Quantcast Capture 8mm cassettes workflow advice - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
03-18-2012, 08:57 PM
tomr tomr is offline
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Hi.

First off, thanks for a great site.

I have taken the job to capture 15+ 8mm/HI8 cassettes recorded on a Hitachi 8mm video camera (VM-E340E) as a gift to my parents. And also I want to save it for myself and my siblings. My goal is to get as close to the original as possible and if needed I can get some more equipment if it can improve the quality.

The video cassettes start out as BASF HG 8mm video cassettes and end with Sony HI8 cassettes. Since it is stated as an 8mm video camera I guess I do not get any better quality on the HI8 cassettes? The oldest ones are from 1998 range to around 2006. We also have a couple of older VHS cassettes recorded on a borrowed camera and transferred to VHS. I do not know what kind of camera this was recorded on and what technology. But since this is only a couple I will do them last and I may find a video service to do them if I find them to be professional, after asking them some key questions after reading this site.

Back to 8mm. I have done some test recordings with the following work flow.

Camera -> ATI600USB -> Vdub (Huffyuv MT .avi)

Post process:
Audio: Save audio as .wav from Vdub. Noise removal and normalize in Audacity. Put back together in a Avisynth script.

Video: I have tried allot of ways and gone in circles a couple of times and been confused....
Mostly in vdub and avisynth. I have done some programing before so avisynth is not to scary. Trying to get familiar with the syntax, pros and cons at the moment.
The best result I achieved with the QTGMC script in Avisynth or neatvideo demo. Only down side is the time encoding, but for over night encoding it works. I need to get Avisynth MT installed. What version should I go for?

Here are some sample frame grabs from vdub from a dark noise scene. Outdoor scene and scenes with better lightning conditions look good.

Original interlaced footage:


Original bob:


Code:
AssumeTFF()
Bob(0.0, 1.0)
Letterbox(12,12,12,12)
QTGMC, deen, removegrain.


Code:
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
AssumeTFF()
QTGMC( Preset="Slower", TR0=2,  NoiseProcess=1,  GrainRestore=0.2, Sigma=10.0, Sharpness=0.6 )
Deen()
RemoveGrain(mode=2, modeU=2, modeV=2)
ColorYUV(levels="PC->TV") #is this needed. IMHO it looks lighter and better
Letterbox(12,12,12,12)
Am I on the right track and is there any hardware that could improve the picture? New video camera?

If you had a video looking like this. How would you attack it?

Before I encode it for DVD, should I interlace the video again or not? Or only change FPS?

Code:
AssumeTFF.SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,0,3).Weave() # in avisynth
For encoding I have tried QuEnc (CBR 8000kbps, HQ, Interlaced), TMPGenc demo(did not manage to open avs or vdr files. Even after all the different tips I found here and on google) and avidemux (mpeg2enc CBR 8000kbps interlaced) for test the videos on the TV and it looks good most of the time.

I can upload 40frame sample clip of the different clips above (from 19mb to almost 25mb. So a couple of .zip files at 16mb. for each clip) if it helps.

____

Staff Notes:
Related post on Avisynth/filtering here: Capture 8mm cassettes workflow advice
Advice on new/better 8mm camera here: Best camera for playing 8mm videos? (Sony Video8/Hi8 formats)


This question has been split from another post or thread. This was done in order to address the topic more in depth, make it easier to find via forum searches, as well as prevent the other post/thread from going too far off-topic. Please continue this part of the conversation here. Thanks for understanding our tech Q&A policies.



Attached Images
File Type: jpg kasset_2_original.jpg (52.3 KB, 126 downloads)
File Type: jpg kasset_2_original_bob.jpg (51.3 KB, 125 downloads)
File Type: jpg kasset_2_QTGMC.jpg (184.4 KB, 125 downloads)

Last edited by lordsmurf; 03-21-2012 at 11:13 PM. Reason: Split two topics into two separate threads. :) -LS
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  #2  
03-18-2012, 09:42 PM
tomr tomr is offline
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Here is a clip of the captured video. Unprocessed. Huffyuv.


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File Type: avi 2_original_huffyuv.avi (14.43 MB, 18 downloads)
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  #3  
03-21-2012, 11:03 PM
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I feel as if part of the original question has been lost here.

Therefore, the "get a better camera" advice has been split to its own dedicated post.
Read that half of the conversation here: Best camera for playing 8mm videos? (Sony Video8/Hi8 formats)

_______

Getting back to the filtering aspect: I would not deinterlace.

While QTGMC is excellent, it's still best to leave interlaced footage as is, when the viewing device is a traditional TV/DVD (or Blu-ray) type of setup. That's an extra time-consuming step that will lose quality more than anything else.

Your third image in the first post, labeled as "QTGMC, deen, removegrain", seems to have lost contrast. That's not good. It generally means that a bad colorspace conversion has gone on.

Another item worth noting is that deinterlacing can sometimes make perceived grain noise increase, thereby reducing overall quality. Yet another reason to leave interlaced footage as interlaced, when possible.

-- merged --

You need to use the CNR filter (chrome noise reduction) in Avisynth. Though Video8 and Hi8 don't generally suffer much chroma noise, it happens during underexposures, as is the case in your sample images.

Code:
Cnr2("xoo",4,5,255) # remove chroma banding noise, wide UV setting
I'll look to add all of the Avisynth materials to the site this week and/or next week. We're a bit behind schedule on some new site content and updates. What has been put together is exactly what you'll need.

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  #4  
03-22-2012, 08:08 PM
tomr tomr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
I feel as if part of the original question has been lost here.

Therefore, the "get a better camera" advice has been split to its own dedicated post.
Read that half of the conversation here: Best camera for playing 8mm videos? (Sony Video8/Hi8 formats)

_______

Getting back to the filtering aspect: I would not deinterlace.

While QTGMC is excellent, it's still best to leave interlaced footage as is, when the viewing device is a traditional TV/DVD (or Blu-ray) type of setup. That's an extra time-consuming step that will lose quality more than anything else.

Your third image in the first post, labeled as "QTGMC, deen, removegrain", seems to have lost contrast. That's not good. It generally means that a bad colorspace conversion has gone on.

Another item worth noting is that deinterlacing can sometimes make perceived grain noise increase, thereby reducing overall quality. Yet another reason to leave interlaced footage as interlaced, when possible.

Thanks, I will leave it interlaced.

Looking forward to the new material But if I may ask, what's best doing in avisynth and what's best doing in virtualdub today? I see the cnr2 filter is based on the CNR filter in virtualdub. And what de-noise filters are best to use with interlaced video?
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  #5  
03-23-2012, 02:14 AM
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VirtualDub's chroma noise filters should not be used -- way too aggressive. You'll get ghosting ("mouse trails") on your videos.

Most NR filters work equally well with interlaced and progressive footage. There's are so many out there that it would be time consuming to try and make up a detailed list -- especially since so many of them are niche filters that have been shared (i.e., useless for most videos most of the time). Pretty much all of the typical standard NR filters are going to be fine in either domain.

The biggest issue is not overdoing it. Your third example above ("QTGMC, deen, removegrain.") has wiped out not only noise, but detail. The picture has become plastic. When a little more time presents itself, we'll download your clip and run it through Avisynth tests, and then post back some suggestions. (One of the benefits of being a Premium Member.)

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  #6  
03-23-2012, 11:36 PM
tomr tomr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kpmedia View Post
VirtualDub's chroma noise filters should not be used -- way too aggressive. You'll get ghosting ("mouse trails") on your videos.

Most NR filters work equally well with interlaced and progressive footage. There's are so many out there that it would be time consuming to try and make up a detailed list -- especially since so many of them are niche filters that have been shared (i.e., useless for most videos most of the time). Pretty much all of the typical standard NR filters are going to be fine in either domain.

The biggest issue is not overdoing it. Your third example above ("QTGMC, deen, removegrain.") has wiped out not only noise, but detail. The picture has become plastic. ....
Okey. I have tried many filters and I see I can get 'blind' if I keep at it to long. So I will try to do small periods at the time and come back with fresh eyes after a couple of hours
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  #7  
09-14-2012, 09:19 AM
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Then I have manage to get a Sony hi8 TRV camera with TBC, DNR and s-video Have done some small capture tests and it looks like most, if not all chroma noise is gone. There is still almost the same analog grain/noise that before which I have found MDegrain2i2 or fft3dfilter or a combo of the two handles good most of the time.

If you see on the picture bellow you can see a horizontal line going across the screen. This line is in different degree visible on several tapes as shown on picture or as a blue line in underexposed shoots.


For your information there are some noise filtering already on this image

Is there a way to correct this line? I have done some test with different filters, e.g. DeSpot, with out being able to detect the line.
Also if you see to the right in the picture there is some greening going on at the edge. Is there a way to correct that or is it best just to letterbox it away?

On another topic, when I capture should I use the capture filters/levels to adjust brightness, contrast, hue, sat and sharpness or should I leave it to the standard settings and do it after? I see that if I adjust the sharpness setting the noise are getting more visible in the capture. What is best, noise removal after capture or sharpening after capture?

My plan forward is when I have my avisynth script ready I will frame serve it to Avidemux and encode it for DVD.

Hope it is ok to continue on this thread even if it is starting to get old. Thanks


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  #8  
09-14-2012, 09:39 AM
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It's easy to make something like that overall worse. Generally speaking, it's damage on the tape, due to a previous camera or VCR scratching it in some way. I'd just leave it and live with it. These are just home movies, not something that'll be screened in front of mass audiences. While I do insist on having the best quality available, it's easy to become OCD over issues that ultimately won't matter to anybody (even yourself, when you go to watch it).

Proc amp usage really depends on a tape-by-tape decision. Sometimes it's fine, sometimes it's just better to alter scenes individually in software. Sometimes it's just a lost cause, or a nitpick and not worth bothering with. Remember to only adjust the color if your TV or computer monitor is calibrated, otherwise you're just "proc amping" it to more wrong settings.

Your chroma is offset from the luma. Fix it with this Avisynth script:
Code:
AVISource("c:\video.avi")
ConvertToYV12()
ChromaShift(C=6) # shift chroma right by 6 pixels
... and you may need to adjust the setting some, to get it perfectly aligned. (Adjust two pixels at a time, +/-)

The image gets sharper, too, when chroma is properly on top of the luma!

It's your old thread, on the same topic, so the bump is appropriate.

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  #9  
09-14-2012, 03:01 PM
tomr tomr is offline
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Ok, I think I will not do to much about the lines. Anyway I had a look on a capture of the same tape from the old camera and compared to the test capture I did on the Sony. See attached video and picture.

error2.jpg

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It looks to me that the capture from the Sony camera (to the left) shows the line better in some situations like the one in the video. Almost like ghosting along the line. Could this be because of the tbc and dnr in the camera? I will do a new test capture later or tomorrow to test it, but which of them are most likely the cause? dnr?

Thank you for the answers on the other questions as well, I will play around with the chroma offset.
My monitors are calibrated with a Spyder4 so I hope I should get a good enough color rendering.



Last edited by tomr; 09-14-2012 at 03:05 PM. Reason: typo
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  #10  
09-14-2012, 03:20 PM
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If you're using MVDegrain in post, I'd advice against enabling camera DNR because it will destroy temporal information and "burn in" the grain and leave MVDegrain with less to work with.
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  #11  
09-15-2012, 07:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juhok View Post
If you're using MVDegrain in post, I'd advice against enabling camera DNR because it will destroy temporal information and "burn in" the grain and leave MVDegrain with less to work with.
Ok, I will do a test of it. The videos above do not have any processing done other then in camera.
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  #12  
12-26-2012, 09:16 PM
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Hi again.

I have noticed I get ringing/halos artifacts (I think it is called) around edges and in the faces on people in some scenes. It is quite noticeable on edges between light and dark colors. I have encoded some tests and burned it on dvds and it is still(if not more) noticeable on the tv.

I have tried some different avisynth scripts without much luck. For example tried HQDering, but it looks like it interferes with the interlacing, is it?

How do you normally tackle this? I know it may be a little nit picking, but I am a perfectionist and curious of nature so even if I decide to leave it and not be bothered with it I would want to know how to remove it

I also wanted to show some comparisons of the difference between the original camera and the one I bought.

The screen grabs are from the raw captures, copied from vdub.

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And I hope you and all your loved ones are having a happy holiday season

edit: I hope the before/after images function are working.


Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1_oldcam.jpg (102.8 KB, 80 downloads)
File Type: jpg 1_sony.jpg (100.1 KB, 78 downloads)
File Type: jpg 2_old.jpg (497.4 KB, 77 downloads)
File Type: jpg 2_sony.jpg (455.5 KB, 78 downloads)
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  #13  
01-01-2013, 11:18 PM
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It really comes down to the camera on a nit pick level and that's really all it is.

Thanks,
-JMP
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  #14  
01-06-2013, 04:25 PM
tomr tomr is offline
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Thank you for the reply. I guess it is the camera image comparison you are referring to.

On the ringing or edge halo noise I think it maybe due to the sharpening filter on the capturing device (ATI600)? I will post a short clip to show it.
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  #15  
01-07-2013, 11:56 PM
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Just as a reminder, Premium Members can post clips. If you need help, instructions are at the top.

Thanks,
-JMP
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