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  #21  
01-12-2018, 12:44 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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New comers rarerluy understand the damage inflicted by upscaling standard def analog sources with software to HD sizes. If you think it looks good to you, you're going to find yourself largely alone among those with better eyes. But do whatever you want. Your players and Tv can upscale far better with hardware than you can with software.

There's a proper way to speed up PAL to NTSC by using pulldown techniques without creating freaky speeded-up video. But if you want to speed up your videos as you propose, don't be surprised if a few readers give that idea a little chuckle. Thank goodness they're not my videos.

By the way, if you ever want to make authored HD BluRays from those videos,1080p/50 and 1080p/60 are not allowed, and many media players will choke on it. I'm afraid you'll have to carry your Oppo with you if you want to share with others.
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  #22  
01-12-2018, 01:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
New comers rarerluy understand the damage inflicted by upscaling standard def analog sources with software to HD sizes.
Your players and Tv can upscale far better with hardware than you can with software.
Correct.

Quote:
There's a proper way to speed up PAL to NTSC by using pulldown techniques without creating freaky speeded-up video. But if you want to speed up your videos as you propose, don't be surprised if a few readers give that idea a little chuckle. Thank goodness they're not my videos.
The 25>24 fps should mostly be done to undo the earlier 24>25 converting NTSC to PAL. Probably half of all conversion is done wrong, leading to some ugly restoration needs. Even those working for studios fail to understand it at times. I used to cringe.

Quote:
and many media players will choke on it.
It really depends on bitrate.
To compare, x265 720p is probably more choking than 1080p x/h264.

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  #23  
01-12-2018, 01:13 PM
rokoko rokoko is offline
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Thanks for advising, I will experiment with PAL to NTSC by using pulldown techniques.
I learned on my setup that upscaling done in SW looks better than letting HW to do it in Oppo 95, Toshiba HD-XA2.
I agree that a standard BDAM BluRay disc does not support 1080p/60, but BDAV does as per it's specs . Majority of BluRay players support BDAV, as well as they support 1080p/60 burnt on DVD-R as AVCHD.
But at the moment I just want to preserve my videos from further degradation, all format changes can be done any time later. I am afraid that my VCR player can stop working at any time as my camcorder did already, all those rubber belts, rolls, plastic parts inside start dissolving, tape tracking mechanism stops working.

Last edited by rokoko; 01-12-2018 at 01:52 PM.
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  #24  
01-12-2018, 02:32 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokoko View Post
I learned on my setup that upscaling done in SW looks better than letting HW to do it in Oppo 95, Toshiba HD-XA2.
You'll have a long debate trying to convince more experienced users of that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by rokoko View Post
I agree that a standard BDAM BluRay disc does not support 1080p/60, but BDAV does as per it's specs .
Youm might want to link readers to your specs. My specs differ. BluRay doesn't support 1080p/60. Neither BDAM nor BDAV supports 1080p/60. With AVCHD, only players that support AVCHD 2.o support it.
https://www.videohelp.com/hd#tech
https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=154533

We're discussing official BluRay authored disc formats here, not generic .ts or .m2ts encoded for HDD/memory storage playback. We'll be waiting for your posts questioning why some players choke on1080p/60.

Last edited by sanlyn; 01-12-2018 at 02:42 PM.
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  #25  
01-12-2018, 03:40 PM
rokoko rokoko is offline
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Blu Ray does support 1080p/60, it has to be authored as BDAV.
Talking about BDAV as an official BluRay authored disc format:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.m2ts
http://www.ezr8.com/m2ts.html

If BDAV burnt on BR media it will be supported by all players at standard BDMV speeds.

This is how people storing, playing, sharing 1060p/60 files that were shoot by their HD camcorders and not using any recompression.
BDAV is Blu Ray standard, one of the difference vs. BDMV that there is no menus. All players support Blu Ray BDAV. Many players support BDAV burnt on DVD-R. I am not talking here about AVCHD.

Last edited by rokoko; 01-12-2018 at 03:58 PM.
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  #26  
01-12-2018, 04:30 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rokoko View Post
Blu Ray does support 1080p/60, it has to be authored as BDAV.
Talking about BDAV as an official BluRay authored disc format:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.m2ts
http://www.ezr8.com/m2ts.html
Neither of those links says anything about 1080/50p or 1080/60p.

Many people shoot 1080p with their cameras. But they can't author BD discs with that structure. I'd be willing to accept what you say, but you haven't proven your case.

It's all moot. You'll likely never get around to authoring BluRay discs anyway.
That OPPO player's very nice. Mine lasted 6 years of everyday use. Traded it in on a newer one that accepts more media.

The first link above refers to the supported BD formats on a Wikipedia page at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ra...file_structure. See if you can find a BDAV discussion that furnishes a chart or table like the one below that shows 1080/50p or 1080/60p as valid for HD BD-ROM.



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File Type: png BDAV BDMV supported formats.png (28.3 KB, 64 downloads)

Last edited by sanlyn; 01-12-2018 at 04:40 PM.
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  #27  
01-14-2018, 10:16 AM
rokoko rokoko is offline
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Many people shoot 1080p with their cameras and author BDAV with that structure with no any re-encoding. You juts need to use the right authoring program for this. This was discussed on various forums, an example:
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/161-ca...derer-4-a.html

Tmpgenc Smart Renderer is the SW tools that authors 1080/60p files to BluRay discs as BDAV. You can simply cut unwanted fragments and during authoring phase only transition areas are re-encoded. Smart Renderer allows to author 1080/60p m2ts files arranging them in to BDAV container to conform with Blu Ray standard.
I use that tool for my camcorder files.
Try to download the demo and check how it works. Smart renderer allows to author BADAV only if files conform that spec requirements.
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  #28  
01-14-2018, 10:37 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I've used TMPGenc Smart Renderer since 2005 when it was called TMPGenc MPEG Editor. You wanna prove that it's giving you valid BDAV, cut a piece of an authored BD disc from a using TMPGEnc and post it. BDAV is an alternative consumer format to BDMV for BD video with no menus or any of the usual interactive features. It is closer to AVCHD and is mostly compatible with players that can play AVCHD.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/...o-on-a-blu-ray
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  #29  
01-14-2018, 11:09 AM
rokoko rokoko is offline
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I am using TMPGENnsc tools since year 2003. TMPGenc MPEG Editor is totally different tool comparing to Smart Renderer. Only Smart Renderer and Video Mastering Works has capabilities to author a valid BDAV.
TMPGenc MPEG Editor can not authort BDAV.
BDAV is more like a container for M2TS files.
I will try to drop a short fragment of movie authored as BDAV.
But you can also download a free demo.
I am trying to bring this idea to this forum as my contribution, as it looks like a big kept secret

I have uploaded a 12 seconds 1080/60p clip from my camcorder. I used the .mts file from my camcorder (just shot for this test) imported to Smart Renderer and authored BDAV, resulting in BDAV folder with all files. The m2ts file inside has the same properties, size as an original from camcorder:
http://www.mediafire.com/file/qvv2r30l26pqcs7/BDAV.zip

You can burn this folder to BD-R or to DVD-R. To get DVD-R with BDAV folder on it as BDAV compliant disc use ImgBurn, UDF 2.5 structure and burn it (let me know if need an advsise on ImgBurn settings to get that BDAV properly burnt on DVD-R).
Try how well it plays on any your player.
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  #30  
01-14-2018, 04:23 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Thank you for the sample.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rokoko View Post
I am using TMPGENnsc tools since year 2003. TMPGenc MPEG Editor is totally different tool comparing to Smart Renderer. Only Smart Renderer and Video Mastering Works has capabilities to author a valid BDAV.
TMPGenc MPEG Editor can not authort BDAV.
BDAV is more like a container for M2TS files.
I know that. You miss my point. I'm saying I have the same tools you do. If you've been paying attention you'll note that the product started out as "MPEG Editor" and they kept adding features. "MPEG" is still part of the title (TMPGenc MPEG Smart Renderer", with the same core MPEG edit engine they started with years ago). The name of the product isn't "TMPGenc HD Smart Renderer" or even "TMPGenc BluRay Smart Renderer" or "TMPGenc BDAV Smart Renderer". It's "TMPGenc MPEG Smart Renderer".

All that aside, if you examine what you have in the folder structure of your BDAV discs you'll see, besides nothing for interactive features, the BDAV structure is the same as AVCHD. Everybody knows that all those kids out there with HD cameras aren't shooting BluRay at 60fps. They're shooting double-rate AVCHD for Memory/progressive format. Or look at it another way: essentially BDAV/59.94i Authoring = AVCHD for progressive media.

TMPGenc's Video Mastering Works would not allow re-encoding this video for BluRay BDAV/BluRay disc at 59.94 fps, it only allowed AVCHD/Progressive at that frame size and speed -- which basically means that it's written to BluRay disc as data.

TMPGenc Authoring Works would not allow BDAV or BDMV at 59.94 fps. It would allow a "BluRay" choice only by re-encoding to 29.97 fps. The only 59.94p choice available in Authoring Works is "AVCHD for Progressive Devices". Any other form of AVCHD or BluRay would be re-encoded to 29.97 fps.

This is what I'm trying to tell you. At 1920x1080p/59.94 you maintain that you have BluRay. I maintain that what you have is the same thing as one form of AVCHD.
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  #31  
01-14-2018, 04:48 PM
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I've never been anti-format (or "format") as long as you recognize the limitations. This BDAV issues seems a lot like the old xVCD issue from 15+ years ago. It's not officially supported, but may still work due to the chips in the BD players. Sort of like MPEG-2 audio on NTSC DVD. Not official, yet often works.

I'm not sure what this has to do with PAL capture cards anymore. I'm thinking this needs to be split off to its own thread. He's not the OP, and the topic changed drastically.

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  #32  
01-14-2018, 05:07 PM
rokoko rokoko is offline
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The point is that Smart Renderer allows to author 180/60p to BDAV. The BDAV is supported by all BluRay players, as it is a part of BluRay spec. and is mandatory for all players, all players must support BDAV, and they do. Where AVCHD is supported only by a few players, and only AVCHD 2.0 by the specs supports 60p. The BDAV structure is similar but not the same as BDAV. My camcorder shoots at 1080/60p creating an actual 60fps stream. That mpeg 2 file is in compliancy to be used to author BDAV.
My mistake regarding TMPGenc's Video Mastering Works, it does not allow to author BDAV. It's been a long time ago I have been playing with this. The Smart Renderer allows. It has those setting to author 1080/60p, no ned to re encode it.
Did you have a chance to check, examine the file from BDAV folder I have uploaded, was using Smart Renderer? Or just try to download Smart Renderer demo.
If you will finally convince your self that this actually true, I would advise to make a tutorial, start separate topic on this forum. Again, I am not the only one use this tool for 1080/60p.

Anyway, I came here for capturing advise. Did not want to derail this topic.
Sorry for being off topic. I did not see Lordsmurf's post.
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  #33  
01-14-2018, 06:22 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Authoring Works allows authoring to AVCHD for Progressive Devices -- which is the same thing (exactly, bit for bit) that you're getting from Renderer. Mastering Works does the same thing but calls it AVCHD. I just did it using all three programs with your sample, and they all came out exactly the same way. Set Authoring Works for "No Menu" and you get your same BDAV structure and files.
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  #34  
01-15-2018, 03:21 AM
Dijkdj Dijkdj is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by videoimpossible View Post
Thanks a lot for sharing your experiences! Choices are countless and your help is really fundamental to orient me in the right direction.

I think I'll try to pursue both solutions: a WinXP box with old hardware, and a newer machine (Win7 or Linux) with USB capture (audio and video).

I've ordered the AIW 9600 from this ebay seller. It says that the card is still packaged and includes the cables. Seems too good to be true, and yet too hard to pass.

For the audio part, I saw similar suggestions (avoid onboard capture) on the Audacity wiki.

For the WinXP box, I think I'll order a Turtle Beach PCI "38FRH TB400-2541-02". This is the best PCI model right? I've seen it mentioned a lot on the forum.

For USB audio capture on the Linux/Win7 box, on the Audacity wiki, they recommend USB phono plus and the Behringer UCA 2xx series. The latter does not allow to change the input signal level and it takes the power from the USB itself, so I'm oriented toward the Phono Plus. Any suggestions on USB audio capture?

Finally, about using FFmpeg with the ATI 600 USB, this thread made me hope that installing the drivers and capturing in Linux wouldn't be impossible. I'll try and report...

I've also seen that audio capture can be done with the ATI 600 USB itself, but sometimes produces clipping, which requires to adjust the OEM settings in winreg. I guess this would be missing in the linux firmware. In general, how good do you think that the audio quality of ATI 600 USB is, compared to a separate USB capture like Phono Plus?

Thanks again!!
I bought that AIW from ebay that you mentioned. It looks brandnew, the capture box is included, but.... the output cables are not..... So there is no way to connect a display. The output cable is so special that noone has it.

I tried some capturing with Remote desktop, but its a lot of hassle. I'm returning it.
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  #35  
02-03-2018, 11:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dijkdj View Post
I bought that AIW from ebay that you mentioned. It looks brandnew, the capture box is included, but.... the output cables are not..... So there is no way to connect a display. The output cable is so special that noone has it. I tried some capturing with Remote desktop, but its a lot of hassle. I'm returning it.
I had a feeling those cards had no input. The old "includes everything pictured" auctions, casually forgetting to mention this glaring omission. The seller is an ass. It's why I didn't bother to buy any, even if cheap.

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  #36  
02-04-2018, 04:06 AM
spanak spanak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Quote:
Buy the ATI TV Wonder HD 600 USB 2.0 stick for $90 and use FFmpeg on a modern Linux system (which I'm very familiar with), using the built-in audio input to capture audio at the same time.
Judging from the experience of others, it would be a disaster even more difficult to configure and manage than your XP option. I don't know anyone who would advise such a system. For example, how would you control input signal levels with ffmpeg to avoid illegal video levels, and how would you get ATI's capture drivers to run? You're better off with the ATI 600 in a Win7 PC, which will actually work.
Maybe I am bit late to the party, but I would like to share my experience with Linux, to show everyone it is not scary at all. I have already captured successfully two tapes, and I must say I am very pleased with the result.

Setting up the ATI 600 is in fact much easier under Linux. There is a detailed manual, including hardware overview, in LinuxTV. But the short story is - install xc3028-l firmware from your package manager, or if you don't have it, download it from steventooth.net, then copy it to /lib/firmware. That is, if you have kernel 2.6.27+, which you probably will, unless you want to experiment with distributions from 15 years ago.

Configuring is done using "Qt V4l2 test utility". All the options, that ATI control panel under Windows has, are available here. Just make sure you "open" the correct video device - in my case it was /dev/video1. The screenshots below illustrate my words.

Monitoring the levels is possible using ffmpeg, and in my opinion it is much more flexible than VirtualDub. The fancy filtering guide in their documentation shows how to visualize the video input as histogram, waveform and vectorscope. I prefer using a waveform to verify I am within the safe limits, because I understand it better than the histogram, but it is a matter of taste.

And that's it! You are ready to start capturing. You do not need to worry neither about the driver, or if it is the correct version, nor about ATi's stuff.

As for built-in audio chips, I am a 100% with lordsmurf and sanlyn - find something else. Personally, I use Alesis IO/2.


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File Type: jpg qv4l2-ati600-1.jpg (64.2 KB, 10 downloads)
File Type: jpg qv4l2-ati600-2.jpg (37.4 KB, 7 downloads)
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The following users thank spanak for this useful post: hodgey (02-04-2018), lordsmurf (02-05-2018)
  #37  
02-05-2018, 12:10 AM
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The ATI 600 USB audio works well, if you can hack the registry (Windows). Unsure what exists in Linux for similar workaround.

Beware audio lag when using external audio for the card. There is delay to be compensated for.

I'll have to try this soon. Using Xubuntu 16 x86 on that system.

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  #38  
02-05-2018, 03:39 AM
spanak spanak is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
The ATI 600 USB audio works well, if you can hack the registry (Windows). Unsure what exists in Linux for similar workaround.

Beware audio lag when using external audio for the card. There is delay to be compensated for.

I'll have to try this soon. Using Xubuntu 16 x86 on that system.
Are you are talking about lowering the sound volume from Windows registry? If yes, then there is no need to "hack" anything. ATI 600 appears as another recording device in the audio mixer (at least in KDE 5) and it can be adjusted there.

Another option is to set the volume in Qt V4L2. You can see it on the second screenshot in my previous post.

I can't comment audio quality, though. I have never heard of Empiatech audio chips before I bought the ATi 600, so they are the same as Realtek to me. This is why I prefer using my Alesis audio interface, that I know is of good quality and I have already done many recordings with. Music is my hobby, by the way, this is why I have it.

As for audio lag, yes you are right, it is always there, and it has to be compensated one way or another. What I do is I capture audio through JACK (something like ASIO drivers in Windows), so that I can adjust the latency. Just like in ASIO it depends on buffer size and number, and the sampling frequency. It is usually not much - less than 50 ms, but I shift back audio to match video perfectly anyway.

Attaching another screenshot, this time of JACK's settings.


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