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  #1  
07-09-2011, 02:38 AM
Hackerpcs Hackerpcs is offline
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Hi. I have a project to convert VHS tapes with sports events (only) recorded from 1992 to 2006. All of them PAL. They mainly go to web distribution and as you may have already guessed no need for any editing, just cutting out commercials and other unwanted material. I have read a lot since last summer and learned a lot and now I want to ask the experts about the project.
Now I have:
Playback:
VCR LG V280N-SZ
http://www.amazon.co.uk/LG-V280N-Com.../dp/B003YL16LE
New, got it last October-November.

Capture:
http://www.cryptoelectronics.gr/cata...partno=V002451
(use Google Translate)
Cheap one, has the connections I need (or I think I need )
Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 @3.16 default
Normal 7200rpm SATA II drives, no SSD's.

I used to capture with HuffYUV x64 with Vdub x64 but had problem with "lagging" in the video. Now I tried HuffYUV multi-threaded and things go better. Any suggestions here?
To my questions now:
Should I sell my current VCR and buy some of the recommended ones? The tapes doesn't have some of the problems like these at the bottom, only 1-2 of them. And if yes, can I find a good PAL one up to $250?

Is capture card a problem? It is a cheap one so should I expect good results? I can provide samples.

The budget is a problem. I can't spend much, so TBC is out. So if most tapes are well recorded, will I notice much difference?

Is it normal for VirtualDub to crash at the end of a capture?

What filters are mostly used for VHS captures? Or to make the question easier, what filters to you use with VHS captures?

Thanks in advance for your help.
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  #2  
07-09-2011, 04:01 PM
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Combo VCRs are some of the worst VCRs ever made, period. The only exception to that rule is maybe a few of the professional-series JVC combo decks, but those were combinations of S-VHS VCR, DV player/recorder, hard drive, and MPEG-2 DVD recorder -- in some combination of those 4 features (combos it 2, 3 and 4 items together). The odds of that LG being a good VCR are about as good as having a winning lottery ticket. It's what some may defend as being "good enough", which is an excuse for lousy quality.

I would get a better JVC VCR, no question about it.
I see several on eBay for under 250 quid. For example, http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/JVC-HR-S7600-P...item4155d6beec

The biggest issue with any kind of compressed encoding is that analog tape noise causes LOTS of digital encoding noise. SO you want to clean up the video as much as is possible before any digital devices starts to transfer it.

I don't know much about that specific capture card. I would hope that it can, at very least, capture full resolution (720x576) uncompressed/lossless AVI files with no issues.

An external TBC is not about quality of the image -- it's about the ability for the capturing device to receive a stable signal, which tapes inherently do not have, and that a VCR does not put out. When unstable signals are received by capturing cards, the recording may abort, you could get dropped frames, or even run into far more significant issues.

Only an internal TBC (found in a VCR) is for image quality.

The topic of TBCs is explained here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...time-base.html

VirtualDub should not crash, no. If it does crash before the capture is saved, the captured video file will be corrupted and unusable. (Even if it "opens up" in something -- don't trust it! It's a bad file.) Try to use the normal non-64 version of VirtualDub. There's really no reason to use the x64 build of VirtualDub.

Most filter works needs to be done in hardware. After noise is encoded into a digital file, it's often too late to fix the problems. Software filters really depends on the content. At minimum, for streaming use, deinterlace with Yadif, crop the edges off the video, use temporal smoother (3), and tweak the levels a bit. That sounds easy, but there's some art to it. And then you often will need other filters to truly turn the video into the best quality it could be.

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  #3  
07-09-2011, 05:19 PM
Hackerpcs Hackerpcs is offline
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Thank you very much for your reply, really informative. I'm going to use VirtualDub x86 with HuffYUV MT with 2 cores (E8500) tonight and see crashes-dropped frames, etc.

My only concern is the VCR, I can afford up to 200€ or ~£180 or $285, hardly a little more (eg 220-230€) but not more. Do you think I will be able to find a good one at that price range?
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  #4  
07-09-2011, 05:42 PM
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Just keep looking. A good VCR in that price range may show up.

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  #5  
07-10-2011, 01:46 AM
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http://i52.tinypic.com/33e52rm.jpg

What do you think? HuffYUV Multi-threaded set to 2 cores and Threading option set to 1.


33e52rm.jpg.jpg


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  #6  
07-11-2011, 09:39 AM
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That's a typical codec issue -- you have codec conflicts on your system. Green screen is a common issue.
If you ever installed a codec pack, uninstall it.
Also read this: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...odec-pack.html

If not a simple codec conflict, the capture card is unable to capture video in VirtualDub. That happens, too.
Many of the "PVR" style cards are unable to capture analog video properly. The drivers don't support it.

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  #7  
07-11-2011, 10:24 AM
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Oh no no, recording finished successfully with no crashes, I just painted it green
I posted it to tell me your opinion about the results.
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  #8  
07-11-2011, 12:01 PM
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I have great news! I offered 180 pounds (200€) for this VCR
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.d...=STRK:MEWNX:IT
and seller accepted it I think it's a great price from the original 230 pounds (260€) price.
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  #9  
07-15-2011, 12:28 AM
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Oh ... I get it.

1880 frames inserted is not ideal. 0 frames is ideal, but 0 drops is also desired. I captured an 8-hour video last night, and then slept for about 5 hours after it stopped. So I have this huge 500GB capture -- with 0 dropped frames, 0 inserted frames. The TBC did what it was supposed to do, and the computer hardware didn't bottleneck and drop/repeat("insert") frames. So that's some cause for concern to you -- 1880 isn't good. It may be a simple issue of hard drive performance -- if it's defragmented, if you're trying to capture to the main OS drives, etc. You want to capture to a second hard drive that's as blank as possible, or as defragged as possible.

Audio clock runs high, but is within tolerances.

VCR looks good, price is fair. I paid more for my 7900EK PAL, and it's served me quite well for about 7 years now. Of course, it mostly sits unplugged, as I only use it a handful of times per year. PAL deck in NTSC land, and all.

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  #10  
07-27-2011, 11:08 PM
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I got the VCR today (JVC HR-S7600EK, had a delay with a bank transfer) and image is great, most of noise is gone, SHARP setting sharpens the image without adding noise as the previous VCR did and Digital TBC/NR works great (got frame inserts when the tape is unstable itself, no drops at all).
The thing is, I used to use StaxRip to rip to x264, should I use VirtualDub with filters (like Neat Video) now that only a little to none noise is present?
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  #11  
07-30-2011, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
I got the VCR today (JVC HR-S7600EK, had a delay with a bank transfer) and image is great, most of noise is gone
Excellent news. That's the kind of thing we like to read here. That VCR appears to be performing as desired, as is normal for that model of JVC VCR. I would just caution use of the Sharp mode, as it's really a bit too aggressive, and often does little more than enhance tape grain rather than actual in-image details. Just watch for that, and do what looks best, yet without overdoing it.

Quote:
The thing is, I used to use StaxRip to rip to x264, should I use VirtualDub with filters (like Neat Video) now that only a little to none noise is present?
I need to clarify what you mean here. The term "rip" should be reserved for extracting specially formatted data off of discs. For example, ripping DVD-Video content back to ISO file or MPEG data. Or ripping an audio CD back to uncompressed WAV files. Tapes are "captured" and not "ripped" because they were never digital.

So are you referring to ripping videos from DVDs made on a DVD recorder?
Or capturing video with a computer capture card?

Either way, I guess, the two programs are built for different tasks.
VirtualDub is a rudimentary editor, and basic video capture program, though with significant filtering abilities to improve video quality (by way of both internal filters, and user-developed filter plugins).
Staxrip is an all-in-one tool made for converting DVD to MPEG-4 formats like H.264 or XviD, with a few standard filters to maybe help with output quality. As owner of MainConcept Reference, I've never had need to use Staxrip, though I've tested a few of the x264 GUI tools.

I'd suggest simply using the right tool for the task at hand.

For capturing and filtering, VirtualDub, without output to lossless AVI. Then convert to the desired end-user format in proper conversion tools. For me, that's MainConcept. For you, that could be Staxrip, or possibly an alternative program. Are you looking to encode these for online use, for DVDs, something else?

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  #12  
07-30-2011, 06:41 PM
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Hm, I would say the opposite, it uses the SHARP setting well but that would be compared to the LG that uses the SHARP setting WAY aggressively.

I use the term "rip" because of the scene term "VHSrip". I mean converting the lossless AVI (captured by VirtualDub) to x264 using StaxRip.
I use it because my goal is both web distribution and quality archiving because tapes aren't mine and I will have to give them away so I must have a quality archive not with 2000kbps matroskas. So I used to convert a lossless AVI without filters to a 2000kbps mkv for distribution and a mkv with the setting to 20Mbps max bitrate that usually resulted in a 7-10 one (DVD quality, probably best because x264 is better than MPEG 2 at the same bitrate).
My question is that is it the best method now that a little noise is present on the lossless AVI or should I enhance it with filters like Neat Video in VirtualDub?
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  #13  
08-25-2011, 12:39 AM
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kpmedia kpmedia is offline
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I just noticed this post was left hanging. Answers and comments below.

Quote:
the scene term "VHSrip"
I've never understood some of those "scenes" out there (video or otherwise). When good easy terms already exist, I don't see the point in making up new ones. If nothing else, it makes it harder to communicate with professionals that can further their hobby. It's hard enough keeping up with actual jargon, without adding new stuff. "VHSrip" = "video capture from VHS" or "captured VHS".

Quote:
I mean converting the lossless AVI (captured by VirtualDub) to x264 using StaxRip. I use it because my goal is both web distribution and quality archiving because tapes aren't mine and I will have to give them away so I must have a quality archive not with 2000kbps matroskas.
Lossless AVI to H.264 should be great quality, assuming all proper filtering was done pre-H.264, or was left as interlaced (usually not). You'd want a high-end deinterlacer like NNEDI2+YadifMod, using Avisynth. And then crop your borders, or mask them (cover with black) if TV viewing is potential later on.

Quote:
in a 7-10 one
I don't quite follow. One what?

Quote:
(DVD quality, probably best because x264 is better than MPEG 2 at the same bitrate)
Correct. That and about 3-4 others reasons, actually -- not just bitrate.

Quote:
My question is that is it the best method now that a little noise is present on the lossless AVI or should I enhance it with filters like Neat Video in VirtualDub?
Filtering can aid compression. However, NeatVideo tends to be somewhat harsh, and best used for the most severely damaged of videos. There are better filters (filter chains) possible in Avisynth and/or VirtualDub. Those will reduce noise, but without reducing picture quality and image sharpness. Yes, NeatVideo can be customized weaker than defaults, but that still doesn't change the fact that it exists mostly for combating serious video noise. (Similar to NeatImage for photography.)

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  #14  
08-25-2011, 06:08 AM
Hackerpcs Hackerpcs is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
I don't quite follow. One what?
7 to 10Mbps mkv

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
Correct. That and about 3-4 others reasons, actually -- not just bitrate.
Could you tell them?

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
Filtering can aid compression. However, NeatVideo tends to be somewhat harsh, and best used for the most severely damaged of videos. There are better filters (filter chains) possible in Avisynth and/or VirtualDub. Those will reduce noise, but without reducing picture quality and image sharpness. Yes, NeatVideo can be customized weaker than defaults, but that still doesn't change the fact that it exists mostly for combating serious video noise. (Similar to NeatImage for photography.)
Most of my cassettes are recorded with little noise so NeatVideo is not needed. Which filters are you talking about?
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  #15  
09-18-2011, 05:11 AM
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Quote:
7 to 10Mbps mkv
This should be a great bitrate for H.264 encoding, though PQ (picture quality) will depend on resolution; the allocation of bits to pixels.

Quote:
Could you tell them?
No square-pixels available.
Embedded deblock filtering on the decode side.
"Lossless" psychovisual encoding parameters (CABAC)

Quote:
Most of my cassettes are recorded with little noise so NeatVideo is not needed. Which filters are you talking about?
NeatVideo can be a harsh filter -- especially left to default settings.
Temporal Smooth is a good VirtualDub filter.
Deen is a good Avisynth filter.
The filter you use is really determined by the errors you see in the video.

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