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  #1  
05-09-2019, 05:38 PM
bentley bentley is offline
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Hi! New member here, planning to digitize about 300 VHS tapes. They were taped from the mid-90s to early 2000s, on a variety of VCRs and at all possible speeds -- so quality will be all over the place, I'm sure.

I'd like to capture them losslessly for eventual editing later on. (Yup, I'm aware that this will take A LOT of memory!!)

I've bought the hardware needed to set up a workflow, but need some advice on software and some other small questions. I'm hoping you guys can help me out!

I own:

VCR: a JVC SR-MV40.
External TBC: a TVOneTask 1T-TBC.
Capture card: a Pinnacle 710-USB. (Device only, no software.)
Computer: a Dell Vostro 3300 laptop from late 2010, running 32-bit Windows 7, with a 320GB hard drive.

(I can give you more details if you need them. Please ask!)

I plan to use this computer JUST for capturing. HOWEVER, I'm a native Mac user, and don't know anything about PCs -- so I've got a lot to learn, and you all might have to explain things using small words.

Questions:

CABLES: From VCR to TBC, I assume I should use S-Video (not Composite). Does the brand of cable matter? Will any S-video cable do, or are there some recognized "best" and "worst" brands?

Audio cables, from the VCR straight to the Pinnacle. Same question; are there good/bad brands, or will any old red-and-white audio cables do?

Finally, from the Pinnacle to the computer -- looks like I'll need a USB cable where one end is square and the other is standard USB-port. Any good/bad brands?

AUDIO SYNC: Since the video is going VCR>TBC>Pinnacle, and the audio is going straight from VCR>Pinnacle, will there be an audio-sync issue with the capture? Does the external TBC delay the video by a frame or so?

SETTINGS: I gather that most of these devices have some advanced settings. Do I need to use any of them for a "normal" capture? Or can I just insert a tape and digitize, only worrying about the advanced settings if I come across a problematic tape?

SOFTWARE: What software should I use to capture losslessly? From reading on this forum, I gather that means huffyuv or lagarith AVI, correct? Is my computer "good enough" to handle lossless capturing? Also, do I need special software to help the computer talk to the Pinnacle device?

(For the record, I'm aware that 300 tapes at 35GB/hr will take a tremendous amount of space. I've got quite a few terabytes ready to hold it all -- and at a later date, I plan to edit it all down.)

WHAT ELSE? Am I overlooking anything else?

That's all the questions I have at the moment! Please let me know if you need any more information. Thanks to everyone who responds -- I can't wait to get started digitizing all these tapes!
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  #2  
05-09-2019, 11:33 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Welcome to the forum!


Actually your questions have been answered many times. But here are some short summaries and some links. Maybe you saw some of them, maybe not:

Quote:
Originally Posted by bentley View Post
I'd like to capture them losslessly for eventual editing later on. (Yup, I'm aware that this will take A LOT of memory!!)
Capture doesn't take a lot of memory. Many of my early captures were on Win2000 machines with 512MB of memory. But I think you're referring to hard drive space, not to RAM. Hard drive space is called storage, not memory. VHS is captured to 720x480 (NTSC() or 720x576 (PAL) in YUY2 color using huffyuv or Lagarith lossless compression, and runs about 30 to 35GB per hour. Don't capture VHS as RGB color. VHS isn't stored on tape as RGB. it's analog YPbPr 4:2:2, the equivalent in digital video being YUY2.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bentley View Post
CABLES: From VCR to TBC, I assume I should use S-Video (not Composite). Does the brand of cable matter? Will any S-video cable do, or are there some recognized "best" and "worst" brands?
This is much debate about this. The answer depends on how well you can see, how much everything looks alike to you, or how much you care one way or the other. There is a forum thread about the issue that was last updated a month ago. The thread lists Pearstone cable from B&H as an example of decent wire, but it's been replaced by an older generic design and is no longer the same cable. The thread also mentions a series of budget s-video cables from Recoton under different brands, but the cable is no longer in distribution and many ads for that cable sell stuff that isn't like the original. That leaves the BluejeansCable YC-2 as best and Acoustic Research Pro Series II S-Video Cables, a very close second-best, as my currently active and affordable brand-name recommendations. There are more expensive "others" but they're uniformly inferior and over-priced. Amazon Basics, CablesToGo, BestBuy, etc., still sell cheap generics that look cheap, look generic, and look exactly like every other cheap generic, which is why they are preferred by users who insist that everything looks and sounds alike, regardless of brand, materials, or price. Your move. What are the best s-video cables to get?.

If your PC monitor and TV aren't calibrated, it makes little difference because everything will indeed look alike and inaccurate. Uncalibrated monitors shouldn't be used for video anyway. Note that most laptop display screen can't be calibrated to any great degree of accuracy. The major limitation is usually their graphics cards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bentley View Post
Audio cables, from the VCR straight to the Pinnacle. Same question; are there good/bad brands, or will any old red-and-white audio cables do?
Same answer. If everything sounds alike to you, it doesn't matter. The other opinion is that $500-and-up cables aren't worth it for VHS, but that stranded-core cable and most generic brands really do sound alike -- poor soundstage, grubby bass, strident or confused treble, and so forth. Solid-core 18 gauge, true 75-ohm audio wire sounds much cleaner and has the advantage of not making generic audio wire sound even worse than it actually does. Gold connectors have nothing to do with sound quality. If the cable company and pro broadcasters uses copper-chrome alloys, why do you have to use cheap pseudo-gold or silver plugs? I use alternative Belden 1694A from BlueJeansCable (lower part of the website page), which I think are cleaner than BJ's hyped-up stranded-core LC-1's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bentley View Post
AUDIO SYNC: Since the video is going VCR>TBC>Pinnacle, and the audio is going straight from VCR>Pinnacle, will there be an audio-sync issue with the capture? Does the external TBC delay the video by a frame or so?
Makes no difference. Most TBC's for analog don't have audio inputs anyway.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bentley View Post
SETTINGS: I gather that most of these devices have some advanced settings. Do I need to use any of them for a "normal" capture? Or can I just insert a tape and digitize, only worrying about the advanced settings if I come across a problematic tape?
...
SOFTWARE: What software should I use to capture losslessly? From reading on this forum, I gather that means huffyuv or lagarith AVI, correct? Is my computer "good enough" to handle lossless capturing? Also, do I need special software to help the computer talk to the Pinnacle device?
"Normal" doesn't mean anything, not even for problem tapes. The YUY2 format is "normal' for VHS and so is interlace and hard-telecine. What most pros call "normal" for VHS is a capture that doesn't create new damage and which confines signal strength to a 'legal' digital video safe luminance range of y=16-235. Our updated VirtualDub capture thread explains how it's measured and done.The only filters normally used to control that range are Brightness and Contrast, using your capture drivers' proc amp controls which are accessible in VirtualDub capture.

Every VHS tape is a "problem tape" and every one will differ, even retail editions. Some problems are worse than others. Some tapes require extensive cleanup, some don't need very much. The process is known as restoration and repair. Don't confuse that with "edit", which doesn't include restoration and repair. Regardless, luminance values are always set for safe input levels. Color correction is a different matter. Color correction during capture for VHS is an exercise in clinical masochism and is often very difficult in YUV. It's best done in post-procesing.

Virtualdub's updated capture guide covers these capture issues: Capturing with VirtualDub [Settings Guide].

Quote:
Originally Posted by bentley View Post
AUDIO SYNC: Since the video is going VCR>TBC>Pinnacle, and the audio is going straight from VCR>Pinnacle, will there be an audio-sync issue with the capture? Does the external TBC delay the video by a frame or so?
External frame-level tbc's correct the signal's frame rate for exact output rates for NTSC or PAL, with no room for variation. They don't process audio. a/v sync depends mostly on accurate frame rates.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bentley View Post
I plan to use this computer JUST for capturing. HOWEVER, I'm a native Mac user, and don't know anything about PCs -- so I've got a lot to learn, and you all might have to explain things using small words.
Macs are lossy DV-centric and not recommended for lossless capture or processing, even when it's possible, which is
difficult. Restoration and repair apps aren't available on a Mac. What you can do is "edit" (cut and join, add transitions or special effects, etc.). You can do some decent encoding and color correction with the right software add-ons, but software for restoration and repair can't be installed on consumer-level Macs -- they're found only on custom-designed Macs for corporate outfits like Disney and pro mastering shops, and cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, not to mention the training and payscales for their designers and operators. In Windows you would use Avisynth and/or Virtualdub for that. There are tons of free and paid Windows software for edits and final encoding. Restoration and repair includes cleanup of chroma noise/rainbows, spots/ripples/dropouts, DCT edge ringing and ghosting, invalid bright- and black-level problems, possible recovery of clipped video values, correction for chromna shift and color bleed, removal of tape noise, cleaning and even-up of borders and head-switching noise, inverse telecine with TIVTC and pro-level deinterlacing with QTGMC with specialized high-precision resizers for square-pixel output for web mounting and streaming work ....and so forth. Browse our restoration forum for hundreds of example threads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bentley View Post
a Dell Vostro 3300 laptop from late 2010, running 32-bit Windows 7, with a 320GB hard drive
The recommended capture and post-processing software and filters are all 32-bit. You should not capture directly to the same hard drive or partition that contains the operating system, or you will have i/o interference and congestion issues. This is especially true with laptops and slow hard drives. Some people capture to external drives, but they must be 7200 rpm USB3 drives or faster. A.C.-powered external drivers are better. You are going to have a lot of problems using a laptop for video work. Their display screens are especially unsuitable for graphics and video.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bentley View Post
I can't wait to get started digitizing all these tapes!
Yep, I started with over 360 hours of recorded VHS tape. My biggest problem was losing patience. Take it a few tapes at a time and rely on learning the basics step by step. The work will then proceed more smoothly if you take it easy at first. Don't hesitate to post questions. and whenever you can post unaltered short video samples directly in the forum. We'll tell you how if you don't know. Don't post to UTube (we can't answer or respond for their horrible re-processing() and don't post off-site (most readers don't reply to off-site samples, and when the samples disappear your post and question will be useless).

Good luck and smooth sailing.
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  #3  
05-10-2019, 06:43 AM
colony colony is offline
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Hello sanlyn,

So the the Pearstone Premium Series S-Video cables are not what they were? Do you happen to have the old packaging ID numbers for various lengths?
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05-10-2019, 08:14 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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I bought those cables in 2004/2005. They were imported by Recoton and sold under various labels including RCA and in bulk Ziplock bags at Amazon and a few other outfits. Price started at $10.00 for 6ft. Over the years I used them at 30 feet or so. The barrel design for Pearstone now looks like those of cables I once tried and discarded. The same newer barrel design appears in cables pictured by Amazon under different brands. The AR PRO II's are selling for lower prices now that AR is out of the cable business and excess inventory is being sold off. In the meantime I also tried newer cables and returned all of them or threw them away. Fortunately I have plenty of old ones that I still use for capture and for TV.
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  #5  
05-10-2019, 10:12 AM
colony colony is offline
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Thanks. Any opinion on the Radio Shack cables of 10-20 years ago? Was it you are someone else who talked about audio cables degrading over time? I have a number of German cables, solidly built, but from the 80/90's.
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05-10-2019, 10:36 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colony View Post
Thanks. Any opinion on the Radio Shack cables of 10-20 years ago?
They were terrible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by colony View Post
Was it you are someone else who talked about audio cables degrading over time?
Not that I recall.
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05-10-2019, 02:14 PM
bentley bentley is offline
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Hi, Sanlyn. Thanks very much for the detailed answers and the links! My apologies for asking already-answered questions -- I did try to look around the forum before posting, but apparently not well enough.

I'll look into the cables you suggested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Capture doesn't take a lot of memory. But I think you're referring to hard drive space, not to RAM. Hard drive space is called storage, not memory.
Whoops, yup, I was indeed referring to hard-drive storage space. Thanks for that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
External frame-level tbc's correct the signal's frame rate... They don't process audio.
Understood. That's what my question was referring to. When digitizing, the audio is going straight from the VCR into the computer -- whereas the video is going through the external TBC on the way to the computer. From what I understand, the TBC generates a small (1 frame?) delay while it buffers and stabilizes the framerate.

I was asking (1) is that understanding correct?, and (2) if so, does the video's 1-frame delay create an A/V sync issue in the digitized file that's noticeable and needs to be fixed later?

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Macs are lossy DV-centric and not recommended for lossless capture or processing, even when it's possible, which is difficult. Restoration and repair apps aren't available on a Mac.
Yep! Which is why I'm using a PC for this project, even though I don't know the first thing about PCs. Should be a fun learning curve.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
You should not capture directly to the same hard drive or partition that contains the operating system... This is especially true with laptops and slow hard drives. Some people capture to external drives, but they must be 7200 rpm USB3 drives or faster. A.C.-powered external drivers are better. You are going to have a lot of problems using a laptop for video work.
The main reason I planned to use this laptop is that it's the only PC in the house. Though if it's not good enough, I'm not averse to buying something new. Is there a universally-agreed-on "good capturing computer" that you could point me to? (Or an existing thread on the subject?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
Take it a few tapes at a time and rely on learning the basics step by step. Don't hesitate to post questions. Good luck and smooth sailing.
That's the plan! Thanks again for the welcome and the advice!
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05-10-2019, 08:17 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bentley View Post
When digitizing, the audio is going straight from the VCR into the computer -- whereas the video is going through the external TBC on the way to the computer. From what I understand, the TBC generates a small (1 frame?) delay while it buffers and stabilizes the framerate.

I was asking (1) is that understanding correct?, and (2) if so, does the video's 1-frame delay create an A/V sync issue in the digitized file that's noticeable and needs to be fixed later?
The delay is for frames that are running ahead of others, not for frames that are on time. It's faster than you think, and the video stream continues at 29.97fps or 25fps with no overall delay; all of the frames are output "on time".

Quote:
Originally Posted by bentley View Post
Yep! Which is why I'm using a PC for this project, even though I don't know the first thing about PCs. Should be a fun learning curve.
One thing you'[ll learn is how difficult it is to process video on a laptop. And Dell has some of the worst displays on the laptop market. You'll have to decide what to do after capture -- work with it on the laptop or work with it on the Mac. The Mac has no restoration ability other than simple edits, so what will you do with your capture? If your laptop has an output for an external monitor with an IPS front panel, that would be a great help. Otherwise your laptop screen will be a considerable hindrance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bentley View Post
The main reason I planned to use this laptop is that it's the only PC in the house. Though if it's not good enough, I'm not averse to buying something new. Is there a universally-agreed-on "good capturing computer" that you could point me to? (Or an existing thread on the subject?)
There are used and refurbished XP and Win7 machines all over the intyernet, at Amazon, BestBuy, Walmart, Newegg, etc. Stay away from Windows8 and Windows10, they're disasters for any kind of work, not just video.
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  #9  
05-11-2019, 10:32 AM
bentley bentley is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
The delay is for frames that are running ahead of others, not for frames that are on time.
Ah ha! That makes total sense, thank you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
One thing you'[ll learn is how difficult it is to process video on a laptop. You'll have to decide what to do after capture -- work with it on the laptop or work with it on the Mac.
Or buy another computer that's more suited to this purpose!

I don't intend to do any crazy editing just yet. Mainly right now I want to (1) digitize an entire tape losslessly, (2) isolate and save the segments that I want to preserve in lossless quality for later editing projects, and (3) compress the rest into a small, lossy reference file that tells me what was on the tape.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sanlyn View Post
There are used and refurbished XP and Win7 machines all over the intyernet
Good to know! So, from this thread I've gleaned that a "good" capturing/editing computer should have:

- Windows 97
- 32-bit processor
- either a second internal drive to capture to, or a fast external drive (7200rpm, USB 3.0, AC-powered)
- a quality and calibratable monitor (though this is more important during the repair/restore/editing stages)
- the computer can be used or refurbished, "new" isn't important

Are there any other important specs that I need? Specific brand of computer? Graphics card? Sound card?

Please note that I know *nothing* about graphics cards, sound cards, second internal drives, processors and any of this. Not a thing. I can and will Google to learn more, but the more detail people can offer me, the better! (I.E., tell me a specific brand of graphics card to get, not just "get a good card"...)

Thanks in advance!
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05-12-2019, 09:47 AM
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Replying as I read...

I'll attach the Pinnacle drivers disc ISO for you.

Yes, use s-video, almost never composite. Brand of cable doesn't really matter much, just that it's shielded, not a long run (3' best), and the head are not hard to insert/extract (as it could damage the VCR, TBC or capture card if it is too tight). Most of mine came free with DataVideo/JVC products, but I have some Monoprice as well. Good cables have no noise, and that should be obvious on a JVC blue screen.
Example: https://www.amazon.com/Cmple-S-Video...language=en_US

For RCA audio, again, just a decent cable, keep the length short. Nothing too thin, nothing that is so loose it slips off the connectors. Some RCA cables are ridiculously thick ("shielded"), and I often find that these "audiophile" cables are actually worse than freebies you'd get with consumer grade VCRs. Hum, hiss, and other noise comes from bad cables.
Example: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B008NCCXV6...language=en_US

USB is same story, use a short cable, and then the better cables for capturing have those ferrite chokes.
Example: https://www.amazon.com/Device-Cable-...language=en_US

Audio delay caused by a TBC is 1 frame, or about 33ms. It's not only negligible, but understand audio is never in 100% perfect sync anyway. So that 33ms negative could actually fix a slight lag, not necessarily harm it. And then audio changes quite a bit over the course of a video, adjusting various parameters (like Hz) to maintain sync. Any skew less than 200ms because hard to perceive. This should not be a worry whatsoever -- especially with the card.

For settings...
- The TBC has proc amp controls, which may or may not be needed. Also PAL/NTSC/etc switching, which probably won't be needed.
- The VCR needs to have TBC on, disable overlay/superimpose, calibration usually off (test it with your specific deck, as it is sometimes better ON for some tapes), AUTO/NORM mode.
- The capture card settings are in VirtualDub, mostly to adjust brightness by a few up/down as needed. Every computer seems to offset these values some, though some are perfect. The challenge here is that an uncalibrated monitor can give you a false idea of how bright/dark it really is, so proceed with caution. I don't think I've ever seen an ATI with off values, and this card is usually the same. Usually. I've seen it act odd twice in recent years, which isn't much, but still something to watch for.

Huffyuv lossless is usually what you want, using VirtualDub, but codec may need to change if you'll be moving/editing these on the Mac. Utvideo may be what's required. I'm sure your newer Win7 gen system is perfectly fast for it. Just remember to capture internal, then move files over to external drives. You cannot capture directly to USB drives without issues. Before committing to the full capture, run tests captures, move the files and test on Mac. Some codecs have colorspace options, always choose YUY2 (YUV), never use RGB.

@sanlyn:

I'm not aware of $100ki+ software for Mac, used by Disney/studios, for restoration. And even if such a thing existed, I'm assuming it'd be for film, not VHS. Different animal. Disney probably has access to custom tools, not even per-seat commercial software. In my studio days, at in-house, we had 1 Mac, several Linux farms, and several Windows seats. The only reason the Mac was ever used is because there was a stubborn "Mac guy" that insisted on using it, and some of his work was inferior because of it. And that was separate from my hardware, which was better yet.

@colony: Radio Shack cables were always terrible.

@bentley:

Your questions were slightly unique. Your exact hardware setup, and Mac/Windows integration, has never been asked in one post/thread that I can recall. So no harm on asking. That's why the forum is here.

In terms of OS, there really is no difference between Windows, Mac, or even Linux Mint/Xubuntu desktops. It's all the same stuff, though with slight variations in location. After you start to use different OS regularly, they all congeal, you realize it's just different superficial appearance. Like blond vs. brunette vs. redhead. The only major difference in OS is in software/hardware available. Video capture/restoration is a Windows world, so use it for that. An OS is just a tool, the computer interface. Sometimes you need a hammer, sometimes a screwdriver. Using Mac for video capture is like hitting a screw with a hammer. It'll work, but you'll make a mess.

@sanlyn:

Dell also had some of the best IPS mobile display, on the highest end models. For example, the M6800 laptops.

Mac may also have some restoration abilities, using Avisynth/Vapoursynth, as embedded in selur's Hybrid. I've not been able to test it yet. (The Windows version has come a long way in recent months/years, and I've actually used it more and more for easy/lazy processing of files. For lossless, you can output FF/Huffyuv or UtVideo, even FF/ProRes422, though I plan to suggest he embed Lagarith.)

@bentley:

Windows x64 versions can process 32-bit as well. The main issue is that 32-bit hardware (meaning drivers) are not supported, but that doesn't matter in your case. For example, the reason ATI AIW cards need XP is because the drivers are 32-bit. You can actually force install on WinVista/7 32-bit versions, but it's not fun, and it breaks itself easy.

You cannot capture to external USB drives, period. Even capturing to an internal drives shared with OS will work better than that. Sometimes you can capture tho an OS drive, if the OS install is lean and cleaned, and the system is 100% dedicated to capture. It must be newer, SATA2/3, for this to work. Right now, I do this on a Dell laptop, though I have a 1tb SATA drive that I want to add in soon. No dropped frames, and using that same card.

If you're serious about a new capture laptop, PM me. I can acquire one, and even have it sent here first to prep for capture. Then for you it'll be plug-and-play for capture, and I can give you a head start on installed software like Avisynth.

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