Please review my video capture setup!

[willow5]

Hi Sanlyn, apologies for the silence again, been focussed on some other domestic stuff so I don't get much time to spend on this more interesting project

Anyways, yes you are right in that I am in the first stage of trying to make a workable lossless capture. I don't want to rush ahead but there have been times where I need to get some content off right away for friends or relatives and I kind of panic as I do not know what / how to get them the content they want in a rushed manner so if this question comes up again I now know what to do.

Just one clarification - you mentioned that I should cut the losssless capture as desired with VirtualDub or avisynth, please can you advise the best way of doing this as every time I have tried doing this, it again takes a long time to cut out the parts I want so in some ways it is less headache for me to simply convert the entire file to AVI rather than go through a laborious process of cutting then converting....unless I am doing something wrong?

Now onto other matters with respect to teletext or CC information...I have a good VCR (Panasonic NV-FS200) and it is managing to give me some good video outputs onto a regular TV set including legacy teletext information (see attached image)...when I previously asked this question on this thread, I was informed that if I use a TBC, all this information would be stripped out but as I am now getting good results I am wondering whether there is any way of preserving this information and reading the data somehow once it is digitally captured ? Is there a suitable decoder available ? The reason this information is useful is because I can timestamp some of the recordings down to the second it was broadcast which could be useful for future references....any help would be appreciated.

Finally, does anyone know where I can get a good TBC from ? I have tried ebay but these seem to be quite rare especially the PAL ones

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow5

Just one clarification - you mentioned that I should cut the losssless capture as desired with VirtualDub or avisynth, please can you advise the best way of doing this as every time I have tried doing this, it again takes a long time to cut out the parts I want so in some ways it is less headache for me to simply convert the entire file to AVI rather than go through a laborious process of cutting then converting....unless I am doing something wrong?

I don't know what you mean by "convert to AVI". Aren't you already capturing to lossless AVI? Why are you "converting" if you're already in AVI? AVI is a container, not a format. As a container it serves as a wrapper for video encoded in various ways using different codecs, including lossless compressors (huffyuv, Lagarith, UT Video, etc.), Xvid/DivX, Type 1 or Type 2 consumer DV, or MJPEG, etc). So what are you doing when you say "convert" from AVI to AVI?

Avisynth can make cuts using the Trim() command. Or, If you open a lossless AVI in VirtualDuib, you can use the navigation keys in the lower left corner of the window and the commands in the Edit menu to cut out sections of video. Either way, the cut segments are saved out of VirtualDiub using "direct stream copy" mode instead of "full processing" mode. Using direct stream copy, an AVI that goes into VirtualDub as lossless huffyuv will save as the same format. The other way to keep the format as lossless AVI is to set the colorspace and compression you want in VirtualDuib, then save using "fast recompress" mode -- this is the save mode used when applying Avisynth filters and image modification to lossless video. By themselves, the Trim() command or VirtualDub edit commands don't modify the images.

If you are using an NLE to make cuts and you want to save to lossless format, you'll have to recompress the results using the same lossless codec you started with. How you set that up in your NLE I wouldn't know, it depends on the software's interface setup.

External frame tbc's aren't always needed, but I'd say they are most of the time.
I can't answer for teletext or CC information. Why are they needed?

Common External tbc's like the AVT-8710 or TBC-1000 work with NTSC and PAL. Another source of frame sync is a DVD recorder used as a pass-thru device between player and capture card. Pass-thru can't defeat macrovsion, isn't quite as powerful as an external frame tbc, and the machines are usually dedicated to either NTSC or PAL formats. Tbc's are as difficult to find in North America as they are in other countries.

[willow5]

Hi - sorry for not being in contact recently, other priorities mean I rarely get time to spend on this. Could someone kindly confirm whether the For.A 370 is a good TBC compared to the datavideo TBC's like their 1000 or 3000 series?

-- merged --

Hi - please can someone kindly answer my question on TBC's in my last post? I am not sure whether to hold out for a datavideo TBC or go for a For.A one?

[lordsmurf]

Some folks like the For.A TBC, but I do not. I completely dislike those huge clunky TBCs, as the same functionality can be had in a small box from Cypress/AVT or DataVideo.

If you have plenty of space, and can get it dirt cheap, then I'd understand.

If you're in gambling mood, bid $125 on this: http://rover.ebay.com/rover/1/711-53...-/182351935832

[willow5]

Thanks for your advice @lordsmurf. I need a pal TBC, is there an easy way of telling whether the tbc you linked to is PAL compatible? Also is the functionality the same between the For.A and the datavideo leaving aside the physical size issues?

[lordsmurf]

The TBC-1000 is PAL compatible. That unit doesn't have a power supply, and you'll have to get one. Off-hand, I don't recall the voltage/etc needed, but it's probably in the user manual, available for download on this site.

Again, it's not 100% guaranteed, so consider it gambling. Odds are, however, that's it fine. A guaranteed-working unit is worth 3x that amount.

The For.A has an integrated proc amp. You can get the same on the DataVideo TBC-3000 for about $500 -- if you can find one.

This is mostly about preference. Do you need or want it?

[willow5]

I just checked with the seller and he said that his TBC-1000 is NTSC not PAL. When you say it is PAL compatible, are you speaking generally or about all TBC-1000's?

I need a TBC desperately as I need to get on with the daunting task of transferring my many tapes but TBCs rarely come up for sale on ebay

[lordsmurf]

I've never seen an NTSC-only TBC-1000. The boxes were often marked "NTSC", but would play a PAL signal with zero issues. I've mentioned this many times in the past 10 years.

[willow5]

Hi all, I am really excited as I have finally managed to track down a TBC1000 hopefully in working condition (will find out tomorrow). So after tomorrow, my capture set up will go like this:

VCR: Panasonic NV-FS200
Time base corrector: TBC1000
Capture card: ATI 9600

Do I need anything else or am I now good to go? Do I switch on the TBC on the VCR as well as the TBC1000?

As an aside, I have also managed to pick up a DAC-200 which as far as I can tell is a DV capture box. Do I need this or should I try and move it on bearing in mind all of my content is Hi8/VHS with a small number of Betamax tapes....

Thanks to this lovely forum for getting me to this point - I am really grateful and pleased!

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow5

Hi all, I am really excited as I have finally managed to track down a TBC1000 hopefully in working condition (will find out tomorrow). So after tomorrow, my capture set up will go like this:

VCR: Panasonic NV-FS200
Time base corrector: TBC1000
Capture card: ATI 9600

Looks as if you're good to go.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow5

Do I switch on the TBC on the VCR as well as the TBC1000?

AS explained earlier, you have two types of tbc available. One is a scanline-level ("line" tbc) in the VCR. The other is the full-frame sync tbc ("frame" tbc) in the TBC-1000. You need both.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow5

I have also managed to pick up a DAC-200 which as far as I can tell is a DV capture box. Do I need this....

That's a firm and definite no. Heaven forbid.

[willow5]

Thanks @sanlyn

Is the DAC-200 similar to the canopus advc-300 just for my information?

Also I will enable both TBC's and post results here over the coming days...will need some further assistance post capture to clean up the videos...I am really excited to spend the holidays doing this

Is there anything I need to do in readiness for bulk capture in terms of settings etc?

[sanlyn]

I think I referred to a recent VirtualDub capture settings guide that goes into considerable detail, if you want to check them against your default settings: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...-settings.html. You can post short unprocessed samples from AVi captures directly in the forum, up to 99MB each (10 seconds of losslessly compressed YUY2 capture will easily fit within that limit). Cut samples in VirtualDub and save them using "direct stream copy" to maintain the original colorspace, lossless compression, and other properties.

[willow5]

All received- just one thing before I hook it up, do I route the audio through the TBC or bypass the TBC and go direct into the ATI? I am sure the answer is somewhere on this site but couldn't find it....

[sanlyn]

[EDIT]
VCR Video Out -> TBC -> ATI
VCR Audio Out -> TBC -> ATI
Use the "A" outputs from the TBC-1000
Some external tbc's won't accept audio, but the TBC-1000 takes both.

[willow5]

Thanks Sanlyn, just came across this thread where @msgohan indicates that passing through the audio is better for sync - are there two schools of thought on this?

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...ect-audio.html

[sanlyn]

The purist audiophile school of thought is that the more connections and circuitry you have, the more likely it is that some small amount of noise or degradation is involved. More plugs/jacks + more wires = more chances for less fidelity. If you can hear a difference, you're pretty good and are probably listening through $500 high-end electrostatic phones and a lab-quality head amp(!) for pass-thru. Audio capture works whether you go through the TBC or go directly to the ATI card. To go through the TBC you need two lengths of audio cable, to go around it you need only one. If you fear audio noise (and if you can possibly hear it, which is iffy), bypass the tbc. In my case I don't feed audio through my tbc.

[willow5]

Just done my first capture using the TBC and I can report that it dropped 1 frame out of 78797 total frames - I think that is pretty good but what do the experts think ? Also, for some reason it inserted 3 frames - does anyone know why this could be if it only dropped 1 frame ?

I also connected the audio directly to the ATI and used S-Video connectors from the VCR to the TBC and into the ATI but with the TBC enabled on the VCR (Panasonic NV-FS200), the colours look too bright, they seem to look more natural to me with the TBC switched off. Does anyone know why this could be ?

I will try to upload a video but how do I easily crop 100Mb from a file size of 24.58Gb in VDub ?

[sanlyn]

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow5

Just done my first capture using the TBC and I can report that it dropped 1 frame out of 78797 total frames - I think that is pretty good but what do the experts think ? Also, for some reason it inserted 3 frames - does anyone know why this could be if it only dropped 1 frame ?

Not unusual, but it could be happening because you told VirtualDub to do it. Chek your settings in the "Timing Options" area of VirtualDub as covered in this post from the settings guide" http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post45242 areas:

Quote:

Originally Posted by willow5

I also connected the audio directly to the ATI and used S-Video connectors from the VCR to the TBC and into the ATI but with the TBC enabled on the VCR (Panasonic NV-FS200), the colours look too bright, they seem to look more natural to me with the TBC switched off. Does anyone know why this could be ?

Some internal tbc's have that affect, but it also depends on the individual tape. Unfortunately your capture probably has multiple scaline timing errors and jitter, which can't be fixed later. Ultimately the incoming luma levels should be adjusted anyway using your card proc amp and VDub's capture histogram to check for valid y=16-235 luminance levels whether you're using the TBC or not. If your monitor isn't precisely calibrated and/or if you're not using a histogram, and proc amp controls to check incoming levels, how do you know it's too bright? Just saying that it "looks" that way isn't as foolproof as checking with the proper tools, as shown in this section of the recent guide: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post45238.

I will try to upload a video but how do I easily crop 100Mb from a file size of 24.58Gb in VDub ?[/quote]There are edit start and stop marks in the lower left-hand corner of VirtualDub's window. Move to the start point and click the start-point icon, then move to the last frame you want to select and click the end-point icon. Then use the "Edit" top menu to delete. Before saving the file set "Video"... -> to "direct stream copy" (DO NOT USE "full processing mode" !!!!!). But rather than make a whole copy of your capture, why not delete what you want during post processing? How do you intend to process this capture?

[willow5]

Please find it attached - for the eagle eyed amongst you, this is the same clip I previously uploaded when I first started capturing before I had a TBC...any comparisons ?

Shall I post this same without the VCR TBC switched on to give you an idea of what I mean about the bright colours or is this clip sufficient ?

Thanks for the tips on the dropped/inserted frames @Sanlyn, I shall play around with the timing options as mentioned in the very useful guide...is there a guide on the histogram feature, I remember reading it somewhere on this site but cannot find it anymore - it went into a lot of detail about cropping the frames then adjusting the levels accordingly - I think it might have even been written by you Sanlyn ?

[sanlyn]

Levels look about right in the capture sample just posted. I noted what appeare to be more chroma noise (rainbows) than I saw earlier. In a media player if you pause on a frame you can see cyan and magenta blotches in the dark sweater material, and if you look closer you see the same thing in the red sofa background. There is also some line twitter at the top border. There is less posterizing effect in the skin tones this time and highlights don't look like "hot spots", especially on the face. I didn't see scanline "wiggles" or ragged lines.

There are pictures of a corrected and uncorrected capture histogram in the post at http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post45238 and an image of the crop dialog window in the following post at http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post45239 . There were two earlier posts in which a little more detail was discussed, but one post was just a copy of the first one, as in this post: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/vide...html#post44278.