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  #1  
03-26-2014, 10:43 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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Hi lordsmurf,

I've spent the past few days and nights scouring the threads and I've come to the conclusion you're the one I trust on these decisions. I had everything set up by getting an XP (P4 2.4 Ghz) hooked up to ADVC110 via JVC 7600U (using WinDV).

I now know you don't hold the ADVC110 in high regard so I'm willing to sell it. I've ditched the thought of using a DVD recorder as a frame synchronizer due to the side effects of going that route that you've mentioned. I also just saw your post how you believe the pannies will do better with SLP tapes and I've been kicking myself since (most of mine are SLP).

One thing I haven't managed to find is your take on miniDV camcorders as TBCs. I've found the same model Davideck had (JVC GR-DVL915U) and was wondering what your take on that one or others are. Am I still better off with external TBC?

I've seen somewhere your favorite is the AVT-8710 but then saw a future post where you've listed the TBC-100 being better (which I can't find to purchase). Since I'm ditching ADVC, is there a PCI card I can purchase? I'm assuming I'd be using Virtualdub to capture instead of WinDV. I wouldn't mind purchasing items off of you if they're in good shape if you're ok with that. Please let me know. I personally would rather have as much details as possible in the picture but am willing to give up a little if the improvement is worth it. Thank you very much!


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  #2  
03-26-2014, 10:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vhsdigital34 View Post
Hi lordsmurf, I've spent the past few days and nights scouring the threads and I've come to the conclusion you're the one I trust on these decisions.
Thanks!

Quote:
I now know you don't hold the ADVC110 in high regard so I'm willing to sell it.
It's okay, as long as you can accept the fact that you'll lose half your color data. (NTSC only, not PAL.) The 4:1:1 compression is just really lousy for VHS conversions, and the tech was never intended to convert video when it was designed. That's what the 4:2:2 codecs are for!

Quote:
I've ditched the thought of using a DVD recorder as a frame synchronizer due to the side effects of going that route that you've mentioned.
I would not use it 100% of the time, but having one can be valuable. A full TBC is a better choice.

Quote:
I also just saw your post how you believe the pannies will do better with SLP tapes and I've been kicking myself since (most of mine are SLP).
Sometimes it's better, sometimes not. Most, but not all, SLP/EP mode tapes do look better on a Panasonic. But I've tape that were completely unstable in a Panasonic and needed a JVC 9800 or KVC SR-V10U. It's why I have several decks, not just one.

Quote:
One thing I haven't managed to find is your take on miniDV camcorders as TBCs. I've found the same model Davideck had (JVC GR-DVL915U) and was wondering what your take on that one or others are. Am I still better off with external TBC?
Davideck is a smart guy, but we'd always disagreed on the definition of a TBC. His definition is very loose, like video product manufacturers. There's lots of leeway for things to not work as desired, however. My definition of a TBC is much tighter, especially when dealing with consumer analog format. My experiences over the years with DV cameras as TBCs has been very hit-or-miss.

Quote:
I've seen somewhere your favorite is the AVT-8710 but then saw a future post where you've listed the TBC-100 being better (which I can't find to purchase).
The AVT-8710 is really good .. but only for older green/black ones. Not the newer black/black ones. There are defective chipsets in the newer models.

If you don't want to gamble on getting a bad chipset, but the TBC-1000 instead. And you're correct, the older TBC-100 is hard to find. It was honsetly never easy to find. Fear not, however! You can rewire the TBC-1000 to bypass the VP-299 proc amp, and simply use the TBC-100 card inside the TBC-1000. (But honestly, it's not worth the bother unless the VP-299 is causing errors for you. Much of that depends on your local power.)

Quote:
Since I'm ditching ADVC, is there a PCI card I can purchase? I'm assuming I'd be using Virtualdub to capture instead of WinDV.
What OS? Windows XP is suggested.

Quote:
I wouldn't mind purchasing items off of you if they're in good shape if you're ok with that. Please let me know. I personally would rather have as much details as possible in the picture but am willing to give up a little if the improvement is worth it. Thank you very much!
I may have an ATI All In Wonder PCI card in perfect shape. I'll need to check it out first. I have a table setup in a store room here, and am tinkering with several systems -- mostly get prove Windows 7 can run ATI All In Wonder cards without issues. Almost there!

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  #3  
03-26-2014, 10:57 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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on top of the previous questions i've had this is what currently happens often with the current set up with the JVC 7600U through ADVC110 to WinDV with my SLP tapes. There's this line that shows up often in the middle of the screen as per screenshot. Is this what the AVT-8710 would fix or do i need the panasonic AG-1980 to correct this? Would the panasonic make this picture better as other than this issue everything else seems pretty stable?

/Users/ohda34home/Desktop/Screen Shot 2014-03-24 at 1.09.55 AM.png
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  #4  
03-26-2014, 10:58 PM
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You didn't attach it.
Instructions to attach files (images, etc) to the forum is here: How to Properly Upload Images and Attach Files to This Site

Try again.

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  #5  
03-26-2014, 11:00 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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I was also wondering what you thought of av-collection as a seller of reconditioned AG-1980 units if we go that route. I know I'm asking a lot of questions but might as well get it all out. =) Thank you
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  #6  
03-26-2014, 11:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vhsdigital34 View Post
I was also wondering what you thought of av-collection as a seller of reconditioned AG-1980 units if we go that route.
You'd better read this: eBay buyer/seller to avoid - Panasonic AG-1980P rip off!

Quote:
I know I'm asking a lot of questions but might as well get it all out. =) Thank you
That's what Premium Membership is for.

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  #7  
03-27-2014, 08:03 AM
volksjager volksjager is offline
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yes - avoid av-collection - aka Son and Danny Tran from Houston TX
i have a AIW PCI card here too if LS doesnt
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  #8  
03-27-2014, 08:42 AM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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Thank you lordsmurf. As always, very helpful info. I have gotten a hold of an XP PC just for this project. (P4 2.4 Ghz 2GB ram). If going without the ADVC110, is video/audio sync going to be a problem?

The av-collection thread talks about selling to them but nothing about buying one of the many AG-1980 machines they refurbish(?) and sell. I've private messaged them and they claim they've sold hundreds and haven't gotten complaints and the few they did they'd either correct or send another one back (shipping back to them at my expense)

I had an AVT-8710 ready to purchase on eBay ($150) but wasn't sure so I've waited till I got a response. It ended a few days ago and it was the (unfortunately for me) the green/black version used in a studio. Is there one you have lying around or someone you know reputable that's willing to sell? The TBC-1000 seems outside my price range.

I'm just trying to convert my tapes so owning multiple decks probably isn't good in terms of return/cost for me so I'm looking to stick with one deck. I'll try to post pictures soon so we know what we're dealing with.

I've also sent in a few tapes to a local pro. They're using ADVC300 connected to digital rapids DRC-500M broadcast card. Does the ADVC300 also lose half it's color? Do you believe the DRC-500M is worth it?

Thank you
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  #9  
03-27-2014, 09:17 AM
volksjager volksjager is offline
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it is just the fact that he outright lied over a $50 parts deck, so what would he do over a $300-$400 item?
if you do buy from him, let us know how the deck is
you can also look for an AG-5710 - which is the same deck as a ag-1980 just minus the tuner
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  #10  
03-27-2014, 09:58 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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The ADVCs convert analog video input to an IEEE1394 (aka: firewire or iLink) DV stream, much like a MiniDV camcorder playback output. That is 4:1:1 or 4:2:0 depending on NTSC or PAL, but it still nets to around 3x the bandwidth of the VCR, much better than you can get from a typical VHS SLP recording. The ADVC300 has features not found in the 110 not the least of which are the ability to adjust the analog inputs and a line TBC (of limited value). But the A/D conversion quality should be about the same if fed a good analog video signal - which is where a TBC and proc amp can fit in - if your VCR and source tape combination does not output a good, clean signal. Similarly noisy video results in poor DVD due to compression issues with poor source material. A different capture device may give a more accurate capture of what comes out of the VCR, but it may not be noticeably better to a viewer of the end product - it may just drain your billfold quicker.

My point with respect to conversion of VHS to DVD is one has to decide when to stop polishing the turd. A point of greatly diminished returns can be reached quickly. Kind of like when teaching a pig to tell time - should we give it a Rolex, or will a Timex be sufficient. Each of us has to decide at what point we are satisfied so we can finish and move on to the next project.
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  #11  
03-27-2014, 05:11 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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Hi Volksjager, I was hoping someone who's already had experience purchasing one could comment before i plop down 300 plus multiple shipping costs cause they think nothing is wrong with it.

Hi dpalomaki, I'm looking to do this transfer once and am looking to put it on disc or HD so it won't go on a typical DVD so I'd like to have the best possible quality. I'm not however looking to spend 1k on this. Maybe all in around 600 or so. with TV sizes increasing each year, i'm sure every little bit will help although i'm not too crazy about the 40gb/hr (lossless) vs 15gb/hr (DV capture) difference...
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  #12  
03-27-2014, 07:52 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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Hi lordsmurf,

As promised, the image attachment showing the type of error i'm getting with line TBC on from the JVC.

Screen Shot 2014-03-24 at 1.09.55 AM.jpg


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  #13  
03-27-2014, 08:02 PM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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Perhaps this was in a different thread, but how much VHS tape do you intend to capture/convert?

Is it SP, LP or SLP/EP?

Is it camcorder original tape? or time shift from broadcasts/cable, or prerecorded tapes (e.g., movies), etc..

Do you plan to spend time using a video editing system to polish the video, perform noise reduction, color grading, cutting material, adding effects, etc? If so, what software are you planning to use?

What will be the ultimate delivery media and format?

How will be be viewed? HDTV, computer? PDA?

What is your video editing/production experience?

I see your budget is $600? That is not much if starting from scratch.
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  #14  
03-27-2014, 08:08 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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Here's a screenshot from a GOVIDEO DVR4300 through composite. First one was SVHS (TBC on) composite -> ADVC110 firewire -> WinDV. Below was VHS component -> ADVC110 firewire -> WinDV. Oddly enough the GOVIDEO seems to keep a very steady picture compared to the two JVC SVHS players I've used.

Screen Shot 2014-03-27 at 9.09.49 PM.jpg


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  #15  
03-27-2014, 08:20 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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These are all SLP through a VCR recording whatever the cable box was displaying on the TV. I'm currently looking at these images with a 52inch HDTV.

The objective here is to capture a good clean source to digital and then sometime down the line as software advances further, I'd hopefully be able to clean it up then. TV sizes are getting larger with time and resolution is only getting better. I'm looking for the best capture I can afford with the most detail that's true to the source.

So, considering that, no post edit needed now and future format is unknown. Considering I have a JVC SVHS for 225, XP desktop for 80, that leaves me roughly 275 left to get a TBC, no? I had a rare chance at obtaining a green/black AVT-8710 for 150 and i'm assuming an AIW card would be between 40 to 60? throw in a sound card (soundblaster?) and i might be under budget. Unless of course there are other things I need to get as well
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  #16  
03-27-2014, 09:32 PM
volksjager volksjager is offline
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AIW cards can be had under $30 (even cheaper if missing the cables)
and soundblasters for under $10 bucks look for a Audigy 2 ZS

you can find good TBC cheaper if patient and good at trolling ebay
you probably want some decent quality S-Video cabes if you dont already have them
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  #17  
03-27-2014, 11:11 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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Thanks Volksjager. I'll continue to look for them on eBay.

I also goofed on the connections on my post.

Correction:
First one with red box was JVC HR-S7600U SVHS (TBC on) SVideo -> ADVC110 firewire -> WinDV.
Second one was GOVIDEO DVR4300 VHS component (no SVideo out) -> ADVC110 firewire -> WinDV.

How can you tell if you need better SVideo cables?
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03-28-2014, 05:03 AM
dpalomaki dpalomaki is offline
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You can tell you need better s-video cables:
- By trying better cables and seeing if the image improves.
- If you see consistent image defects (e.g., noise) that does not change with a changes in player or tape you might benefit from better cables.
- Cable quality becomes more important as cable length increases.
- If your current cables are 99 cent specials from the dollar store, you would probably benefit from better cables.
- If your cables are old, stiff, or cracking or metal contacts are corroded you may benefit from new cables.

I have yet to see a visible difference between moderate cost cables and expensive ones with short (e.g., 3 to 6 feet) runs, and have had pins break in the s-video connectors on some expensive cables. Cable dress and good grounds are often more important.

Don't put off the editing too long. History says that access to all disk storage is at best temporary; i.e.,
Consider Laser discs.
Computers no longer come with floppy disk drives; 8", 5.25: or 3.5".
Who today can readily read data stored on a MFM or RLL hard disk drive?
When was the last time you saw a PC with ZIP or Bernoulli drive?
SCSI connections are no longer common
How long before computers MB no longer have ports for an ATA drive?

Storage formats and NLE support for formats shift over time.

Considering the source material, VHS at SLP from a cable box (probably an RF connection) the VCR and TBC are your most important investments. The VHS sets the upper limit on the useful/recoverable information encoded in the signal.
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  #19  
03-28-2014, 08:04 AM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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lets do this one last time (i can't figure out how to edit previous posts…). It's been a long week for me..

Final correction:
First one with red box was JVC HR-S7600U SVHS (TBC on) SVideo -> ADVC110 firewire -> WinDV.
Second one was GOVIDEO DVR4300 VHS composite (no SVideo out) -> ADVC110 firewire -> WinDV.

dploaki, I am well aware of what's come and gone as a medium. I'm putting these on a 4TB USB 3.0 HD as well as blu ray discs (as data). I had zip, floppy, etc (never had laser disc) but when they were about to fade, you could always transfer them to a regular hard drive. I'm fairly safe in that I'd be able to transfer if a new long term medium does come along. It's data, so it'd be quicker than recapturing all of these tapes again.

lordsmurf, judging by the screen shots, is it worth it for me to get the AG-1980 or is just an external TBC necessary with that output (all of my tapes are behaving the same way as the capture stills shown here)? The line that consistently goes across the guy on the left (look at his left shoulder as well) on the JVC is driving me nuts. Also, have you tried specifically the JVC GR-DVL915U? Is it a situation where it either performs like a TBC or doesn't or does it degrade/change the picture? Does it go through the same loss in color data as the ADVC due to it going through a firewire out?

As for the local pro shop I'm using, what are your thoughts on the ADVC300 connected to digital rapids DRC-500M broadcast card? I haven't seen any threads on the DRC-500M so no idea if it's money well spent.

Thank you very much
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  #20  
03-28-2014, 07:49 PM
volksjager volksjager is offline
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i would definitely try an AG-1980 or if you can find one an SR-W5U both work very well with EP/SLP mode tapes
and as far as the cost remember you can always resell the stuff after you are done
a external TBC and an ATI card will further improve things
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