HuffYUV/Lagarith YUY2 not working with VirtualDub/Premiere?
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Okey, here's the situation. I'm used to work with DV footage but I'm trying to move over to HuffYUV/Lagarith now... but it doesn't work with the same workflow as I'm used to... so I really need some help here.
Here's the workflow that I'm used to: 1. Capture from VHS tapes to AVI DV PAL using my Panasonic NV-HS960 VCR, Datavideo TBC-1000 and Canopus ADVC-300. 2. Edit DV footage using Adobe Premiere and/or VirtualDub 3. Convert from DV to MPEG-2 using Canopus ProCoder 3 Now I've set up an dedicated capture computer with my old ATI AIW 7500 capture card and I'm trying to capture with HuffYUV or Lagarith codec using VirtualDub. I've managed to set up the computer properly now so I'm able to capture both HuffYUV and Lagarith for more than 3 hours without any dropped frames or audio synch problems. So far, so good, BUT! My workflow doesn't work anymore. Canopus ProCoder have some serious issues with YUY2 footage, so I can't use it for Conversion anymore, and Adobe Premiere CS 5.5 won't work with the HuffYUV codec! :mad4: Lagarith seems to work better with Adobe. The lagarith files import fine and I'm able to edit them, but right now this evening I ended up with a corrupt file after exporting to Lagarith from Adobe Premiere :-( This happened without any warning from Adobe Premiere or Adobe Media Encoder. From Adobes point of view, everything during the export process went fine. But when I\'m trying to convert the exported file to MPEG-2 using MainConcept Reference, MC Reference simply "shuts down" unexpextly during the process. The same happens in VirtualDub . When watching the file in VD, there are some corrupted frames and VD also shuts down at the same timecode as MC Reference :-( Now I have to do the whole work all over again... and maybe even more of my files exported from Premiere is also corrupt. :smack: Right now I\'m just so extremely sick and tired of this piece of SH#¤@/&(¤IT and I just want to go back to my old workflow, working with DV footage instead. It\'s SO MUCH EASIER and it just WORKS all the time without problems! I\'ve never in my entire life experienced anything like this before with DV. I think it\'s really soon a question of going back to DV or going crazy! :mad4: But before I do, I give this thread a try. Please people, let me know; WHAT AM I DOING WRONG? Why does this happen? How can I work with HuffYUV or Lagarith YUY2 footage in Adobe Premiere without experiencing these kind of problems? ...Or what other software should I use for editing my footage? What workflow are you guys using for capturing, editing and converting HuffYUV/Lagarith footage? Here is a sample of one of the corrupted frames: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1426290679 This is the error from VirtualDub: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1426290679 |
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Your old workflow was OK, but....don't you do any cleanup of bad Levels or color correction? Denoise? The last step #3 is interesting, in that you say you "convert" to MPEG-2 from DV, but what you really do is re-encode from DV to MPEG-2. That makes at least two lossy encodes in your workflow. If you used any filters or made image mods in Adobe, add more lossy encodes. Quote:
The main purpose behind capturing to lossless media is that you encode only once -- after you do any cleanup, color correction, or edits. Changes made to lossless media are saved as new, lossless output files. With DV, however, if you do any filtering or color work, then some cleanup, etc., you re-encode DV every time, period. No way around it. No exceptions. By the time you've re-encoded your DV captures, you've lost so much data and piled up so many compression artifacts, you might as well throw the results in the garbage. Use whatever software you want, or use any free software you want, but multiple re-encodes is the pits. A question from my end: other than simple cut and join, what are you doing as "edits" in Adobe? Are you repairing the defects usually seen with VHS and VHs->DV captures -- like, e.g, line twitter, dropouts, halos, dct ringing, shimmer and other disturbed motion, etc. ? If so, how are you doing that with Adobe? Are you doing it in Avisynth? VirtualDub? Are you fixing invalid video levels and blown out brights in YUV before going to something like RGB for other work in Adobe? Adobe can work with Lagarith, so use Lagarith for lossless compression. The final results should be converted to YV12 for encoding (YV12 conversions are weak spots with Adobe, despite the Pro label. Avisynth and even VirtualDub do it better). The encoders sound OK, but even with a premium label they work only with YV12, which is default colorspace for MPEG/BluRay/AVCHD. And a lot of other encoders will insist on the same thing. Quote:
My lossless AVI's are run through any cleanup needed with Avisynth and/or VirtualDub (with VHS, it's always needed!). Sometimes it's cut into segments that need TLC or intensive care. I seldom run an entire video thru all processing in one-button "auto" mode, which is the Walmart/BestBuy/PCMag method and seems to be the way Joe Q. Consumer uses Premiere Pro. Cleanup and repair often require deinterlace and re-interlace operations (which Adobe doesn't do very well) for certain filters and certain problems, or working with field separation methods and/or inverse telecine (again, I wouldn't use Adobe for that, nor even my prized copy of AfterEffects), and involves colorspace changes from YUY2 to YV12 and/or RGB (Adobe doesn't do those very well, either). Then the Lagarith stuff goes to any of several programs I use for color correction: VirtualDub's color filters, the multiple-colorspace filters in TMPGenc Plus 2.5 or TMPGenc Mastering Works, or AfterEffects Pro with Color Finesse and Colorista plugins. (Since you have Premiere Pro, you have excellent color features available in PP's advanced menus). If I need a multi-level timeline (I usually don't) I feed lossless to TMPGenc Mastering Works, whose MPEG/x264 encoders I often use. If I need fancier timeline work or any serious mods like color layer work or whatnot, lossless Lagarith goes to AfterEffects, but is saved as lossless for a better encoder. Several good encoders at hand: TMPGenc, and both HCenc and x264 in several other apps. I don't know what the VirtualDub error concerning Lagarith is about. Mainly, I don't know what you were trying to open in VirtualDub or what had been done to it. VirtualDub has no problem opening properly compressed formats, providing the decompressor is in the system. I assume that when you save those lossless files earlier you're telling Lagarith what colorspace you want, right? Oh, what do I use for cut band join? I can use all of the apps mentioned for those operations, in one way or another. For cutting up already-encoded video I use TMPGEnc Smart Renderer. On the other hand.....If your purpose is more limited: "capture -> Adobe cut-join -> encode", you can always go back to DV and your usual methods. Of course, you'll get the same results. You can also use lossless AVI, as well. But you don't say what you're doing in Premiere that gets messages from media encoders. Aren't you just saving your output as lossless AVI? If you're working with lossless and you want to go straight to encoding, then you don't need Lagarith for that output. |
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The weak link here in the ADVC-300, which can actually be worse than the lowly 50/55 or 100/110 models. You'd think that a $300+ devices would be better than a $100+ devices, but you'd be wrong. Quote:
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- Huffyuv > Premiere CS4 > uncompressed or Huffyuv output - edited output to MainConcept Reference for DVD/BD MPEG or H.264 streaming It works flawlessly, and has for several years now. Nothing is broke, so not fixing (upgrading) it. :congrats: Edit/add: I also tend to wonder if your error has nothing to do with codecs at all, and is actually a hard drive issue. Fragmentation can especially cause these issues. Also make sure it's not being saved to the OS drive, but a secondary internal (IDE/SATA) or eSATA drive, and not USB. Quote:
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So it's not just John Q. Consumer, but "pros" that really are not experienced video pros at all. :smack: Quote:
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Yes, lordsmurf mentioned (but I forgot) that DV can always be decoded into lossless media for detail work before final encoding later. And there's always the huffyuv-vs-lagarith-vs-other guys debate. I recall myself seeing issues with Win7/8 and huffyuv. I went to Lagarith because it seemed to fit everywhere.
But those are minor compared to the problems you describe. I'd start by asking for more step-by-step info...not the entire process, but what would be the first step or two that you want to work with your lossless captures? Better to address issues a step at a time. I can't say I've seen the effects you posted, but you might want to ensure that your entire process with anything in Avisynth or VirtualDub is 32-bit. 64-bit might be nice (not necessarily faster), but there just isn't enough 64-bit filter development just yet. |
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Okey. Thank you VERY MUCH, both of you for trying to help me out. I'll try to give you some more details.
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The exception to this workflow may be a few clips where I need to do color corrections. I prefer doing that in Adobe Premiere. Then I usually do both the color correction and adding NeatVide filter in Adobe Premiere and export directly to MPEG-2 from the Adobe Premiere sequence. I tried doing all the cutting in VirtualDub, but after appending a hugh number of AVI segments from a whole bunch of different files, I ended up with audio and video out of synch for some reason. Why? :question: Quote:
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I will answer "lordsmurfs" questions in another post :) |
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Once again; THANK YOU SO MUCH BOTH OF YOU for your great input. I would never been able to do this without the help from you guys :congrats: |
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1. I capture with my dedicated capture computer using VirtualDub - YUY2 lagarith codec (P4 2,8Ghz, 1GB RAM, ATI AIW 7500, SoundBlaster Audigy, 200GB IDE harddrive) 2. I open the captured file in VirtualDub on my dedicated editing computer (64-bit Win7 Intel I7). I open it straight from the capture PC using gigabit network connection. Then I simply use VirtualDub to copy the file (direct stream copy) from my capture PC to my editing PCs internal harddrive for "editing" with Adobe Premiere. 3. THIS PROCESS ACTUALLY SEEMS TO WORK FINE! I haven't noticed any problems with my workflow so far. 4. Then I import that file into Adobe Premiere for editing (advanced cutting) using the sequence settings as the attachement in my 2nd post (post #5). 5. After the editing in Adobe Premiere, I export my sequence using the export settings like the attachement in my 2nd post (post #5). I export the file directly to my External USB 3.0 HDD for permanent storage. From this file I want to do more advanced editing/restortion in the future. it's not yet added any filters, only cuting and joining so it's still "untouched" footage as far as I know. 6. THIS IS WHERE IT WENT WRONG. THIS FILE ON MY External HDD is "corrupt" without any warning from Adobe Premiere! 7. This file should now be my "master file" that I want to work with in VirtualDub. Now I want to add filters, and cut into pieces and/or convert to MPEG-2 using MainConcept Reference or AME. And I have to make sure this file works properly so I can delete the source file from my dedicated capture computer so I can capture new stuff to the very limited 200GB IDE disk in that computer. This is a old computer with AGP port and no S-ATA connection :hmm: |
You made mention several times of your input "capture file". Is this capture from PAL VHS? I noted on your AP output image that you specify bottom field first. PAL and NTSC VHS are usually top field first, not bottom field. DV is almost always bottom field first. Your output is sized to 704x576 -- is this the frame size you captured?
You also mentioned something about MC Reference and VD shutting down at the same point. Do you mean both are running at the same time, i.e, encoding to an encoder right out of VDub's output? People do that, but I never cared for it. I run VDub and encoders separately. Or maybe I'm confused about how you're using them. People have reported problems with Win7 and USB 3.0 external drives (file corruption, including data files). If your external USB drive is USB-powered instead of an A.C. powered external container, that could be another problem. All I do with external drives is copy to or from. I don't feed files to external drives during processing. NeatVideo works only in RGB. There's nothing wrong with correcting color in Premiere, but the problem becomes the sloppy way Premiere converts to RGB. VirtualDub doesn't get it exactly right either, depending on certain factors related to the source file. I always make initial colorspace conversions in Avisynth, whiuch has settings for frame structure and color matrix (yes, these do matter when converting colorspace). Audio sync with joined files depends a lot on how your initial cuts were made. Audio is usually stored as an offset to video (audio occurs earlier than video, similar to the way it does on movie film). Different files, different captures, etc., have different audio offsets and delay. I make cuts and joins together in the same app. If I do have to have such a cut made at different times in differemnt apps, I include some trailing frames to make sure the joiner can match the audio between sources. Avisynth has similar concatenation settings; they differ depending on how you want audio to match up between segments. Avisynth has provision to adjust audio sync uniformly between segments. How Adobe does this is not familiar to me, and how VirtualDub does it depends, as I said, on audio delay characteristics from different segments. I tend to make all of my cuts in either Avisynth or VirtualDub, but I keep each segment separate for processing, leave some trailing space to catch any audio glitches, then join them later. Yes, this takes more time. But I don't have audio sync or color matching problems between segments. This is especially true of segments joined from different captures, less so with segments from the same capture. If I'm working with a timeline I join segments in the timeline (after all other processing), then encode from there. Can't come up with more detail offhand. Just started another capture and have to keep my eyes on it for now. [Oops. Forgot again!] Audio is usually captured as uncompressed PCM. It stays that way until the final encode. Avoid capping or changing audio to compressed formats like C3 or mp2 during processing. I don't demux audio and video during cutting. Had too many problems doing it that way. |
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I'm gonna try skipping using the external USB 3.0 HDD now... see if that works better ;) Thank you once again so much for your wonderful help :) Just one more thing: Is there a reliable way to automatically scan through videofiles for errors? |
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Just a short update:
I stoped using my external USB3.0 HDD. After capturing, I simply copied the file from my capture PC to my editing PC's internal harddrive. Then edited with Adobe Premiere. But after exporting from Adobe Premiere, this is what happened: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/atta...1&d=1426939322 Then we know it's not related to using external USB3.0 HDD. I guess it must be the lagarith codec that is causing it for some strange reason? DAMNIT! How can I get HuffYUV to work with Adobe Premiere CS5.5 64-bit? Anyone knows??? |
Obviously, then, something's screwy. On the machine where you have Adobe installed, how does that same AVI look in media players and in VirtualDub? How did the files transferred from your capture PC to the Adobe PC? Do you get any error messages? Do you have a MediaInfo report on the AVI shown in the image posted?
An acquaintance uses huffyuv and Lagarith, both, in Adobe Premiere Pro, and I use both in AfterEffects. We're using the two compressors in other editors as well (VirtualDub, TMPGenc TVMW), and via Avisynth to HCenc encoder and the Avisynth plugin for AfterEffects as well as AE direct import. |
What version of Adobe Premiere pro are you using? I think I can get HuffYUV to work with Premiere CS4 and earlier that is 32-bit software... but I've been "adicted" by Adobe Premiere's "Mercury Playback Engine" that is integrated to the later 64-bit versions of Premiere Pro. But I can'can't get it to work with the HuffYUV codec. II've tried both the regular 32-bit version, the 64-bit version and the mulithreding version of HuffYUV. None of them is working with my Premiere Pro CS5.5 :(
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Using avisynth to handle the decoding usually works when NLEs screw it up.
I was going to recommend the AviSynth plug-in for Premiere, but it may not work with newer versions: http://pwolfamv.com/programs/csavs64/ This may work if the above plug-in is incompatible with CS6: http://www.videohelp.com/tools/Avisy...al-File-System The Mercury Playback Engine is of marginal use with SD video, the machine is more then fast enough to decode and playback SD video without a problem. |
Thanks! :)
When I've digitized a tape, I like to fast farwarding through the whole file on 4X speed, looking for errors. If I find any errors (I usually do), then I digitize those parts once more. Most of the times, the errors gets less anoying the 2nd time. I've tried to use Adobe Premiere Pro CS4, but it has very jerky playback at 4X speed :-( In Premiere Pro CS5.5 with "The Mercury Playback Engine", it's flawless! ;) |
Personally I use VirtualDub for scrubbing capture files, its one thing it does well. CS4 is suited for NLE tasks only here. I discovered the Avisynth plug-in after I encountered problems with CS4 not being able to properly speed up video footage for a time lapse driving video. I landed up creating an AviSynth script to do it and a de-interlace pass (another thing CS4 screws up) and then imported that output into my CS4 timeline.
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I think it's easier in Premiere. Then I can just import the new clip and add it to the sequence right away.
How is it possible to play at 4X speed with sound in VirtualDub? I have to listen for "audio-drops" also (switching between stereo and mono) :mad4: |
One other thing you can try. DebugMode Frameserver: http://www.debugmode.com/frameserver/
It allows you to "export" the Premiere timeline to another application without saving a file. You can feed the raw output directly into VirtualDub (or any other video program, compressor, etc) this way. That avoids having to use HuffYUV or Lagarith. I use DebugMode to compress to formats not supported by Premiere's built in compressor, or to do a final de-interlace pass. |
Okey. Looks great! :)
I'm gonna check them out ;) Thanks a lot! :congrats: |
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