Quantcast Convert VHS/Hi8 to digital without TBC? - digitalFAQ Forum
  #1  
02-19-2018, 02:07 PM
ExUSAF_AV ExUSAF_AV is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 24
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I have been reading this and other chains and I have heard of two TBCs that are highly touted - the DataVideo TBC-1000 and the rare green AVT-8710. The first is no longer available new and while the second is available it appears to be the defective black model. I am nervous about going on Ebay for used equipment since I really have no idea what I'm getting and have gotten burned on other items before.

I am trying to determine the best option to transfer old family and special tapes and whether the equipment I have at my disposal is adequte or if a TBC device is the only way to insure a clean copy from a wide variety of old VHS and Hi-8 tapes to digital media. I have the following equipment:

JVC HR-S8000U SVHS video player with SVHS output
JVC DR MV100 Combination DVD/VCR with HDMI out
Canopus ADVC-100 analog to video convertor with a firewire output
Hauppage HD PVR-2 - which outputs a .ts or .mts or .mp4 file which I can manipulate with
Sony DCR TRV-350 Digital Hi-8 Camcorder - which outputs a DV file of approximately 13 GB/hour
A Windows 7 computer with SSD and the Windows Media Player package and ArcSoft ShowBiz, and Video ReDo 5 to allow capture and editing of a wide variety of files, including .ts, .mts, .mp4, .mpg, and digital video.

Would any of these devices provide any TBC capability? I understand based on other posts that the Canopus ADVC-100 apparently isn't a true TBC but I have noted that it apparently has the ability to bypass the MacroVision protection and allow me to transfer pre-recorded tapes, which would seem to me to be some variant of TBC. What about using the Sony DCR TRV-350 as a pass-through device?

I have used the following combinations:

For Hi-8 tapes, both digital (1 hour) and analog (2 hours):
The Sony Hi-8 Camcorder is used with a Firewire capture card and allows me to transfer files directly from the camcorder to the computer using the Windows Media package that allows me to actually control the camcorder from the computer.

For pre-recorded VHS tapes as well as other VHS tapes:
The JVC DR MV100 Combination DVD/VCR feeding the Hauppage HD PVR-2, which appears to negate MacroVision when using HDMI output from the VCR to HDMI input to the PVR-2

Also for pre-recorded VHS tapes as well as other VHS tapes:
The JVC HR-S8000U SVHS video player - or apparently any quality VCR - feeding the ADVC-100, which outputs a DV file and removes MacroVision with the correct pressing and holding of the capture button.
Reply With Quote
Someday, 12:01 PM
admin's Avatar
Ads / Sponsors
 
Join Date: ∞
Posts: 42
Thanks: ∞
Thanked 42 Times in 42 Posts
  #2  
02-19-2018, 04:08 PM
hodgey hodgey is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: Norway
Posts: 1,000
Thanked 232 Times in 199 Posts
Quote:
What about using the Sony DCR TRV-350 as a pass-through device?
The DCR-TRV 350 does have some TBC functionality built in that is enabled on pass-through. It won't allow recording stuff with macrovision, but it does correct some jitter. (I've used the feature on the earlier model 330, but people here report similar behaviour for the 350.) There is an AV -> DV option in the menu that has to be enabled for it to work. There is also noise reduction which can be enabled.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank hodgey for this useful post: ExUSAF_AV (02-19-2018), lordsmurf (02-20-2018)
  #3  
02-19-2018, 06:20 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,230 Times in 968 Posts
DV was never designed as a capture resource for analog tapes. It was never designed for restoration or repair work. It's an inferior way of digitizing analog sources. It's a shame you have to take multiple quality hits by using it for lossy capture and taking additional quality hits when converting to usable outputs for anything other than PC playback. There is no way to recover what is lost and degraded through this kind of encoding. This forum and other forums have been advising against it for years.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: lordsmurf (02-20-2018)
  #4  
02-19-2018, 10:31 PM
ExUSAF_AV ExUSAF_AV is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 24
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Thank you for the response but the actual capture is an AVI file with approximately 13 GB per hour of recording. I'm not talking about recording to a tape but directly into the computer. Is this considered DV?
Reply With Quote
  #5  
02-20-2018, 02:24 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,230 Times in 968 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExUSAF_AV View Post
Thank you for the response but the actual capture is an AVI file with approximately 13 GB per hour of recording. I'm not talking about recording to a tape but directly into the computer. Is this considered DV?
It most certainly is DV.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExUSAF_AV View Post
What about using the Sony DCR TRV-350 as a pass-through device?
Unfortunately it degrades the incoming analog signal by encoding it to lossy DV.

This thread deals with the original author's workflow in capturing analog source tapes to lossless media.
Split from Learn about proper VHS capturing to PC methods? -LS

DV is not lossless. The last thing you want in a restoration project is lossy encoding/re-encoding, DV compression artifacts, and DV color damage.

Last edited by sanlyn; 02-20-2018 at 02:35 AM.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: lordsmurf (02-20-2018)
  #6  
02-20-2018, 03:07 AM
lordsmurf's Avatar
lordsmurf lordsmurf is offline
Site Staff | Video
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Posts: 10,474
Thanked 1,819 Times in 1,575 Posts
I need to move this to a new thread of its own...

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExUSAF_AV View Post
I have been reading this and other chains and I have heard of two TBCs that are highly touted - the DataVideo TBC-1000 and the rare green AVT-8710. The first is no longer available new and while the second is available it appears to be the defective black model. I am nervous about going on Ebay for used equipment since I really have no idea what I'm getting and have gotten burned on other items before.
Yes, eBay can be a bad place for video gear. Lots non-working "working" gear, or "tested" by seeing if the power LEDs lit up. Just terrible stuff goes on there. It's turned into a video hardware dumping ground. This ignores that 50%+ items are now "for parts or repair", and truly are fubar.

Quote:
I am trying to determine the best option to transfer old family and special tapes and whether the equipment I have at my disposal is adequte or if a TBC device is the only way to insure a clean copy from a wide variety of old VHS and Hi-8 tapes to digital media.
Big sentence, lots of topics crammed together. Will try to dissect...

Quote:
I have the following equipment:
JVC HR-S8000U SVHS video player with SVHS output
Not a suggested model. But will it work? Maybe. Need to see samples. Does this model have an internal TBC? I forget offhand. A couple of members here have them, and like them, though at least one doesn't use it for transfer. He's seemingly just a nostalgia video buff.

Quote:
JVC DR MV100 Combination DVD/VCR with HDMI out
This is a typical low-end DVD recorder, nothing special. Not the same as the DR-M100 that has LSI Logic DMN=86xx chipsets. Or DM-M10. But for SP mode only, and understand it will do no cleanup of the image, it does function. For the Hi8, which doesn't really have chroma noise like VHS, it will suffice.

Quote:
Canopus ADVC-100 analog to video convertor with a firewire output
It's lossy DV, and can be pretty destructive of analog formats like VHS and Hi8. The DV format was intended to be a shooting format, not conversion format. Only Canopus tried to push that on users. Understand that is technology from the era of a Pentium III, late 90s.

Quote:
Hauppage HD PVR-2 - which outputs a .ts or .mts or .mp4 file which I can manipulate with
You don't want this. Those are intended for recording HD TV sources, not analog. It will make a mess more than not. It expects high quality, often progressive, type sources. You don't want to compress an analog capture to H.264 (MP4) or a TS.

Quote:
Sony DCR TRV-350 Digital Hi-8 Camcorder - which outputs a DV file of approximately 13 GB/hour
Again, DV. Cameras started to add in the "conversion" function as a toss-in extra feature to woo consumers in the late 90s and early 00s. Not because it was a good idea, for the sake of video quality.

Quote:
A Windows 7 computer with SSD
Fine.

Quote:
and the Windows Media Player package
You should use this at all.

Quote:
and ArcSoft ShowBiz,
Don't use ArcSoft ShowBiz. It's terrible. Low-end software, often free with hardware.

Quote:
and Video ReDo 5 to allow capture and editing of a wide variety of files, including .ts, .mts, .mp4, .mpg, and digital video.
VideoReDo works fine for editing MPEG -- I prefer Womble myself, its competing product.

Quote:
Would any of these devices provide any TBC capability? I understand based on other posts that the Canopus ADVC-100 apparently isn't a true TBC but I have noted that it apparently has the ability to bypass the MacroVision protection and allow me to transfer pre-recorded tapes, which would seem to me to be some variant of TBC. What about using the Sony DCR TRV-350 as a pass-through device?
hodgey gave good answer here.

Quote:
I have used the following combinations:
For Hi-8 tapes, both digital (1 hour) and analog (2 hours):
The Sony Hi-8 Camcorder is used with a Firewire capture card and allows me to transfer files directly from the camcorder to the computer using the Windows Media package that allows me to actually control the camcorder from the computer.
Hi8 isn't digital. Hi8 is analog. Digital8 is digital. It seems you have both formats?
Ditch Windows Media, it's messing with your video. Use the freeware WinDV instead.

Quote:
For pre-recorded VHS tapes as well as other VHS tapes:
The JVC DR MV100 Combination DVD/VCR feeding the Hauppage HD PVR-2, which appears to negate MacroVision when using HDMI output from the VCR to HDMI input to the PVR-2
I doubt this looks good. Post a sample.

Quote:
Also for pre-recorded VHS tapes as well as other VHS tapes:
The JVC HR-S8000U SVHS video player - or apparently any quality VCR - feeding the ADVC-100, which outputs a DV file and removes MacroVision with the correct pressing and holding of the capture button.
This might work fine. Again, need to see samples. If you were on a Mac, I'd consider it passable, since Macs really have no choice but to work with DV hardware.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ExUSAF_AV View Post
Thank you for the response but the actual capture is an AVI file with approximately 13 GB per hour of recording. I'm not talking about recording to a tape but directly into the computer. Is this considered DV?
- DV is a format of video.
- MiniDV is a tape using the DV format.

Not the same thing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Unfortunately it degrades the incoming analog signal by encoding it to lossy DV.
DV is not lossless. The last thing you want in a restoration project is lossy encoding/re-encoding, DV compression artifacts, and DV color damage.
To add:

- NTSC DV is 4:1:1
- PAL DV is 4:2:0
- Most analog tape formats are equivalent to 4:2:2.

You're literally losing about 50% of your color data in NTSC. With PAL, the loss isn't that stark, as it comparable to DVD-Video (4:2:0), which most people find acceptable. Not the same 4:2:0 siting, but close enough.

For any sort of restoration, or editing (of non-DV shot sources), you want lossless.

However, that may be a sidetrack conversation, as you're may not wanting to restore or edit, just convert for watching.

Quote:
This thread deals with the original author's workflow in capturing analog source tapes to lossless media.
And why it needs to be split...

@ExUSAF_AV: Be sure to subscribe to the thread: http://www.digitalFAQ.com/forum/subs...ription&t=8501
Not automatic when I manually move/create new one.

- Did my advice help you? Then become a Premium Member and support this site.
- Find television shows, cartoons, DVDs and Blu-ray releases at the TVPast forums.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank lordsmurf for this useful post: ExUSAF_AV (02-23-2018)
  #7  
02-20-2018, 04:19 PM
ExUSAF_AV ExUSAF_AV is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 24
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I see most on this board are saying DV isn't the way to go, at least for converting analog tapes. I didn't realize there was so much compression since the file was so large. However, if I am using the Sony DCR - TRV350 only with the Digital8 or Hi8 tapes - Digital8 is one hour and Hi8 is two hours so Digital apparently has twice the capstan speed - the DV output from the camcorder appears to be the only way to input directly into my computer. Now this Handy Cam also has an SVHS output along with the standard composite video. Would the SVHS output actually be a better source if the video is properly input into the computer via a card with SVHS input?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
02-20-2018, 04:54 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,230 Times in 968 Posts
There's no such thing as "SVHS output". Are you talking about a camera that can play SVHS tapes, or a camera that has s-video output? SVHS and s-video are two different things, and neither has anything to do with the other. SVHS is a tape format. S-video is a type of 75-ohm signal transmission with its associated cables and circuitry by which luma and chroma are transmitted separately through discrete conductors.
Reply With Quote
The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: ExUSAF_AV (02-23-2018)
  #9  
02-20-2018, 05:48 PM
ExUSAF_AV ExUSAF_AV is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 24
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Sorry about the sloppy terminology. Yes, the Sony DCR TRV350 Digital8 Camcorder has an S-Video output jack in addition to the iLink DV output and a composite video jack. I had always assumed the DV output would be superior to the S-Video but now I'm not so sure.

-- merged --

First and foremost, thank you Sanlyn, lordsmurf, and hodgey for your prompt and informative responses. My Sony DCR TRV350 Handy Cam has DV, S-Video, and standard composite video output. It plays both Digital8 and the old Hi8 analog tapes, although the Digital8 only plays half as long (1 hour), I assume due to tape transport speed. Since the Handy Cam is the only option when it comes to playing these tapes, which is the better output option into the computer, DV or S-Video, since those appear to be the only two viable options available? I dismiss the composite video since that would appear to be the poorest choice and only used if you have a device without S-Video input. I had always assumed DV would be the better choice even thought that might not be the best choice for pass-through.

Also, if I want to take advantage of the limited TBC function of this camera, should I then use the S-Video output option since DV would introduce lossy compression of the video?
Reply With Quote
  #10  
02-24-2018, 02:43 PM
imgoinmad imgoinmad is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Brinnon, WA
Posts: 7
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExUSAF_AV View Post
Sorry about the sloppy terminology. Yes, the Sony DCR TRV350 Digital8 Camcorder has an S-Video output jack in addition to the iLink DV output and a composite video jack. I had always assumed the DV output would be superior to the S-Video but now I'm not so sure.

-- merged --

First and foremost, thank you Sanlyn, lordsmurf, and hodgey for your prompt and informative responses. My Sony DCR TRV350 Handy Cam has DV, S-Video, and standard composite video output. It plays both Digital8 and the old Hi8 analog tapes, although the Digital8 only plays half as long (1 hour), I assume due to tape transport speed. Since the Handy Cam is the only option when it comes to playing these tapes, which is the better output option into the computer, DV or S-Video, since those appear to be the only two viable options available? I dismiss the composite video since that would appear to be the poorest choice and only used if you have a device without S-Video input. I had always assumed DV would be the better choice even thought that might not be the best choice for pass-through.

Also, if I want to take advantage of the limited TBC function of this camera, should I then use the S-Video output option since DV would introduce lossy compression of the video?
This poses a valid question for me...since digital8 can play video8 or hi8 tapes, is it altering the quality of those analog tapes on playback? Or...as ExUSAF_AV is suggesting, perhaps only when not using the S-Video output?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
02-24-2018, 05:14 PM
SOXSYS SOXSYS is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 15
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Hello to everyone!

I really must thank you all for giving precious advices, especially LordSmurf and his colleagues. I am still learning on how to convert and save VHS, Hi8 and miniDV cassettes for my sons and their families one day, into digital format. I live in Italy, so it is not always easy to get all the equipment that you mention in your threads as sometimes you refer to the material intended only for USA market.

What I did until now is start purchasing the

EQUIPMENT

1) I ordered Panasonic-NV-HS1000 (eBay Germany) as my Bang & Olufsen VX5000 plays very badly (in B/W and with a lot of errors and differently every time) perfectly good VHS cassettes. All my cassettes are of a high and pro quality and almost unused as I made copies to store them. I hope this “new” machine will be in order. NV-HS1000 is quite expensive here, USD 450-1.000 if they are in good condition.

2) I have also ordered ATI All-In-Wonder 9600 (eBay USA) as I do have an old P4 computer with AGP slots. On my main machine, I have AGP free slot as well. The "big" machine is a 4x4 Xeon W5580 workstation with Intel chipset 5520 (DELL Precision T7500), 64 GB of RAM, nVidia Quadro FX4800, Creative SB X-Fi (and another one that is HD Audio installed on the MB). This machine is from Jan 2010 and it works great as I do take regular care of it. The OS presently installed is W10 Enterprise x64 on a 256GB Samsung SSD. Other HDD is 600 GB Seagate SAS SCSI + a bunch of other HDD ( 16 TB) for backup and work attached. I DO NOT WANT TO TOUCH THIS CONFIGURATION, but I plan to install WXP x86 on a HDD and run it on the same machine separately from the present configuration.
I have also the IEEE 1394 (Firewire) 6 pin on that machine to connect MiniDV for transfer.

3) Said that… and what LodrSmurf explained in many occasions, I have to go further now. Question is how? No TBC available of those mentioned by you guys. No AVToolbox AVT-8710 or Cypress CTB-100, DataVideo TBC-1000, TBC-2000, TBC-3000, TBC-4000, TBC-100. Noting available. I was thinking about Canopus until I found you guys here. Especially LordSmurf has it against them. So I listen and that is out of question. WHAT AND WHERE TO BUY? If I got it right , I must have an external TBC.

LordSmurf if you have something ready to sell I am interested.

THE PROCESS OF CONVERSION

4.1) For the VHS conversion I intend to use the following setup:
A) NV-HS1000
B) TBC (what to buy???, whatever you mentioned is not available any more)
C) WXP SP2 on the a/m workstation
D) HuffYUV + VirtualDUB
E) RESULT - Most probably AVI format if I manage to get it right (it is to be tried first and understood – did not come to that yet and must say that I feel like an idiot, but hopefully I will come to it).

4.2) For the conversion of Hi8, I intend to change just the letter A):
A) I thought I was OK, but my Sony Handycam CCD-TR705E does play, but I cannot see anything in the viewfinder while playing (just snow), so probably I will have to buy something to play the 8 and Hi8 cassettes. I am thinking of buying Sony EV-S9000. What do you think?
Other passes as above.

4.3) For the conversion of MiniDV, I also intend to change just the letter A):
A) Thank God, my Sony DCR-PC110E, still works perfectly and (at least in the viewfinder) I get a perfect picture. An option is to go also for a combined pro JVC VS30, that I found new/unused on the internet.

5) My questions are simple. Answers might be less simple. HAHAHA.
- Do you approve my strategy, steps and equipment?
- Where to buy a good not price killing TBC? And what to buy? Is there something else that can replace it?
- Do you approve the workstation for the conversion under WXP SP2 (maybe I would also need to change the audio card, but I am not sure which)?
- Is it ok to “catch” the analog material on the HDD/SSD and work from there in the editing software? I basically think I will transfer everything raw as shoot to quality BDs from the HDD and keep the copies on the HDD for editing (for example in PremierePro).

Many thanks in advance for any comments.

God bless you!
Reply With Quote
  #12  
02-25-2018, 06:17 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,230 Times in 968 Posts
Interesting questions, but instead of hijacking another user's thread you should have started your own.
Perhaps a moderator will rectify this and move your post into a new thread.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
02-26-2018, 03:26 PM
SOXSYS SOXSYS is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 15
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
ExUSAF_AV SORRY IF THIS LOOKED LIKE A HIJACK. . IT WAS NO MY INTENTION. SORRU AGAIN IF LOOKED LIKE THAT.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
02-26-2018, 03:27 PM
SOXSYS SOXSYS is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 15
Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Hi Sanlyn,
I am sorry if I have, as you say "hijacked", another user's thread. It was not my intention.. Actually, some forums prefer not to open new threads for the same subject, that I found in line with this.
I’ll open a new thread.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
02-26-2018, 04:24 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
Premium Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: N. Carolina and NY, USA
Posts: 3,648
Thanked 1,230 Times in 968 Posts
The reason I suggested a new thread is because your question does divert from the original post. The main reason is that because the thread title doesn't change, those who have already seen the first several replies will assume that there is no new information and wouldn't see your question.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
02-26-2018, 10:13 PM
ExUSAF_AV ExUSAF_AV is offline
Free Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 24
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
No blood, no foul, apology accepted - I was not offended in the slightest. Sanlyn does make a good point, though. If your topic is not the topic on the original thread it may be ignored.
Reply With Quote
Reply




Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Convert ~150 VHS-C and Hi8 to digital; game plan? chris98891 Capture, Record, Transfer 8 03-22-2017 08:59 AM
Convert Hi8 to digital for Final Cut Pro (FCP) editing? gb27 Capture, Record, Transfer 10 12-18-2014 07:53 PM
What's the best way to convert family photos and videos to digital ? gambit83 General Discussion 2 08-06-2012 04:31 PM
Best easy method to convert S-VHS-C to digital formats? sVHScHELP Project Planning, Workflows 10 06-24-2012 03:57 PM
Beta home tapes to DVD? How to Convert Betamax to digital? rocko Project Planning, Workflows 4 07-14-2011 11:23 PM

Thread Tools



 
All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:33 AM