Quantcast Workflow for Hi8 Conversion to h.264-10bit video - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
09-01-2012, 02:31 AM
tiagodamian tiagodamian is offline
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Hello,
My name is Tiago Damian and i come from brazil,
i have been ressearching and digitalfaq proved to be the best forum in help, in depth of answers and kindness, so i registrated and intend to become a full time member.

first things first,
i have read Understanding sources http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/vid...nd-sources.htm
which followed me in a lot of ressearch about the camera my hi8 tapes were recorded, formats and everything in between.
I am an engineer student, related to electrical engineering so i already know a little bit.

It's a Sony CCd- TRV-373br records in NTSC and plays in Brazil format, PAL-M.

This camera unfortunately it's not anymore in my hands, it has been stolen.

I have already read the guide for serching to pay-for-the-conversion job,
but as for brazil, every single conversion guy i found has an fixated price,
and no clues how it's done, whats the quality..

so i understand that in a final point it will come to something like Hardware required to transfer home videos to archival DVDs?

Quote:
It really comes back to this: Are you prepared to spend at least $5,000 on this? (minimum)
You have in this site an great great resource for serching for VHS tranfer and everything, but as for 8mm tape, things are starting to move to something How is video stored on Hi8 cassettes?

on 26 january, this year.

i do understand that informtaion put on 2006-to today are realiabe because things havent changed to much.

this is my road so far, and now my questions start.

My situation:
No camera, win 7 x64 windows with asus mobo, intel e5200 processor and 6gb RAM.
will get an 2 tb black armor western digital for this project.

I mounted my computer, and i do undertand why you praise ati Best ATI All In Wonder card alternatives, to transfer tapes to digital?
as it best option.
but as for the level i am,
i dont see diference between
Blackmagic Design Intensity USB 3.0
AN pinacle usb
or and BTx38 tree - conexant capture devices.

ASK: is it brutal the diference in frame drop between this sistems?

has anyone evalueted "pinnacle video transfer" ?
( i couldn't find an link for pinacle site it's all buggy these days)



I do understand that being recorded on a analog method, 4:2:2 NTSC, i should not do it, but i can't think a reason why putting this anlog tapes on 'firewire passtrough' wouldn't be a bad idea,
thereaby i ask for thoso who do video everyday..

ASK: in reality, how big is the loss for going trough DV and firewire? how big is the image quality loss?


At this point i realise my post is being big, big, big, and not to much diferent from other seeking help, even if i try to base my self in quotes and standards.

At this point, because i will have to make a comitment and buy an player, i am considering, to simplify this long post, the following options:

1)an ebay bought sony camcorder with TBC > Blackmagic > HuffYUV > x264 -trought handbrake GUI-*
2)sony camcorder > firewire > PC
3)an sony hi8 player > external TBC from BH foto > blackmagic capture > HuffYUV > x264
http://www.ebay.com/itm/SONY-EV-C100...item3a79229e38

i have seen only one post comparing pro sony player with camcorders, does anyone has experience - knows a bottomline?

ASK: from these three options/views wich one is best?


--//--

* i have already ressearched teotecital troughtput for this codec on my machine, and seem that i should do Overclock. anyways.
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  #2  
09-04-2012, 05:55 PM
tomr tomr is offline
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Hello Tiago.

I am in the same situation as you and are preparing to transferring video 8 tapes.

To answer your last question from what I have learned through my reading here and on teh interweb, the last alternative is the best one if the VCR also has an built in TBC. Good quality (Sony) HI8 camcorder or a HI8 VCR -> External TBC -> Capture card -> Huffyuv ->x264.

I have been looking to buy a AVT-8710, but I have been on the fence since it has been some bad units around.
If a external TBC is really needed in all cases I am not sure, I guess it depend on the signal quality the VCR/camcorder outputs and how picky the capture card is on the input signal.

Hope it helped some, the rest of your questions I will leave for some one more qualified to answer.

Tom.

Last edited by tomr; 09-04-2012 at 06:09 PM. Reason: typo
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  #3  
09-07-2012, 09:28 PM
tiagodamian tiagodamian is offline
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Hi Tomr, thanks for your insides;
I am in the same position as yours,
underdtanding eletronics and knowing that the knwoledge of doing the tranference service everyday is realy necessary, i will wait for an expert reply.

I do think the same as you do, but there is not a single comparison for quality between the diverse capabilities in tranfering video.

A good sony camera maybe not be accesibble on Brazil, so i am starting to ressearch about NVIDIA CUDA remedy to remove noise and things from captured video.

Thanks for your reply.
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  #4  
09-07-2012, 10:14 PM
juhok juhok is offline
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No-one has answered yet so I'll cherry pick some things. That is a long post to digest and answer depends on many things. Like what's your definition of good video quality and what is acceptable loss. I have probably near 1000 hours of Video8/Hi8 work behind me with 2x Hi8 decks and one camera. All PAL.

- Hi8 to 10bit H264? 10bit will not gain you nothing but filesize.
- Weird selection of capture devices. I'd avoid BT x78, PQ is not optimal. Don't know about Pinnacle.
- Framedrop with your system? Not if something is not broken.
- NTSC DV is 4:1:1 sampled, it'll bottleneck the quality of your capture considerably and is way out of line with "10bit thinking". I've also seen audio and video levels clipping using DV output on some cameras (but not from analog).
- There's no bottom line in my opinion with deck vs good camera. I could write a long post about this but in short it all depends. In any case for the best end result you need to post process the raw video.
- It's my experience that these Sony decks and cameras with TBC output a very stable signal. It's possible to have pretty decent capture without external TBC even with sensitive device like Blackmagic. For example I just captured directly from camera 90 mins of video with only about dozen drops, found in scene changes.
- Atleast the PAL version of EV-S9000 has integrated TBC+"Frame sync" so it doesn't need external TBC ever.
- Don't overclock your capture system.
- Askings "what's best" is asking for trouble. Many paths exist.
- What are you willing to pay? For example my Video8/Hi8 setup would be in the 3000-4000€ range, all parts of the system included (and repairs, calibration equipment, etc). Obviously not something many people would get but it's difficult to suggest anything if budget is not defined.
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  #5  
09-09-2012, 12:25 AM
tiagodamian tiagodamian is offline
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Thanks for the answer juhok,
I know it's a long post.
In my journey in searching this foruns i have seen a lot of people to come, search a little, post a single question and go away happy.

it seems to me that life isn't that simple.

FOR CLARYFING IN THE START: it's 8mm tape NTSC ANALOG VIDEO.

Quote:
- Hi8 to 10bit H264? 10bit will not gain you nothing but filesize.
It seemed to me the logical conclusion when converting formats to go as far i can go.
h264 8bit versus h264 10bit is an old discussion, but 10 bit is designed to save space.
with h264 i am expecting less than 1 gb/hour of video.

for optimal video quality, what the codec you have been using?
(letīs stop using best, that seems confusing)


Quote:
- Weird selection of capture devices.
it's just the options i've been searching in foruns, and in Amazon.
I have seen people saying a lot about that all-in-wonder from ati.

For now, my best shot is black magic @ 190.00 uS$.


lets coment two quotes together.

Quote:
- NTSC DV is 4:1:1 sampled, it'll bottleneck the quality of your capture considerably and is way out of line with "10bit thinking".
- There's no bottom line in my opinion with deck vs good camera.
Again, thank for you expertise, you time to carefully reply, and help me.
these two things you said, narrowed down my problem a lot.

bottom line of you post: buy an decent camera, or decent player, and a blackmagic.

We may discuss it later when we discuss budget, but what are the systems you got, and what would you recomend?


Quote:
- Askings "what's best" is asking for trouble. Many paths exist.
huum, let's make that more clear.
for 8mm tapes there isn't a shot coming version of the tutorials that are available for the VHS systems.
yes, many paths exist, but when you only have one shot at buying, in terms of quality,
what's the diference between an sony camcorder easily controlled by firewire and an expensive set of hardware plus 8 thousand hous of edition/post service?

Quote:
- What are you willing to pay? For example my Video8/Hi8 setup would be in the 3000-4000€ range, all parts of the system included (and repairs, calibration equipment, etc). Obviously not something many people would get but it's difficult to suggest anything if budget is not defined.
I have started my first posting quoting an guy saying: how much are you wiling to pay?

so for now: i know the diference between pinaccle -US$ 34 and black magic - US$ 190
i chose blackmagic.

I have from 200 - 600 usd for camera, or player.
if TBC is needed, buddet can be aproved for this extra.
this come from what i have seen in ebay.
if diferent budged would allow an diferent quality of capture i would be very happy to consider.


Quote:
all parts of the system included (and repairs, calibration equipment, etc)
hen you say repairs, its used parts for fixing your equipment?
what would be calibration equipment?

Thank you so much again for your post,
as i haven't seen in 8mm area i am currently thinking of begining an 'tutorial and agregator of links' post.
based on what i believe from computers, and based on what i have already researched.
i don't know what would be the position from staff about this.

i am so so sorry for my poor english, besides i have google chrome verification, grammar sometimes fail me, and if some phrases didn't sounded correctly, i would like to give you my apologize.
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  #6  
09-09-2012, 08:51 AM
juhok juhok is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tiagodamian
It seemed to me the logical conclusion when converting formats to go as far i can go.
h264 8bit versus h264 10bit is an old discussion, but 10 bit is designed to save space.
with h264 i am expecting less than 1 gb/hour of video.

for optimal video quality, what the codec you have been using?
(letīs stop using best, that seems confusing)
There are some real benefits to 10bit, but Hi8 analog doesn't fall to this category. Even if there would be - which I don't say there is - "extra bits" in the source, all old TBCs operate in the 8bit domain and quantize the signal at 8bit digital, then convert back to analog.

For my personal stuff I use UTVideo lossless codec at 8bit 4:2:0. Because all my tapes are VHS or DV, 4:2:2 is unnecessary. For Hi8 4:2:2 may or may not capture additional chroma detail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiagodamian
it's just the options i've been searching in foruns, and in Amazon.
I have seen people saying a lot about that all-in-wonder from ati.

For now, my best shot is black magic @ 190.00 uS$.
ATI AIW is well respected at this site. I have no experience with it. From what I've read ATI AIW will need external TBC to stabilize the signal to avoid framedrops so it's in the same situation as Blackmagic regarding drops. My experience is with Blackmagic Studio card and before that BT878. I believed too much of the hype from 5-10 years ago and made a mistake and got BT878 which ended up being a pain in the ass. Next week fedex is bringing us new Ensemble Designs converter which should be a noticeable upgrade from BM but also 5x the price (and benefits may not be worth the buck if only doing lo-fi conversions like VHS/8mm). I can comment more on that later.

By the way you can get used Blackmagic Intensity / etc from eBay for half the price - about $100 seems to be the going rate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiagodamian
Again, thank for you expertise, you time to carefully reply, and help me.
these two things you said, narrowed down my problem a lot.

bottom line of you post: buy an decent camera, or decent player, and a blackmagic.

We may discuss it later when we discuss budget, but what are the systems you got, and what would you recomend?
I've chosen not to disclose all my trade secrets in one post. I've given advise and hints at many forums regarding specific problems or hardware but I don't want to lay it all out in a list form at once. One reason is that I don't want competition to mimic my workflow (be it for real or fake - latter being very bad for customers) and second reason being that I don't want to create a "cult following" around certain PAL gear and thus raising the prices for the gear I use.

That said, and considering your budget, if you have a lot of tapes my gut feeling would be to recommend NTSC equivalent of EV-S9000 which is mechanically excellent, easier to clean/repair than camera, easier to operate, made for semi-pro use and doesn't need external TBC which will save you $100-200 (and external consumer TBCs affect the picture quality negatively more or less). PQ wise it's a bit different than cameras - to be honest I've only used a few cameras and an one EV-S9000 - I could make a comparison later but I doubt it's usefulness regarding your situation in NTSC domain. It could be said that S9000 has a bit softer picture and a lot less noise, even when noise reduction is turned off. This could be compared to the JVC versus Panasonic SVHS debate of denoising pros/cons. There seems to be some different options for NTSC than PAL in 8mm video so you need to do your own research further on that. When reading manuals/specs, the magic word for the high-end decks is "Frame Sync" - this will eliminate the need for external TBC.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiagodamian
huum, let's make that more clear.
for 8mm tapes there isn't a shot coming version of the tutorials that are available for the VHS systems.
yes, many paths exist, but when you only have one shot at buying, in terms of quality,
what's the diference between an sony camcorder easily controlled by firewire and an expensive set of hardware plus 8 thousand hous of edition/post service?
Camcorder with TBC can be almost as expensive as a deck. At least in PAL land. Expensive set would be having them both and them some, to be ready for every possible scenario. Like with VHS, one device will never be optimal for all source material. For hobbyist use there are a lot of diminishing returns regarding hardware. For example there's a difference between $100 and $1000 TBC but it's not probably worth it for many to pay more for something that many people wouldn't even notice. Experience is priceless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiagodamian
when you say repairs, its used parts for fixing your equipment?
what would be calibration equipment?

Thank you so much again for your post,
as i haven't seen in 8mm area i am currently thinking of begining an 'tutorial and agregator of links' post.
based on what i believe from computers, and based on what i have already researched.
i don't know what would be the position from staff about this.
Repairs is repairing my gear. I've spent a lot of money to repairs. Everything breaks eventually, and when buying used stuff from eBay it's usually sooner than later. I think I've used more money on S9000 repairs than it's actual buying price. Nowdays I need to ship 8mm video gear to Germany because there ain't no-one in my country that could fix them properly. Some years ago I calculated that I spent more than 2000€ in repairs in one year (all my video gear combined). After that I haven't done the math. Calibration equipment is tools, calibration tape and tutoring from a mechanic. Cleaning materials are also costly. 8mm cutting blocks for broken tape repair are costly. Everything will cost and it adds up. If you're doing a single project for your own tapes, you can skip a lot of this.

I think you shouldn't begin a 8mm tutorial just yet as you're still just "learning to walk". How about a diary/blog of your progress along the way? I don't see much of these and I think they're more useful for casual reader than a tutorial which would be very limited in scope. Just my opinion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiagodamian
i am so so sorry for my poor english, besides i have google chrome verification, grammar sometimes fail me, and if some phrases didn't sounded correctly, i would like to give you my apologize.
No problem. I use dictionary and google all the time when writing. Also the forum software warns me all the time about wrong spelling.
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  #7  
09-09-2012, 03:53 PM
tomr tomr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juhok View Post
..... How about a diary/blog of your progress along the way? I don't see much of these and I think they're more useful for casual reader than a tutorial which would be very limited in scope. Just my opinion.
......
I think this could be helpful for many thinking of transferring there tapes. I have been reading a lot of forum posts and there are very few threads following a project from start to finish. You see many people asking questions in the beginning, but it ends after a while. Thats why I will try and update and ask questions in the same thread I started as I progress with my project (however slow it is ).
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  #8  
09-13-2012, 10:34 AM
leobigfield leobigfield is offline
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Hello guys! Hello tiagodamian!

I'm working on a capture and restoring video project and while surfing through google for some info i found this topic. While there is no Hi8 here (most VHS, U-MATIC and BETACAM), the rest of the capture set should be very similar so i think i will just read the topic for some help and also try to help as well.

First contribution is an advice: don't forget that the blackmagic USB 3.0 is quite picky with the computer's hardware and there are tons of people on the internet that are complaining about it... It just work on a few X58 motherboards...

P.S.: Hello Brazilian compatriot!
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  #9  
09-13-2012, 01:28 PM
juhok juhok is offline
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Regarding Blackmagic Intensity Shuttle USB3 problems with chipset.. yes and no. It will work on other chipsets than X58 but it is indeed picky and requires detective work before buying one. I would rather recommend Intensity Pro, Intensity Shuttle for Thunderbolt or Intensity Extreme. Used Decklink Studio cards should also be reasonably priced.

Blackmagic will work nicely with Betacam component outputs (assuming the deck is populated with TBC cards). Y/C from SVHS deck thru external TBC will also yield good results. With U-Matic you're a bit out of luck because it's composite signal. Blackmagic cards have poor comb filters.
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  #10  
09-13-2012, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juhok View Post
With U-Matic you're a bit out of luck because it's composite signal. Blackmagic cards have poor comb filters.
Use a JVC S-VHS VCR -- even a lower end 3600-3800 or 4600-4800 series unit. Those are rather cheap.
There's boatload of them on eBay for as little as $30: http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=...+3800&_sacat=0

All it's going to do is pass-through a signal, using the y/c filter in the process -- not play tapes.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- For sale in the marketplace: TBCs, workflows, capture cards, VCRs
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