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  #61  
07-27-2014, 12:10 AM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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Hi Lordsmurf,

Based on post #59, do you think the TBC is working? With my newbie eyes I don't see it doing anything at all.

Also, is it odd that the capture without any TBC seems to look better?

I'd be curious to learn about any findings. Hoping to use this as a case study

I'd also like to share that the free GOM player (unfortunately win only) plays interlaced video surprisingly well. When I played my 640x480 captures (only capturing 640x480 for now for ease of use to look through. Otherwise 720x480) through VLC, seemed like the picture was getting squished but I don't see that from GOM. The picture is the same and the motion is smooth. Only problem I'm seeing with it is the audio. When playing the same AVI file through QuickTime on my Mac it played fine but on interlaced mode in VLC and GOM it gets a little garbled. Not sure why.

Thank you!

-- merged --

Same tape as previous with just the panny TBC (no AVT):

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

Same tape as previous with just AVT TBC (panny TBC off) to see if AVT TBC is working:

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

This is for the two missing rar files from post #64 (couldn't make the 60 minute cut off)

This is the same tape as above but using the JVC HR-7600U TBC instead of the panny along with the AVT TBC. Seems like the panny does better?

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi
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  #62  
07-27-2014, 02:20 AM
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Rather than fill up this server with lots of small multi-RAR attachments, could you instead upload them to the FTP, which has far, far more space than this server? Contact me for details on setting that up for you.

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  #63  
07-27-2014, 03:40 AM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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And finally, the SLP tape captures. The below has both JVC HR-S7600U TBC and AVT's TBC on:
I'll post the rest of the SLP tomorrow morning

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

This is the same SLP with both the AVT and Panny TBCs on:

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi
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  #64  
07-27-2014, 06:50 PM
premiumcapture premiumcapture is offline
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Instead of going through the trouble of uploading all these and having other people have to download so much, I recommend using VLC to take screenshots of scenes where you find the difference. It will help us get a faster rundown of whether or not there is an issue and will in turn get you feedback faster.
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  #65  
07-27-2014, 07:46 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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This is the last SLP tape. This is with the AVT TBC but no panny TBC to see if it can show whether the AVT's TBC is doing anything:

http://cdn4.digitalfaq.com/vhsdigita...fter_reset.avi

I've tried screen shots before and was asked to provide clips as it wasn't sufficient enough. Fortunately for me, I'm finally done uploading.. (huzzah!)

I'm ultimately looking for two things. Is the TBC working on the AVT as I'm not sure I'm seeing a difference between having no TBC and having AVT's TBC (I wouldn't know how to distinguish that and would welcome opinions) and which workflow is best for retail, SLP, and home video tapes. Any detail would be much appreciated as I'm sure myself as well as others can use this as a case study (which is why I went through the trouble by using an entire weekend to do this).

Please don't hesitate to correct me if I'm wrong but does the following make sense?
1) the home video with the little girl is better off with panny's TBC and AVT's TBC (not even sure if the TBC works)
2) for the SLP tapes, the JVC TBC with AVT's TBC is the better option
3) for the retail tape, the panny without panny's TBC and without the AVT is the better option

If there are no differences between the videos that have the AVT's TBC and the videos without it please let me know so I can return it asap.

Thank you very much

-- merged --

So when I've uploaded these, I've grouped them in a relatively logical order. Since the primary thing (due to timing) is to see whether the AVT's TBC is working properly or not, I've created a guide below as to which videos are probably suited to tell whether it's working. I've tried looking at these over and over but can't tell if the AVT TBC is working here. Any help would be greatly appreciated

Home video
# (1st vid) no AVT TBC & no panny TBC
# (2nd vid) with AVT TBC & no panny TBC

Retail video
# (1st vid) no AVT TBC & no panny TBC
# (2nd vid) with AVT TBC & no panny TBC

SLP
# has AVT TBC & panny TBC
# has AVT TBC but no panny TBC
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  #66  
07-29-2014, 03:14 PM
premiumcapture premiumcapture is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vhsdigital34 View Post
So when I've uploaded these, I've grouped them in a relatively logical order. Since the primary thing (due to timing) is to see whether the AVT's TBC is working properly or not, I've created a guide below as to which videos are probably suited to tell whether it's working. I've tried looking at these over and over but can't tell if the AVT TBC is working here. Any help would be greatly appreciated

Home video
Post#60 (1st vid) no AVT TBC & no panny TBC
#60 (2nd vid) with AVT TBC & no panny TBC

Retail video
#61 (1st vid) no AVT TBC & no panny TBC
#64 (2nd vid) with AVT TBC & no panny TBC

SLP
#68 has AVT TBC & panny TBC
#70 has AVT TBC but no panny TBC
If I may ask, are you aware of what a tbc and frame sync do?
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  #67  
07-29-2014, 03:30 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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My understanding is that it syncs the frames so there're no mistimed alignment. The AVT being a full frame tbc, it takes in each line as it comes, constructs a full frame, and sends it out frame by frame. It has a clock it keeps track of to pull all this together. I'm surprised the panny tbc which I understand goes line by line (line TBC which can occasionally trip over itself since not frame by frame) does a much better job than the AVT's full frame TBC (somehow unwatchable and I personally don't notice a change with or without the AVT?). This is why I'm guessing the AVT is defective. But since this is my first time using this TBC, I've been hoping people who've used it and highly recommended it (including guides from this site) could verify whether I'm right or wrong.

The reason for the others on the other hand, is to see which combination of AVT/AG-1980/JVC SVHS works best for SLP recorded tape, retail tape, and home videos originally taken with hi-8 tape. Should be a beneficial case study to all since these are the highly recommended hardware put together in one spot. But we can't get there without determining whether the AVT's TBC is functioning properly or not.
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  #68  
07-29-2014, 03:40 PM
premiumcapture premiumcapture is offline
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so lets assume for a second it is defective. what should the video look like?
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  #69  
07-29-2014, 04:22 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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"I personally don't notice a change with or without the AVT?"

"But since this is my first time using this TBC, I've been hoping people who've used it and highly recommended it (including guides from this site) could verify whether I'm right or wrong."

If I were to be able to answer your question I wouldn't need to post mine. Considering each TBC behaves differently and since this is the first time I'm using this device (or any TBC for that matter), it's only logical that I wouldn't know if defective or not (if it seemingly does nothing) and thus why I'm asking people who have used it to see what they think. I guess ultimately I'm not sure where you're getting at?

If defective, I'd assume either it'd do nothing or have some other non-normal behavior depending on what's defective (I don't know what it would be under normal conditions or potentially various defective conditions)

If you've spotted something and pinpointed/described the portion you've found, I'd probably pick it up faster

My apologies for being a relative newb. I understand it can be frustrating sometimes dealing with people who've just started out.

Last edited by vhsdigital34; 07-29-2014 at 04:33 PM.
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  #70  
07-29-2014, 04:31 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vhsdigital34 View Post
My understanding is that it syncs the frames so there're no mistimed alignment. The AVT being a full frame tbc, it takes in each line as it comes, constructs a full frame, and sends it out frame by frame. It has a clock it keeps track of to pull all this together. I'm surprised the panny tbc which I understand goes line by line (line TBC which can occasionally trip over itself since not frame by frame) does a much better job than the AVT's full frame TBC (somehow unwatchable and I personally don't notice a change with or without the AVT?). This is why I'm guessing the AVT is defective. But since this is my first time using this TBC, I've been hoping people who've used it and highly recommended it (including guides from this site) could verify whether I'm right or wrong.

The reason for the others on the other hand, is to see which combination of AVT/AG-1980/JVC SVHS works best for SLP recorded tape, retail tape, and home videos originally taken with hi-8 tape. Should be a beneficial case study to all since these are the highly recommended hardware put together in one spot. But we can't get there without determining whether the AVT's TBC is functioning properly or not.
Your understanding of the difference between a line tbc and frame tbc is not correct.

Quote:
The AVT being a full frame tbc, it takes in each line as it comes, constructs a full frame, and sends it out frame by frame.
No it doesn't. It works frame by frame, not line by line. In rebulding the frame sync timing signal it ensures a constant frame frame. In doing so, it rebuilds timing signals in such a way as to (usually) destroy the copy protection interference.

Quote:
I'm surprised the panny tbc which I understand goes line by line (line TBC which can occasionally trip over itself since not frame by frame) does a much better job than the AVT's full frame TBC
The Panny tbc does work line by line. A line tbc could care less about the frame rate. The AVT could care less about lines inside the frames. So why insist on using a tape which requires line correction instead of frame correction, and then blame the full-frame AVT for "not doing anything" to a tape that doesn't have copy protection or frame sync errors? Unless you have a very bad case of whacked-out frame sync (and you would be working with, indeed, a tape far more crappy than the those you've shown so far), you're wasting your time using a full-frame tbc on home-made tapes.

BTW, I've used the same Panny on many retail tapes and noticed that some of those supposedly copy protected tapes didn't need a frame tbc when played via the AG-1980.

Last edited by sanlyn; 07-29-2014 at 05:02 PM.
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  #71  
07-29-2014, 06:08 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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Thanks guys. I now see direction with this.

So since the line TBC is off, the AVT is keeping the frame sync timing of a badly distorted tape. So in order to test whether the AVT's TBC is working or not, you need to have playback with no line timing errors. What would it look like if the frame sync timing was off? Is there any way to test whether the AVT's TBC was malfunctioning? Also, does full field TBC = frame synchronizer?

So it looks like if there is any way to see if the AVT's TBC isn't working it's be these samples instead. Are there certain things I can look out for to see if the frame sync timing is off?

Home video
# (1st vid) with AVT TBC & panny TBC
# (2nd vid) without AVT TBC but with panny TBC

Retail video
# (2nd vid) has AVT TBC & panny TBC
# (1st vid) without AVT TBC but with panny TBC

SLP
# has AVT TBC & panny TBC
Don't have a capture of without AVT TBC but with Panny TBC

I wasn't blaming the AVT's TBC. I was just reporting what I saw and was looking for direction. Now I know it was seemingly doing nothing because I wasn't comparing the right samples. Thank you for that. I appreciate all the help I can get.

Last edited by vhsdigital34; 07-29-2014 at 06:27 PM.
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  #72  
07-29-2014, 07:11 PM
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Be also aware, as you seem to have caught on, that even if one or the other is improving playback, sometime for some tapes a combination of both may not agree. I have had a few tapes where the VCR's TBC was actually causing distortions and interfering with the ES-15's ability to straighten it out.

I only ask those questions as there exists a lot of misunderstanding on how these devices work and affect video. Each time you affect the signal, there is always a tradeoff.
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  #73  
07-29-2014, 07:13 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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Just saw this trying to figure it out on my end as well. Is the AVT's TBC to correct the jerky movement on the right picture? Does it correct other things as well?

http://youtu.be/i2SgBhszm9Q
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  #74  
07-29-2014, 07:17 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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Thanks premiumcapture. I appreciate that.

Does that mean your set up is a line TBC (VCR) onto another line TBC (ES-15)? I'm assuming the ES-15 would be a line TBC as it's looking to straighten things out. If so, is there an advantage to using two line TBCs?
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  #75  
07-29-2014, 07:50 PM
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Every piece of equipment treats a signal a little differently, the DVD line 'tbc' tend to straighten things out but many of the VCR one's most important feature is noise reduction. Sometimes they work great together, otherwise they conflict, but there is no single recipe or piece of equipment that handles every tape perfectly.
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  #76  
07-29-2014, 07:57 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Better examples of severe line sync problem correction using a device with line tbc -vs- no line tbc. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMA5aH_olAQ

The example you posted above is moderate line off-sync + severe playback noise (comets). A line tbc doesn't entirely fix those white streaks, noise reduction is part of the correction shown in the earlier link.

Videos for the posts linked below are no longer available, but frame captures are still posted:

Examples of Macrovision distortion, repaired using DV recorders as pass-thru (Panasonic and Toshiba).
These two era 2002-2005 recorders are known to often ignore Macrovision when used as pass-thru tbc's,
because these quality DVD-R's had nominal line-tbc plus some measure of elementary frame sync circuits:
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...=1#post2141384

Examples (Example 1 and Example 2) of screen distortion due to line sync errors, repaired with line-tbc pass thru:
http://forum.videohelp.com/threads/3...=1#post2141386

Last edited by sanlyn; 07-29-2014 at 08:18 PM.
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  #77  
07-29-2014, 07:59 PM
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You can use deVHS and a few other filters in AviSynth to minimize magnetic dropout, but another lesson to be learned here is to throw the word 'perfect' out the window.
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  #78  
07-29-2014, 08:15 PM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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Thanks guys!

Hi sanlyn, I was looking more for an example that shows what kind of errors the AVT's TBC would correct. Seemed like the video on the right of the YouTube click I provided had a lot of jerky movement and was wondering if that's what the AVT is for. Still not sure what kind of errors the AVT corrects look like. That's a great video that opened my eyes about line TBC some more. Thanks for the link!

Hi premiumcapture, if the ES-15 is to straighten out lines, would having three devices before the capture card be one too many? Panny TBC -> ES-15 -> AVT-8710?
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  #79  
07-30-2014, 02:55 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vhsdigital34 View Post
Hi sanlyn, I was looking more for an example that shows what kind of Macrovision errors the AVT's TBC would correct.
A frame-level TBC such as the AVT would correct the bright flashing and distortion shown in the dinner table scene from the African Queen (with Bogart in the image).

Quote:
Originally Posted by vhsdigital34 View Post
Seemed like the video on the right of the YouTube click I provided had a lot of jerky movement and was wondering if that's what the AVT is for.
No. Those are line timing errors within frames. They are fixed with a line tbc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vhsdigital34 View Post
Still not sure what kind of errors the AVT corrects look like.
Different playback or capture devices and methods will display as different effects. Strong pixellation, distortion and rapid bright "flashing" or rapid-fire bright/dark frames accompanied by strong frame hopping and "dancing". The distortion can be as bad as an entire image turned into angular steaks that look like a full-frame version of the head-switching noise at the bottom of VHS frames. You'll also see at least several frames being dropped or repeated by the capture device every few seconds. However, physical damage can often cause problems, but they don't always look like macrovision effects. One of your earlier captures without the AVT has a missing frame and what appears to be two dropped fields (which produced two double-image interlacing effects) that can result from the way capture devices or capture software translates frame timing errors caused by physical damage.

If you see vertical lines, angular lines, or side borders wiggling, don't expect a full-frame TBC to fix it.
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  #80  
07-30-2014, 11:39 AM
vhsdigital34 vhsdigital34 is offline
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Thank you very much sanlyn!

When you say physical damage, do you mean to the VCR or the tape?
I did notice every time I capture regardless of which tape and VCR, there's almost always 1 or 2 dropped frames within the first 15 seconds of every capture. Not sure if that's due to physical damage as it doesn't drop frames or cause as much jitter afterwards (I've captured an hour of it). I also notice the jitter figure next to dropped frames at the bottom of virtualdub become somewhat erratic during that same time frame. Would you know what's causing that? I was hoping the AVT would resolve that but I see it with or without the AVT. Is it the VCR attempting to find proper tracking and inherent in every capture?
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