Deinterlacing VHS or not that is the question...
Hello guys,
First thanks to admin and staff for this site. Is that commun workflow step to deinterlace VHS video after capture....I can be missing something...I am far from being a expert. I would like to have your tought on this topic. I need to create archives from VHS-PAL. I read many topics that says that you don't need to deinterlace if you aim is not to create streaming. In fact you will lose some information during the proccess. I guess that I can deinterlace in Adobe premiere pro (the one I have) after the capture. But then I read this topic, that you can deinterlace, without losing anything, by capturing at higher resolution. http://www.divx-digest.com/articles/vhs_capture.html I will appreicate you tough of the subject because my experience says that there is often worlds beetween theory and pratice, and me I don't have much pratice... Regards |
Deinterlacing is always a destructive process. So it's best avoided.
However, some workflows require deinterlacing. For example, somebody that converts VHS tapes for Youtube viewing. That process requires the interlaced VHS video be converted into a digital progressive stream. Quite a few restoration workflows carry the same requirement, due to the way the filters function. As far as the divx-digest guide is concerned... Quote:
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If you want to archive, you capture in Huffyuv AVI (lossless compression) and store the AVI as is. Then from there you can go to be making DVD, DiVx, deinterlace or any other format while always keeping the original interlaced file.
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Thanks for your inputs...I had the feeling that deinterlacing was "adding" more trouble than anything else...but I am thankfull that someone with knowledge (like you) put things in the right context with facts.
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Hello metaleonid,
your affirmation raise a good question to me. Does it mean that winDV or extase DV capture free softwares capture AVI in a non lossless compression format? I ask because to be honest I never ask myselft if these programs were doing acqusition in a lossless compression way... Thanks Quote:
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DV is a lossy 5:1 data compression.
With NTSC video, it also has a fairly lossy 4:1:1 colorspace compression (worse than DVD). With PAL, the color is 4:2:0, the same as DVD. DV25 (mini-DV, consumer DV) is not lossless. It is inside of an AVI container, but remember that AVI is not a "video format". If you search the site for "DV", you'll come across a number of articles and forum posts on the topic. |
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I read a bit about colorimetric theory...but to be honest...right now the only thing I know is that I will capture my PAL-VHS via ACDV-300, so far acquisition worked well with Premiere pro and Extase. ACDV-300 seem to be a expensive capture device that I will probably discard if I was consult before initial purchase. At least I succed to get a JVC s-vhs HR7600EK in wich I put more hope vs "speudo TBC" from ACDV-300.
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Basically I have 2 capture devices: the Philips SAA713xxx based TV Tuner card and Canopus ADVC-300. I use the 1st one to capture in Huffyuv lossless AVI. I use it mainly to capture from the high quality VHS cassettes that are of high importance to me. The process of capturing and syncing audio/video takes a long time. Fortunately I don't have many of those to deal with. I use the 2nd one (Canopus) to capture in DV (because it doesn't give any other option) with WinDV. I use it mainly with not so great quality VHS cassettes and that are not high importance to me. I use 3d noise reduction during capturing. The capture quality doesn't look worse than the original. The 4:1:1 color space doesn't make worse what wasn't great and sharp to begin with. And plus, the end result motion has far less noise than the original VHS which is satisfactory to me. This process is very quick. What I do is not necessarily what you might want to do but perhaps you might want to consider those as options. But one thing. If you want to archive, do not deinterlace. |
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--Leonid |
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In Autogain filter (2nd video tab), try to select fixed rather than auto and reduce Y a bit to make sure you don't have White Peak spread all over your picture when it has bright moments. And by the way. If you use ADVC-300, use WinDV. Don't use anything else. And by the way, I personally think ADVC is a good device. Maybe overpriced, but it's good at what it does. And I haven't had any dropped frames with it. If it had an option to capture uncompressed or with lossless compression with 4:2:2 colorspace, then it would probably be the near to perfect device. |
Hi metaleonid,
I will try to follow you :) So when you use Huffyuv lossless AVI you got file bigger (5X) vs WinDV? Can you give me the amount of space for 1 hour of video, just to give me a idea. If I want to capture my VHS-PAL the best way (by the way I have some good quality tape (all original TAPE recorded in SP mode and played very few time), I have to buy a PAL card capturing device like this one for example http://www.ebay.com/itm/ATI-ALL-IN-W...item2eb9532d34 I read on this forum that ATI all-in-wonder were appreciated. You can see a significative difference at the end product (DVD ripped)... Thanks for your patience Quote:
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Hi again,
ACDV-300 Okay if I resume I should try stong 3d noise, but no weak or no 2d noise reduction. JVC S-VHS deck use Edit mode (avoid auto; soft; sharp mode) Fixed autogain filter (instead of auto) Reduce Y a little. Thanks Quote:
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I'm not sure you can follow me using the same hardware I do. The LifeView FlyVideo 300FM which I use is long out of print. And I don't think the newer cards work with this http://auzol.narod.ru/index_e.html software which is the only software that allows to use native Philips reference drivers. Also it might be pain in the ass to install it. I'm not discouraging you, but just if you get it and it doesn't work, don't blame me. :) I will give you precise figure of space. The amount of space of 54 minute and 49 seconds of 720x576 PAL DV video with uncompressed LPCM 48kHz/16bit audio is 12,182,06Kb The amount of space of 54 minute and 48 seconds of 704x576 PAL Huffyuv video with uncompressed LPCM 48kHz/16bit audio is 24,229,884Kb Personally, I do not like ATI even though I haven't owned one. Why? It's already been discussed. Here's the link: http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/1...hilips-SAA7130 The guy compares 3 cards: Brooktree AverTV, ATI and Philips based AverMedia DVD EZMaker. Well AverTV is not an option. It sucks. ATI doesn't produce as much details as AverMedia. So then even if it can capture uncompressed/losslessly compressed, what's the point of of capturing if it can't produce as much details as Philips based card. Also download bitmap files post #3 which also shows that Philips based card gave superior image. However, maybe the guy had different sharpness settings. I don't know. Now look at this thread here: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...7314-chip.html I made comparisons between ADVC and FlyVideo. Note that FlyVideo Y/C NTSC separation simply suck. But if you compare S-Video, you will see that both cards are pretty close to each other. So do some more research. In fact, I am still after yet another capture device. I need to capture from the LaserDiscs and for that I need good Y/C separation for NTSC. As I just mentioned my tuner card is horrible at it. |
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As for 2d. Set it either to Weak or to OFF. Do not use any values beyond weak. It will simply blur the image. JVC - yes, edit mode. Don't forget S-Video out. Don't use composite. As for Canopus Video 2 tab that depends on your image. If you have a lot of white color, try to set it to FIX and reduce Y. If you start seeing colors other than white, keep reducing Y. It's very tricky thing. You have to use preview option (output to TV) and judge by your eyes. |
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And by the way, any tuner card might give you audio/video sync problem. No matter what experts say, the drift might occur due to the fact that audio card is a separate entity from the video capture card. Canopus seems to be good at it although I haven't checked thoroughly. But there's technique to fix sync problem.
And since I just finished capturing one PAL VHS tape, I thought I would share the images. This was not simultaneous capture. I screwed up settings on Philips, so I had to recapture for just tuner card. Anyway, Philips Huffyuv compressed. Reduced white peak gain. No noise reduction. Used S-Video. Canopus - 2d filter Weak, 3d filter strong. Reduced Y. The rest unchecked. Used composite. |
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Your pictures talk by itself. Also, as you wisely said, each case is unique, but you knowledge is very valuable for me. In my case I will work with pretty much the same kind of scene. I got a contract to archive PAL-VHS tape of bulgarian philosopher Omraam Mikhael Aivanhov. So if you look on youtube it's always same kind of scene, white clothes caracter with sometime white background or blue background. So I think it's a good new because I will work with very static scene. Even if they already invested in the ACDV-300, I will do some search for a PAL capturing card that can match Huffyuv, showing them differences between your pictures may convice them to invest in a "philips like" card. I don't know if it's a stupid question but can I look for good NTSC/PAL card or I'm better to look for card that do just PAL or just NTSC? I don't know if I read that on this thread or forum (I read so much now that I don't remember where I read it), may look "off-topic", apparently buying I s-VHS jvc deck without remote is a very bad investment? I assume it's because the board deck by itself is not sufficient to take advantage of all features? In any case merry christmas to all of you! Peace |
Leonid,
Funny and encouraging for me to read what you said about Lordsmurf "But still it is great to hear expert's input." Yeah there is expert and expert...Einstein call it relativity...lol I think Lorssmurf is the a kind of "papa smurf":D http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...ernatives.html |
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Composite comb filtering even on modern capture cards is an afterthought. Most of them have 2D line comb filters at best. At least one can rely on an external device to do the job properly if needed. If one wants to see what modern capture cards can do, check out this much more recent comparison thread. http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...on-screenshots |
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