a scenario in digitizing some family tapes (SP masters on Scotch, TDK, and Sony branded tapes) where anytime there was a tape break (timecode break as said above) my captures would lose audio sync. However, there were no other visual errors or dropped/inserted frames with my captures (JVC HR-DVS3U>ATI 600 USB>VirtualDub). Is this something only a frame TBC will fix? When I put my ES10 in the chain audio stayed in sync and my captures were an even 29.97 fps on two-hour tapes with a handful of tape breaks on each tape, but I know that's not "ideal".
That's a perfect example of something that happens with lack of frame TBC. When the footage breaks, signal data becomes junk. The junk confuses the capture card, which drops it. A mere frame sync (like in the ES10) provides continuity, but that's often not enough. The frame sync TBC provides continuity and rebuilds the signal to spec. The TBC cleans/rebuilds/purifies the signal, and that's what a capture card needs. Capture cards are not TVs, and are not tolerant of signal issues.

Being an SP camcorder master at least gave the mere frame sync a chance. But tapes made in VCRs, retail tapes, copies of copies -- not happening. The ES10/15 will sometimes work visual miracles with that strong (+crippled) line TBC, on those sorts of non-camcorder sources, but the capture card will still balk. Frame TBC required there. Even the SP camcorder tapes really need a TBC, as the ES10/15 is doing visual harm. ES10/15 is not a TBC replacement.

Frame TBCs can correct some visual errors, usually movement based, but that's not what it's for. It's for the signal, not visuals. Line TBC cleans the visual, but not the signal.

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