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  #1  
03-23-2014, 01:05 PM
rappy rappy is offline
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I have been reading this site for many years, and have made many attempts to convert my nearly 150 family videos, with no luck. Either because I run out of time, or out of patience! I have plenty of hardware. Have a capture pc with windows XP, 7500 AIW capture card and all the software recommended on this site. Needless to say, I think I have a set up that at least for me is acceptable.

GOAL- to capture the tapes to DVD (back up# 1), then burn the DVD's to a hard drive (back up # 2), then save the files to a synology NAS DS xxxxx (waiting on 2014 models before I decide), and stream to TV and other devices.

PROCESS FLOW- JVC HR-S9900u > TBC 1000 > Signvideo Proc Amp > Berhinger Xenyx 1002 > lite on 5005 DVD recorder (using 1 hr setting)

I am using the proc amp to apply mild adjustments to the luminance black, gain (brightness) and color saturation. I am using the mixer to remove (hide) hiss, or any other noise that I can hear. Basically I am making minor adjustments.

I am reviewing the DVD, on my Samsung 7500 60" hi def TV, and so far I am very happy with the results. They are more then expectable, considering up till now the tapes have been sitting in a closet (some as far back as 1985 (so many aunts & uncles no longer around).

I do have some concerns and questions. The DVD recorder is acting up. The door does not always close. It closes, then opens back up. I have to sometimes give the door a nudge to close it good. Also some times I have to open and close the door so that the drive can initialize or prepare the disk to record. I might have to open and close the drive a few times before it accepts it. Should I just continue to use the drive as is, and hope it can get the the "project" or do I take it to a service location (I am in the metro Detroit area).

Also, my captures do not have chapters. Can I add them once I save the files to a pc? Is it difficult?

Thanks in advance,

Rappy
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  #2  
03-26-2014, 11:38 PM
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lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
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I do something similar.
(1) Backup to discs
(2) ISO on HDD, connected to WDTV Live.
(3) ISO on HDD, archived off-site.

Same brand HDD. Reason for off-site dupes is related to local disaster plan, not drive failure.

Your workflow looks fine to me.

- good JVC VCR (with dynamic drum), part of 9600-9900 lineage
- good TBC
- good proc amp
- good mixer
- DVD recorder not *the best* (JVC) but still a good LSI unit

When using a proc amp, make sure the TV or computer monitor is calibrated. The Premium Member forum has some tools for that.

When it comes to DVD equipment, I just use it as long as possible. It may run fine for dozens, hundreds, or even thousands more discs -- just with a nuisance in/out issue. It's up to you. The drive may need replacing eventually is all. You've not describing any other problem, so the unit should be fine.

Is Detroit A ghost town these days? Did it really lose 50% of its population?

Chapters are made during authoring. The DVD recorder, of course, authors when finalized. When you dump to PC and edit, then re-author that's where you do it. Yes, it's easy. I use TMPGEnc Authoring Works for menu-less discs. It can make decent Blu-ray menus (and probably DVD menus) these days. It's not as bad as the old TMPGEnc DVD Author days.

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  #3  
03-31-2014, 11:44 PM
rappy rappy is offline
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I have a question. If I want to edit a file (DVD), I would use TMPGEnc Authoring Works then re-author. I think I understand that. If I only want to save the DVD's created by the DVD recorder onto my PC (as is), what is the best SW to do that? This is where I am a bit confused. Can I use image burn? Or is DVD Decrypter still a good tool? The goal is to save a copy of the DVD to a hard drive that will eventually be in a multi media NAS that I can stream to a TV or tablet. I'd like it to be simple, yet does not "degrade" the file or compress it any more then it might already be.

While I am slowly making progress in capturing the tapes from VCR to DVD recorder, I'd like to start saving the DVD's to my pc. I am going to install a fresh copy of windows 7 onto a SSD with a fresh WD red drive as the "archive" drive. Intel I7 processor, 16GB of RAM (if that makes a difference).

Thx
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  #4  
04-02-2014, 06:51 AM
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Use DVD Decrypter to decompile it, yes. Decrypter takes the badly-authored DVD recorder discs back to raw MPEG-2 files. (Understand that all DVD recorders are terrible at the authoring.)

Then you can use the MPEG2s to reauthor a nice disc, as well as seamless remove content. For example, to remove commercials, or the recorded junk before/after the video. Use Womble or another no-reencode MPEG editor.

I also author less these days, storing to MPEGs as data on networked hard drive, and using the DVD backup as data only. Though some items still need to be authored with nice menus!

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  #5  
04-03-2014, 11:32 PM
rappy rappy is offline
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I still have some questions (just want to get it right) regarding final output of all the tapes I am capturing. As mentioned earlier, one of my main goals is to have an end product that I can easily view and share. I plan on doing this by purchasing a Synology NAS. It has the functionality of a "video station" and " media server". It looks like one of the formats that it can use is MP4 (H.264). Womble DVD 5.0 looks to have the ability to convert to MP4. Will I see any additional "loss of image quality" by this conversion? Is their a better program to convert to MP4? So do I have this correct? I:

1. DVD Decrypter to decompile to MPEG-2 file (save to archive Hard Drive)
2. Use (copy of #1) the decompiled MPEG-2 files with Womble to either re author/ edit files and then convert to mp4 or skip the
reauthor and go direct to mp4 conversion and save to another hard drive for NAS.

Does this sound right?

Thx
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  #6  
04-30-2014, 12:48 AM
rappy rappy is offline
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We'll I am at nearly 100 DVD's so far, and have about 30 more VHS tapes to go. I am happy so far with the progress. I have not done anything with them. I am waiting to purchase my NAS to make sure I convert to the correct file type (MP4 I think will be the final outcome) that the NAS will play.

For the most part, I will be happy with the basic hardware adjustments I have already made, but for some tapes I might want to do some more software adjustments. I realize I loose some flexibility with the capture method I have chosen, but what are my options to do some minor software restoration? What is the proper work flow and software options?

Thanks again!
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  #7  
04-30-2014, 03:48 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rappy View Post
As mentioned earlier, one of my main goals is to have an end product that I can easily view and share. I plan on doing this by purchasing a Synology NAS. It has the functionality of a "video station" and " media server". It looks like one of the formats that it can use is MP4 (H.264).
You can easily share mp4 videos with others who have BluRay players capable of playing mp4. Non-mp4 players and those who don't own BD players will be out of luck.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rappy View Post
Womble DVD 5.0 looks to have the ability to convert to MP4. Will I see any additional "loss of image quality" by this conversion?
Yes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rappy View Post
Is their a better program to convert to MP4?
Not really. Re-encoding is lossy, period.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rappy View Post
1. DVD Decrypter to decompile to MPEG-2 file (save to archive Hard Drive)
Decompile to MPEG2? DVD is MPEG2.

It seems that capturing is done to lossy formats to begin with. Or do I mis-read your procedures? For additional editing (cut/join, etc.) you could at least use smart-rendering editors like TMPGEnc Smart Renderer, which handles mpeg and many h264 formats. Once you add filters and that sort of thing, you're into re-encoding as well as colorspace transitions, so no smart-renderer will help there.

With a couple of hundred tapes at stake, it's unlikely you'll be able to make quick work of additional enhancements. Re-encoding alone will consume time and effort. Best advice: gather the tapes you value most and keep them a while longer. Later, you'll be glad you still have them.



EDIT:

Oops, a small sentence somehow didn't get into my previous post. I hate laptop touchpads. Love the way they'll select entire paragraphs and delete them when you hit any key!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Decompile to MPEG2? DVD is MPEG2.
I'll add my own question into that reply: are you talking about decrypting retail DVD's for archiving? Home-made DVD's don't need decryption.
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  #8  
04-30-2014, 01:58 PM
rappy rappy is offline
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Sorry if I am using the incorrect terminology. They are all family home videos - nothing retail. Just trying to figure out what is the best way to get the DVD's (recorded from a JVC DR-M10) from disk to hard drive, and be able to "stream" from a Synology NAS to TV or tablet ect. (see post # 4).

thanks,

Rappy
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  #9  
04-30-2014, 02:55 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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A video programmed as a movie on DVD disk such as you mention does not have to be decrypted (there is no copy protection on home made DVD's). It is copied to another device. If these DVD's were recorded to your JVC DVD recorder and finalized to DVD disc, you can copy in one of two ways: (a) directly copy the entire VIDEO_TS folder and all of its contents to a drive storage unit, with each movie in its own titled folder. Or (b) you can combine the separate .VOB video files of a DVD disc into a single MPEG movie file (you will lose menus, subtitles, etc.) using a freebie such as VOB2MPG (http://www.videohelp.com/tools/VOB2MPG). Someone familiar with your NAS and the formats it can handle can advise which method would work for you.

You also mentioned using TMPGenc Authoring Works as an editor. TAW does has some simple cut/join smart-rendering available, but it's very limited and is not really an "editor". It's primarily an authoring program. There are any number of editors around; the freebies have only a few features and are mostly non-smart rendering. Most quality smart renderers are not free. I don't really know what you mean by "editing", but if you mean filtering and other complex work, there are no smart-rendering editors or processors that can do such processing without re-encoding your videos.

Home-made tapes have a lot of typical problems, regardless of the quality of the player (dropouts, rainbows, head-switching noise along the bottom of the frame, various types of stains and discoloration from tape aging, etc). If you're of a mind to repair those defects, it will take more than just an "editor" to do it, and such repairs require re-encoding. However it's too late to change the basic capture method, and most people wouldn't take that much trouble anyway. What you have captured to lossy DVD is as good as those captures will ever look without serious work. For some users, that falls short of possibilities. But for many others, it will do. It depends on your expectations.

Video compression isn't the same thing as running a video through WinZIP or RAR. Video encoding is entirely different.
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  #10  
05-01-2014, 05:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rappy View Post
Womble DVD 5.0 looks to have the ability to convert to MP4. Will I see any additional "loss of image quality" by this conversion? Is their a better program to convert to MP4? So do I have this correct? I:
Yes, there is better. Womble is not really a company known for its encoding/re-encoding quality. Womble is mostly good at editing, and it has some rudimentary authoring functions. When I used payware, I use MainConcept. When I use freeware, I use either AVI Demux or x264vfw inside of VirtualDub. So I'd suggest one of those methods.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rappy View Post
For the most part, I will be happy with the basic hardware adjustments I have already made, but for some tapes I might want to do some more software adjustments. I realize I loose some flexibility with the capture method I have chosen, but what are my options to do some minor software restoration? What is the proper work flow and software options?
You can restore from MPEG-2, but only for certain errors. It really depends. For example, both MPEG and AVI are fine for source, if you're using Avisynth to align chroma over luma. By contrast, MPEG is not good to further do NR, as MPEG can add it's own artifacts with MPEG -- especially the lower DVD-Video spec MPEG-2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
A video programmed as a movie on DVD disk such as you mention does not have to be decrypted (there is no copy protection on home made DVD's). It is copied to another device. If these DVD's were recorded to your JVC DVD recorder and finalized to DVD disc, you can copy in one of two ways: (a) directly copy the entire VIDEO_TS folder and all of its contents to a drive storage unit, with each movie in its own titled folder. Or (b) you can combine the separate .VOB video files of a DVD disc into a single MPEG movie file (you will lose menus, subtitles, etc.) using a freebie such as VOB2MPG.
No, don't do that!

VOB files are more than just MPEG, especially from DVD recorders. All VOBs, really. There can be all kinds of nasty side effects when you don't properly extract the video with an IFO tool like DVD Decrypter. Common ones are audio sync issues, problems at the VOB merge, and rejections by latter software that tries to (mid)read the VOB. Again, VOB is not MPEG. You can't just copy it. I wish it were this easy, but it's not.

Quote:
What you have captured to lossy DVD is as good as those captures will ever look without serious work. For some users, that falls short of possibilities. But for many others, it will do. It depends on your expectations.
... and the needs of the tape/video. It depends on the errors, more than anything else. Some can be fixed, even after multiple generations (analog or digital).

Quote:
Video compression isn't the same thing as running a video through WinZIP or RAR. Video encoding is entirely different.
Trivia: Huffyuv is based on the same principles as zip.

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  #11  
05-01-2014, 07:12 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
VOB files are more than just MPEG, especially from DVD recorders. All VOBs, really. There can be all kinds of nasty side effects when you don't properly extract the video with an IFO tool like DVD Decrypter. Common ones are audio sync issues, problems at the VOB merge, and rejections by latter software that tries to (mid)read the VOB. Again, VOB is not MPEG. You can't just copy it. I wish it were this easy, but it's not.
Yes, I understand what you're saying and I agree. The idea I tried to convey is that the contents of a home-made DVD disk can be copied to a hard drive as storage, and re-burned later as-is if needed. How NAS devices handle those copies it is up to the NAS, which is why I have zero confidence in them. As far as I know, VOB2MPG hasn't displayed problems -- I used it on two occasions without complaint, but it seemed like more trouble than just burning a dupe of the original DVD or reburning from HDD copies of entire VIDEO_TS folders. I have more faith in TMPGenc's video editors, which I've used countless times to extract VOB's recorded on DVD-R's. I'd suggest that the owner take your advice and expertise on the matter.

Frankly, I don't see the point in expecting all "sharing" parties to fiddle with NAS setups. I wouldn't dare try it with grandma.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
Trivia: Huffyuv is based on the same principles as zip.
True. ZIP, RAR, huffyuv, Lagarith, etc., are similar (I'd wager that the latter two are faster, but give bigger files). My point is that those compressors are essentially lossless. What I tried to convey is that MPEG is not lossless. Thanks for checking and clarifying.
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  #12  
05-01-2014, 07:24 AM
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kpmedia kpmedia is offline
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I prefer ISOs on normal hard drives -- even shared drives on a local router.

I hate NAS, and only care for SAN on true cloud hosting. Most consumer SAN/NAS is not very good. It just adds another layer of "stuff" to the drive setup, and every thing you do is another point of possible failure.

The WDTV Live is awesome for watching ISOs -- something I was doing at breakfast.

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  #13  
05-01-2014, 09:07 AM
rappy rappy is offline
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i understand that a NAS can add complexity or not work very well, but I have heard pretty good feedback for Synology products. My intent at a minimum is to "back up" the videos onto the NAS. I will have a copy of my brothers family videos/pictures on my NAS, and he will have my vids/pics on his NAS. I will also have the original DVD's I made from the JVC recorder (stored), and I also plan to save a copy on a bare hard drive and stored someplace off site. Another good feature of the NAS, is being able to create your "own personal cloud" to store mostly pics and video from a smart phone.

I plan on purchasing the NAS in the next month or two. Once I have it, I will then experiment on what will be the best option. I don't want to waste time and effort converting/saving 100+ DVD's only to find out it will not work with my set up.

What I meant by "sharing" is a little less complicated then how I described it. Really, I just want the ability to view the videos from by TV, quickly and easily. That is the #1 priority as far as playback. I can definitely use a WDTV Live (or Apple TV) to stream the content from the NAS. Just want to make sure I save all the DVD's in the proper format.

Thanks for all the help!
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  #14  
05-01-2014, 10:13 AM
premiumcapture premiumcapture is offline
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I also prefer ISOs for archive, but my new setup with XBMC works best with MKVs. Its nicer to skip menus than to have to fiddle, and MakeMKV has never given me grief.

The only two reasons I would maintain ISO for playback are 1 - menus if desired and 2 - closed captions. You cannot extract CCs as a file (not to be confused with subtitles) and it can be a pain to rip them from a disc, so maintaining the ISO maintains the CCs.
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  #15  
05-06-2014, 09:46 PM
rappy rappy is offline
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Ok- things I think are going good. I have "captured" about 50 VHS tapes (= nearly 100 DVD's but not all @ 1 hr), with about 10 more to go. These are the important tapes. I have about 50 more that are a little less important that I will capture as well.

I also have approximately 30 or so miniDV tapes that were captured with a Canon HV 20. I want to capture these next. I think I have a few options. Some equipment I have are:

Canopus ADVC300
Canopus let's edit RT+ card
Windows 7 (64 bit), with SSD drive
XP rig (with 7500 AIW vid card)
JVC DR-M10 DVD recorder

Just like the VHS tapes, I just want a basic capture. Should I just add a FireWire card to the Windows 7 pc, and capture with WINDV, or use one of my other hardware equipment and use different software? Will the WINDV capture in HD, or should I use something else, or not worry about it? Or should I capture straight to the JVC, and follow the same transfer flow I have for the VHS tapes to my "media drive"?

As with the rest of this project. The goal is to Create a "archive" file (DVD and hard drive), then a "media" file that I can use and watch daily to my flat screen or media player.

Thanks as always!
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  #16  
05-07-2014, 11:59 AM
volksjager volksjager is offline
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for the mini-dv just use the camcorder to transfer the video directly to a pc via the firewire cable
the video is already digital so there is no need to use the canopus device or a capture card
you could also probably use the DV input on the DR-M10 - ive never tried that so not sure how good it works
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  #17  
05-07-2014, 01:50 PM
rappy rappy is offline
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Thanks volksjager. Will I need to use any SW like WINDV, or something already in W7?
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  #18  
07-23-2014, 06:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rappy View Post
Thanks volksjager. Will I need to use any SW like WINDV, or something already in W7?
If WinDV works, that'd be my first choice.

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  #19  
08-06-2014, 09:16 PM
rappy rappy is offline
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I've had issues with WinDV as well as a few other free apps recommended on this site. Not sure what the issue is, but I can't play or capture. I get an error.....that escapes me right now. But to be honest it's been a while since I tried capturing. I've been away from home for the last 10 weeks "down south" for work, and now I have a bum knee which makes it difficult to get around and connect/disconnect my equipment. But I do want to get back at it soon. I made such progress with the VHS tapes, that I want to get these mini DV tapes captured as well. Stay tuned!
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10-06-2014, 01:36 PM
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Hello, I apologize for jumping on this thread. But, I sort of understand what's been said and I want to ask some questions. I've been here before, about a year ago and read a ton and asked a lot of questions. Just like everyone else, I have a bunch of vhs home movies to convert. I understand some of it but the language just gets so industry specific and often I just don't know what it means. but, here's where I am. I want these tapes converted in order to preserve them. It's not something we will watch often. I want them very good, possible better than they are if that's doable. They do not have to be the level that you guys would do. I don't have the time or money to get that deeply into this. Same old song, right? That being said, I bought a used Panasonic 1980 locally (have no clue if it's in great shape. It works but nothing to compare to). I have the ATI wonder thing and a TBC 8710. I believe I start with the player, connect with svideo cable to tbc, then svideo to ATI and into something else. That's where I get a little hung up. I know it can go to a dvd recorder or a pc. I think I want to capture as mpeg for broadcast or just mpeg2 for dvd? So here's where I don't know where to go. What I want as a result is a file that I can do a little editing on and I want to be able to add a title screen with some location/date info. Then just burn a dvd that can be played on the tv. So, my question is, if I capture to a dvd burner, is that still raw data that I can, then, load into my pc and edit with adobe or sony or something and then render and burn to dvd? Or do I have to capture to laptop (which I do have and do not have a dvd burner) and just save to an external drive? Then I could pull into edit/authoring software and make my dvd? I know that's a lot of questions. Thanks so much for the time you take to help.
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