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  #1  
05-18-2012, 12:12 PM
JLegnon JLegnon is offline
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I captured some Nintendo NES game play using a Canopus ADVC-55 and WinDV . What deinterlace filter should I use and is there anything else besides deinterlacing that should be done to the video with VirtualDub ?

But before you answer that question , I also have an ATI x800 video card thats all setup for recording NES videos thanks to you guys ,
heres the thread What Resolution ? Nintendo NES Game Play video capture (recording)

Will the end result using the Canopus/WinDV/VirtualDub method be no better than using the x800 ATI card and MMC ? Should I sell the Canopus and just use the x800 ATI card ?

The colors look better with the Canopus but the video is shaky , the x800 ATI videos are more rock solid looking and stable, no screen tears or anything weird.

Just trying to figure out what to do . If the Canopus can record a better video I'd like to use it but so far its been a pain and doesn't look as good as the x800 ATI card captures .

Thanks
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  #2  
05-19-2012, 09:28 PM
VideoTechMan VideoTechMan is offline
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Ah what memories...I got grounded a few times in my younger days for playing too much SMB..lol. I have an old VHS tape I have recorded all three SMB games.. And yes I still have all my original game consoles, including my original NES I got gor Christmas in '89.

If you have a rock solid setup with the ATI video and its stable, I would stick with that. If you are recording the game with ATI and using the Huffyuv codec, then what you are getting is pretty much the raw signal with no modification. The Canopus I think slightly modifies the signal plus its recording to DV format which is compressed in 4:1:1 sampling.

As for the hard drive "Windows Limit" you should set the software to remove the limit to where you can have unlimited recording time. If your hard drive was FAT32 formatted it will impose the 4GB limit per file. But I don't think that may apply in your case.

I have the ATI 8500DV card so I will be running my tests on it soon with VirtualDub.
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  #3  
05-19-2012, 10:46 PM
JLegnon JLegnon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VideoTechMan View Post
Ah what memories...
Some of my favorite memories involve playing NES too much as well and thats why I'm still playing it 27 years later .

Thanks for the advice . Thats interesting about the Canopus modifying the signal . Maybe it just doesn't work good with the NES video format , with the shaking picture and screen tears . The colors do look good and warm though . I was thinking maybe there were filters that would fix it but its probably a conflict with the NES video .

Looks like the ATI is the best way to go . Thanks , I'll now be selling this Canopus ADVC - 55 if anybody is interested .
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  #4  
05-20-2012, 12:03 AM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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Understand the Negatives of DV Conversion:

DV video essentially does two things...

1. Throws away 50% of color data: On converted video (as opposed to video shot with a DV camera), DV conversion throws away half of the color signal. It's gone. Color that used to be 4:2:2 is now 4:1:1, where the last two numbers represent chroma/color. The remaining video is more soft/blurry and lacking in color detail. Some definition hounds will point out that the DV is "sampled", and not "thrown out", further arguing with theory that all data should be retained. However, the theory is wrong when observed with actual video data, as opposed to viewed as pure numerical equations. (Sorry, but math cannot explain visual art.)

2. Data compression: The data is compressed 5:1, with often allows block noise and other artifacts. Granted, MPEG-2 does the same thing, but DV is a fixed datarate, therefore CBR video. MPEG-2 at least has VBR options, to increase/decrease bitrate as needed. High bitrate MPEG-2 and DV are almost indistinguishable, excluding the slightly lower color fidelity of DV. (I'm assuming MPEG-2 for DVD-Video, which is specified as 4:2:0. MPEG-2 can use quite a few colorspaces on non-DVD formats.)

Canopus DV vs ATI AVI:

The conversations on DV vs ___ are generally full of variables, in terms of "Which Should I Use?"

In this scenario, the DV converter would be less desirable, given the color-rich, fast-moving content of a video game.

The ATI card is an excellent card, so it's not a matter of good hardware (DV box) vs bad hardware (cheap capture cards), as you'll often find. And indeed, that scenario is what gave rise to the mythical coveting of Canopus ADVC cards as "excellent" some 5-10 years ago, amongst hobby users on hobby video sites.

Canopus has better color?

The "better" color you're seeing on the Canopus is probably the same false response consumers give to shiny TV sets -- you like cooked color, as opposed to accurate color. DV conversion, and especially Canopus DV converters, tend to cook the hell out of chroma, leaving you with deeper-than-black blacks (even with the correct IRE setting), and color contrast so emphasized that it's started to bleed. Thought I have seen some Canopus boxes under-saturate color, too. Neither scenarios are ideal.

Deinterlace?

Do NOT deinterlace! This is a very destructive process. The only proper scenario for deinterlacing is when you'll be forcing interlaced-domain content to be viewed on a progressive-only viewing device. Streaming video, as shown on websites like Youtube, is one such scenario. If you must deinterlace, use the QTGMC filter in Avisynth.

##

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  #5  
05-20-2012, 12:17 AM
VideoTechMan VideoTechMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JLegnon View Post
Some of my favorite memories involve playing NES too much as well and thats why I'm still playing it 27 years later .

Thanks for the advice . Thats interesting about the Canopus modifying the signal . Maybe it just doesn't work good with the NES video format , with the shaking picture and screen tears . The colors do look good and warm though . I was thinking maybe there were filters that would fix it but its probably a conflict with the NES video .

Looks like the ATI is the best way to go . Thanks , I'll now be selling this Canopus ADVC - 55 if anybody is interested .
Well game console video is usually odd anyway. I know I had recorded my entire game of FF7 on the Playstation to Hi8 tapes. Playing them back in the camcorder with the TBC on cause constant jumping, but turned off played just fine. Weird I know.

I also had recorded to tape the Sonic the Hedgehog games and a few others. I actually want to do a new recording of Zelda Ocarina of Time on the N64 since I enjoy that game so much. Now that I got the S-Video cable for it I will try to record it in the best quality possible.

Off topic a bit I know but hey, you may just get me to get my consoles out and play again.
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  #6  
05-20-2012, 04:54 AM
volksjager volksjager is offline
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a better option may be just to play the NES games on right your PC and capture them using WM Capture or similar.
a modern PC plays them way better than the original NES anyway (no way a 8-bit Nes game will slow down a Quad-Core)
just use a NES emulator - i use FCE Ultra
the ROMs are all over the internet free

for NES use FCE Ultra
for SNES use ZSNES or SNES9X
for Genesis use Fusion
for N64 use Project64
for WII use Dolphin (you need a very fast PC for WII games)
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  #7  
05-20-2012, 05:36 AM
VideoTechMan VideoTechMan is offline
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Hmm, except for the Wii, I have all those emulators you mention, except for NES I have always used JNES. Never tried FCE, will have to look into that. Also have the PS and PS2 emulators also and Atari 2600.

How well does WM Capture work....never thought about using that to capture game footage. Only advantage to having the original carts is the saved data on my games are still intact whereas on the emulators I would have to start over, which is good.
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  #8  
05-20-2012, 08:10 AM
volksjager volksjager is offline
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on the emulators you can also save the game anywhere and anytime which can be nice.

i use WM Capture all the time for capturing streaming Greyhound races from the internet - it works good

i never have tried it for video games -
as i have no interest in capturing video game footage - (i play them not watch them)
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  #9  
05-20-2012, 11:01 AM
JLegnon JLegnon is offline
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I clicked thanks for this excellent post explaining everything about DV vs ATI AVI ! Awesome ,

Theres alot of artifacts and other crap with the Canopus and it made the video look really bad . Now I know why and I'm for sure getting rid of it .


Thanks for the help !!
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  #10  
05-20-2012, 11:07 AM
JLegnon JLegnon is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volksjager View Post
a better option may be just to play the NES games on right your PC and capture them using WM Capture or similar.
a modern PC plays them way better than the original NES anyway (no way a 8-bit Nes game will slow down a Quad-Core)
just use a NES emulator - i use FCE Ultra
the ROMs are all over the internet free

for NES use FCE Ultra
for SNES use ZSNES or SNES9X
for Genesis use Fusion
for N64 use Project64
for WII use Dolphin (you need a very fast PC for WII games)
Emulators are cool but I'm weird and like playing on the real thing . The controls always feel very slightly off , delayed , with the emulators , I don't know why . Capturing video from a Old Dusty NES just seems more special since its the real thing .
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  #11  
05-20-2012, 11:36 AM
volksjager volksjager is offline
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wow - if anything i think the controls are better.
you can use a modern ergonomic controller too

i understand the charm on the original unit
im just saying i think you will get better quality captures playing them on a PC
the NES only has crappy RF or composite analog connections to boot
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  #12  
05-20-2012, 12:27 PM
VideoTechMan VideoTechMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by volksjager View Post
wow - if anything i think the controls are better.
you can use a modern ergonomic controller too

i understand the charm on the original unit
im just saying i think you will get better quality captures playing them on a PC
the NES only has crappy RF or composite analog connections to boot
I played SMB on the emulator with the PS3 controller and it was very responsive with no lag.

The RF connection with the NES obviously is the worst quality, but for its time in the mid-80's its all most people had for video connection. Composite in those days was king somewhat and not many consumer TV's then had composite inputs. I think its possible to get an S-Video adapter for that connection but not sure. Either way composite for that era was miles ahead of the old RF connection.

I have all my ROMs from my games on my unraid server so can call them up anytime. But still have the original carts in their original boxes (and still works).
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  #13  
05-20-2012, 07:11 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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If you want more then composite video out of a NES, it requires some major surgery. You have to get a RGB capable PPU out of a Playchoice 10 arcade machine and swap it in. The good thing is one you have RGB, you can down convert to other video formats if needed.
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  #14  
05-25-2012, 11:12 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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I usually play NES on an original hacked XBOX, because of the ability to save state. I can't stay up for multiple days straight during winter/summer holidays anymore! So I can play for 30 minutes, save, quit, and then come back to it later.

There's also some nifty create-your-own-cheat-code features. Game Genie on steroids.

If you want to hack the controller to work on another console or a PC, it can be done. There's a lot of guides online for such things. I used to have a guide that showed how to use an SNES controller on a hacked PS1 running SNES9x, for example. It was a high tech operation involving paper clips and duct tape, if I remember correctly.

But I do agree about the nostalgia. Emulators vs original hardware -- it's not the same.

Head in sand, I don't care, not the same.

If I wanted to record game play, I'd probably use the XBOX.

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  #15  
05-25-2012, 11:40 PM
NJRoadfan NJRoadfan is offline
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I actually use a USB adapter and a Super Nintendo controller for emulation play. I still have my asciipad with the turbo and slow switches.
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  #16  
05-29-2012, 09:40 PM
Belmont Belmont is offline
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Oh man, my brothers used to record boss battles and speedruns all the time. Sly Cooper, Super Mario Bros., Sonic the Hedgehog, and other games that started with S . I've been thinking of converting those tapes, because there are some neat shortcuts and good references on those gameplays (like the locations of the Special Zones in Sonic & Knuckles, for instances), but the strange video standards used by certain consoles has scared me off. I do remember that a lot of the SNES footage strangely came out Black & White with intermittent color, regardless of game (SMW and Mario All-Stars) or plugs (composite and Ch3/4 RF). Did the SNES have some sort of copy-control system that did that to video?

Anyway, don't deinterlace for preservation vids, but do deinterlace for YT vids and streaming.
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