Quantcast VHS/8mm/MiniDV capture workflow on Windows 7 Pro? - digitalFAQ Forum
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06-09-2019, 07:14 PM
lily-Zaltana lily-Zaltana is offline
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Hello forum,
So thankful for my recent discovery of this site and forum. Thank you all for your time and knowledge. I am starting the task of trying to convert all our families old VHS, 8mm, and MiniDV Tapes. I made the mistake of transferring all the 8mm and MiniDV tapes as mpeg-2 and discovered that is not the best way of doing this. Now onto round 2. I知 looking for advice as to not make any more timely mistakes again. I知 sure this topic has been discussed in detail and I am trying to read through all the old forums to gather more information on video capture and editing. There is a lot to read through!

Let me start by telling you the process I知 thinking of following. Please correct me if I am incorrect. I am a definite newbie at video stuff so I apologize in advance for my inexperience and lack of using the proper terms. I知 hoping to get the best quality I can, using the equipment I have. On a tight budget and would like to use what I have, but I fear it may not be a great setup or great equipment.

Equipment/Software Workflow:
For VHS:
1. Toshiba SD-V296-K-TU VHS/DVD combo - Wish I could afford some of the better players such as JVC HR-S9600U but they are a bit over my price range and was able to get this from a friend. This device doesn稚 appear to have a TBC and I am having a hard time finding one. Should I try to find one? Or spend the money and find a better player with a built in TBC? The VHS player does not have an S-Video output so I will have to use composite. Unfortunately, only the DVD has an S-video output.
2. Diamond VC500 Capture Device
3. Virtual Dub 1 or 2 - 64bit for capture (not sure which is best, I have downloaded both and have 32bit version of VirtualDub 1)
4. Windows 7 operating system, Intel i7-3840qm CPU, 64-bit, 16GM Ram
5. VirtualDub for editing and color correction after capture
6. Audacity for audio editing, if needed
7. Video Pad for editing clips together. Will encoded into H.264 codec for digital viewing on computers, iPad, iPhone devices & use for burning to DVD

For rest of tapes:
Same workflow except borrowing camcorders from a friend to play the different tapes and will use S-Video.

I will capture in AVI with a lossless codec and use this as my master and archive format to store on hard drives for safekeeping.

Since I would like playback to be both digital and on TV, do I Deinterlace my footage?? I found this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn_T...ndex=6&t=1434s and would probably follow this format. Unless there is a better way.

In Virtual Dub I will be using Sanlyn settings Capturing with VirtualDub [Settings Guide]. Basically, NTSC_M, 29.97 Frame Rate, YUY2 Color Space, 720 x 480 output size, etc. Do these setting work for all my tape types? I was reading this article/guide http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/vid...nd-sources.htm and it seems as though I might need some different setting for the MiniDV tapes? It list the MiniDV as 4:1:1 (USA) File format. Does that mean I would need to use a different video format and color space in VirtualDub? This is were I start getting really confused! The really technical stuff I知 not quite understanding .

I知 also still a bit confused on the best timing settings I should use in virtual dub. For many of my tapes the timing probably wont matter but I知 sure some will need the audio and video to sync up properly.

As far as what lossless codec to use? I have downloaded Lagarith, Huffyuv v2.1.1, and UTVideo. Don稚 know which is best. Based on what I have been able to read so far in this forum Huffyuv seems to be the most used and recommended.

I attached a few of the tests I have been running with my VHS player. These were captured in VirtualDub2 using Lagarith, Huffyuv v2.1.1, and UTVideo T2 YUV422 BT .601 VCM.
Any advice or critique on this method would be greatly appreciated. This is definitely a work in process. Hoping I could get some guidance to see if I'm on the right track.

Thank you so much in advance for your time and knowledge!!


Attached Files
File Type: avi testing.avi (80.41 MB, 3 downloads)
File Type: avi testing2.avi (96.17 MB, 1 downloads)
File Type: avi testing3.avi (94.74 MB, 1 downloads)
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  #2  
06-10-2019, 12:38 AM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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Welcome to digitalfaq!


Quote:
Originally Posted by lily-Zaltana View Post
Toshiba SD-V296-K-TU VHS/DVD combo
Well, let's be honest. That's one of the lowest quality choices one could make. The DVD section is sort of OK, but the VHS section is best forgotten. The machine isn't even a Toshiba: it's a Funai product with a Toshiba label on it.

No, it doesn't have a tbc, and your comments reveal that you don't yet know what a tbc is. For analog tapes you need two types: (a) a line-level tbc to correct in-frame scanline timing error distortion (an essential tbc for analog tapes -- you're wasting your time if don't correct scanline errors during capture), and (b) a frame-level tbc for frame-to-frame timing and sync errors. High-end SVHS players generally come with line-level tbc's. Frame-level tbc's are external. Both are hard to come by, but you can get both types in a single unit with a used Panasonic DMR-ES10 or DMR-ES15 used as a tbc pass-thru device between your tape player and capture device. Not all DVD recorders can be used in pass-thru mode, and most of those that can will have such weak tbc's that they aren't worth the trouble.

horizontal scanline timing error effects:


The image above is from the right-hand side of one of your video samples. Take a look at the black right-hand border. Notice how the black border is notched and wrinkled and is also warped toward the left at the top of the frame. Also, check the light gray vertical post: it's warped in the middle and the warp changes shape every few frames. Also, the right-hand border "wiggles' during play. A line-tbc corrects these errors during capture. A frame-level tbc has no effect on scanline distortion, but a line-level tbc has no effect on frame-to-frame sync timing errors. Therefore, you need both types of tbc.

I can understand why you wouldn't want a JVC 9600, as most of them have been used to death. I went thru three high-end JVC's. After the third one permanently damaged yet another of my prized tapes, I dropped JVC off my list forever. So I'm not the guy to use as a JVC reference. Besides, many JVC settings made the picture look out of focus and they're useless for 6-hour EP tapes, of which I had over 300 hours' worth.

Here's an example of one possibility: Many people use good-quality mainstream VCRs without built-in tbc's but they pair it with an ES10 or ES15 for pass-thru TBC. An old forum thread has a sample capture made with a non-tbc Panasonic PV-S4670 SVHS VCR from 1996 with an ES10 pass-thru into an ATi All in Wonder AGP card. The original tape was recorded on a cheap 2-head 1978 RCA mono VCR with a bad analog cable signal fed thru a cheap $1.49 3-way cable splitter onto cheap Radio Shack tape at 6-hour speed (which will tell you how little I knew about video in 1979). The broadcast video was telecined NTSC. The lossless original sample has been encoded to h264 for posting here but is otherwise unfiltered, unimproved, and still telecined. It was posted in a thread to illustrate various techniques for working with poor tapes. The noisy side borders are old-fashioned overscan ripple types from 1979 but the vertical lines and edges in the frames are straight and undistorted. Original capture: Liv5A_cut_EP_original_cap.mp4 (33 mb). Here is the same clip after telecine removal and restoration with Avisynth and VirtualDub: Liv5A_ivtc_cut_EP_playback sample.mp4 (33 mb).

Quote:
Originally Posted by lily-Zaltana View Post
Diamond VC500 Capture Device
A pretty good capture device that should serve you well. Used by many in this forum. I use one in my Win7 laptop for capture.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lily-Zaltana View Post
3. Virtual Dub 1 or 2 - 64bit for capture (not sure which is best, I have downloaded both and have 32bit version of VirtualDub 1)
Rather than waste large parts of your life trying to find 64-bit add-ons, stick with 32-bit VirtualDub 1, 32-bit codecs, and 32-bit filters.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lily-Zaltana View Post
Windows 7 operating system, Intel i7-3840qm CPU, 64-bit, 16GM Ram
More than adequate.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lily-Zaltana View Post
VirtualDub for editing and color correction after capture
VDub also for running Avisynth scripts. Important initial color and levels work should be done in the original YUY2 capture before moving to RGB in VirtualDub, as you'll see when you start browsing thru forum workflow threads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lily-Zaltana View Post
For rest of tapes:
Same workflow except borrowing camcorders from a friend to play the different tapes and will use S-Video.
MiniDV is already digital. It isn't captured. It's copied 1:1 via FireWire using WinDV software directly into unaltered DV-AVI format. FireWire PCI and PCIe adapter cards with Texas Instruments chips are available for Win7 computers, cheap.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lily-Zaltana View Post
Since I would like playback to be both digital and on TV, do I Deinterlace my footage??
Do you mean your TV can't play digital video? I wonder what you mean by "both digital and on TV". If your videos aren't being processed into digital formats, what other format are you considering?

Software deinterlacing is a destructive process, whether you like that fact or not, and always involves loss and compromise of one kind or other. You don't deinterlace just for the heck of it. Obviously the internet is a pretty dumb platform that isn't smart enough to handle interlacing or telecine. So if you deinterlace you want to inflict as little damage as pssible. The only deinterlacer that's as good as your TV or media players is Avisynth's QTGMC, and the best inverse telecine plugin is Avisynth's TIVTC. Anything less is inferior, even if the app or filter has "pro' in its name.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lily-Zaltana View Post
I found this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sn_T...ndex=6&t=1434s and would probably follow this format.
Be careful with dumbed-down PoopTube videos, especially those that don't really tell you much. For example, mp4 is not a "format". It's a container, and as a container it can wrap around many different codecs and frame structures. WEBM and FLV are also popular containers, so let's get to that stuff when discussing particular videos and websites. But, yes, .mp4 is what most consumers have heard of.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lily-Zaltana View Post
I was reading this article/guide http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/vid...nd-sources.htm and it seems as though I might need some different setting for the MiniDV tapes? It list the MiniDV as 4:1:1 (USA) File format. Does that mean I would need to use a different video format and color space in VirtualDub?
MiniDV's native frame is 720x480 (NTSC). And consumer DV is not "captured". Again, it's copied losslessly via Firewire and WinDV. "4.1.1" and/or "4.2.0" are really the same amount of data and refer to colorspace -- they describe the video storage as 4 parts luma data with 2 parts chroma (1 chroma pixel for the U color channel, and 1 chroma pixel for the V color channel). This colorspace for consumer DV is also named "YV12". For analog tape you'll capture to YUY2, which is described as "4.2.2.", or 4 pixels of luminance data, 2 pixels of U channel color, and 2 pixels of V channel color. Yes, 4.2.2. has twice the chroma resolution of 4.1.1 or 4.2.0.

I note that one of your samples used the UMY2 colorspace/codec. Hm, don't do that. That sample won't play in most PC media players unless a UMY2 setup is on the user's machine. Stick with huffyuv YUY2 for capturing from analog sources. HuffYUV is the most efficient for lowest CPU usage during capture. The DV source colorspace to which MiniDV is copied is YV12. which will be handled for you automatically by WinDV. You will also need Lagarith for intermediate lossless working files, since Lagarith can be used for YUY2, YV12, and RGB, the three colorspaces used by Avisynth and VirtualDub plugins. I don't know why people use UTVideo for working files, but it seems popular for archiving. Problem is, for working files UT Video performance is optimized for HD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lily-Zaltana View Post
I知 also still a bit confused on the best timing settings I should use in virtual dub. For many of my tapes the timing probably wont matter but I知 sure some will need the audio and video to sync up properly.
For any settings, you'll have to find a way to get some tbc into your capture setup. A pass-thru unit would be the cheapest and easiest way to get both types of tbc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lily-Zaltana View Post
The really technical stuff I知 not quite understanding .
Uh-oh. All I can offer is, I've heard it said that this activity is 50% technical, 50% art, and 100% patience. Does that add up to 200%? It sure does!

Quote:
Originally Posted by lily-Zaltana View Post
I attached a few of the tests I have been running with my VHS player.
Thank you for the samples. You'd be amazed by how many users ask very difficult questions but never post a single frame to let us know what's going on.

Your sample is almost devoid of fine detail, a direct result of the hardware you're using. But the color's nice. Contrast is off the charts, I'm afraid, as there appears to be no effort at controlling input luminance levels. The YUV histogram in the image below shows illegal signal levels that exceed y=16-235. in fact, levels even exceed RGB=0-255. What happens to dark and bright data that's beyond the preferred limits for digital video? Simple. It's destroyed and is lost forever, which is called "clipping" in the video world.


http://avisynth.nl/index.php/Histogram


Attached Images
File Type: jpg scanline errors.jpg (6.5 KB, 26 downloads)
File Type: jpg Illegal luminance levels.jpg (76.2 KB, 26 downloads)
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The following users thank sanlyn for this useful post: captainvic (06-11-2019), lily-Zaltana (06-10-2019)
  #3  
06-10-2019, 03:19 PM
lily-Zaltana lily-Zaltana is offline
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Wow! Thank you so much for all this great information. I feel like I can actually make some steps in the right directions. I plan of really reading this information a few more times in detail and I'm sure I will have some follow up questions. Based on my quick read through on my phone so far I'm gathering that I need to find some better equipment to improve my quality. Just browsing though my local Facebook marketplace this morning and found a Toshiba W-804 new in the box. The buyer said it is in working order. If I was to buy I would probably take my capture device and computer to confirm. What do you think about this player? Looking at the specs online and don't see anything about a line-level tbc. Does it have a fancy term or does this player just not have one?

Also any ideas on where I could find an ES10 or ES15. I found some on Ebay but I know that is not the most reliable place to buy things like this. I did find the marketplace on this site and plan on searching in more detail today.

Thank you so much again for you thorough and quick response. Like I said I'm really going to read through this today in more depth and I'm sure I will have more questions!
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  #4  
06-10-2019, 05:46 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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A W804 new in the box? If it's in good shape, it's a good 6-head SVHS/VHS player with s-video output. The weak point with the W804 was that its SVHS performance was no better than regular VHS, although the latter was above par. This machine sold for something like $400-plus when new in the early 2000's. No, it doesn't have a tbc. I confess that I'm using three Panasonics circa 1996 (PV-4664 and PV-S4670 Dynamorphous units) that have no tbc but are paired with pass-thru tbc's. Why use those when I also have a prosumer Panasonic AG-1980 VCR super-tbc machine? Some tapes track better on my lesser players, although those players were top of the line among non-tbc units. The other reason is that high-end machines like the 1980 and super-hot JVC's are maintenance nightmares that suddenly decide on a whim that they don't feel up to par when the moon is in certain phases (that's the best explanation I can offer!).

The W804 was a better player than it was at recording, but you won't be recording with it anyway. However, you will still need a line and frame tbc. ES10's and ES15's are sold on eBay, it's not necessary that the disc drive works (the tbc works without the disc drive) but most that I've seen are still-working units. My own ES10 works OK but has a sizeable dent in the top cover. You will definitely need the Panasonic remote for those units, and they don't use the same remote. Some sellers offer the remote separately.

The W804 has no noise reduction either, so even with a tbc you're going to have to learn plenty about VHS cleanup and post-processing -- a real headache, as you can probably see from the mp4 samples I referred to earlier. Tell you a a secret: a lot of people with high-end machines turn off the DNR, because Dynamic Noise Reduction very often means Dynamic Detail Removal along with motion smearing that looks like digital artifacts and can't be fixed. There's also the myth that prosumer units with noise reduction don't require any cleanup after capture -- it's simply not true. VHS is a noisy medium that always requires cleanup at some level or other. So there are pros and cons connected with high-end stuff. But don't misunderstand: a cheap entry-level VCR is simply not worth the trouble and would be impossible to work with. There were many good premium priced non-tbc units from Panasonic, Mitsubishi, Philips, and a few others that fare pretty well with a pass-thru tbc. I know a couple of users who actually prefer to work that way because built-in tbc's keep them tied down to a certain player. But be cautioned that less-than-ideal gear does require post-processing cleanup skill and time.

It would be preferable to have a super-duper high end unit with DNR and tbc in perfect condition. You can buy it, use it, sell it when you're finished, and people are always looking for one. But a lot of those units are in really poor shape. Spare parts started disappearing 15 years ago. Repairs are made the expensive way, by buying up used models and cannibalising whatever can be re-used, often costing much more than brand-new parts did. The cost of rebuilt high end players today is as much as those players cost when they were new.
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  #5  
06-10-2019, 06:33 PM
lily-Zaltana lily-Zaltana is offline
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sanlyn,

Okay, so I was able to really look at this in more detail this afternoon. Here are some further questions/comments and responses to your questions.

Quote:
Well, let's be honest. That's one of the lowest quality choices one could make. The DVD section is sort of OK, but the VHS section is best forgotten. The machine isn't even a Toshiba: it's a Funai product with a Toshiba label on it.
I figured as much! I feel like I should probably find an better player! More about that below.

Quote:
Both are hard to come by, but you can get both types in a single unit with a used Panasonic DMR-ES10 or DMR-ES15 used as a tbc pass-thru device between your tape player and capture device. Not all DVD recorders can be used in pass-thru mode, and most of those that can will have such weak tbc's that they aren't worth the trouble
Read more: http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/newreply.php?do=postreply&t=9785#ixzz5qU99Wmef

I'm gathering that this does not apply to the DMR-ES10 or DMR-ES15 as they do a sufficient job as a pass-thru device. You are referring to other DVD recorders if I was to go down this route? I think what your saying is make sure you get DMR-ES10 or DMR-ES15 and nothing else as far as using a DVD recorders for a pass-thru device.
Could I still use the awful VHS player I have and improve upon my quality with these type of pass-thru devices? Or, as I stated above, would it be more beneficial to find a higher quality player. If so, what specification should I be looking for in a VHS player? If I was to find a different player with higher quality, would this offer me a much clearer picture with finer details? I would really like to get the best quality I can, if possible. I know that "best" is all relevant and different for each person and their equipment. So I would like something has a bit better details than what I am getting with the samples I shared earlier.

Quote:
The lossless original sample has been encoded to h264 for posting here but is otherwise unfiltered, unimproved, and still telecined. It was posted in a thread to illustrate various techniques for working with poor tapes. The noisy side borders are old-fashioned overscan ripple types from 1979 but the vertical lines and edges in the frames are straight and undistorted. Original capture: Liv5A_cut_EP_original_cap.mp4 (33 mb). Here is the same clip after telecine removal and restoration with Avisynth and VirtualDub: Liv5A_ivtc_cut_EP_playback sample.mp4 (33 mb).
What a difference between the two! I also notice that the original has the ragged edges/combining effect. I talk about that in response to something else you asked below. Again, based on my previous readings before finding this site I was lead to believe that this was due to the video being interlaced? Am I completely misinformed? I have noticed this effect in many of the test I have done. The restored version is void of this.


Quote:
A pretty good capture device that should serve you well. Used by many in this forum. I use one in my Win7 laptop for capture
Pheww...Glad to hear this will suffice!


Quote:
Rather than waste large parts of your life trying to find 64-bit add-ons, stick with 32-bit VirtualDub 1, 32-bit codecs, and 32-bit filters
.

Great Info, I will stick with VirtualDub1 32-Bit!

Quote:
VDub also for running Avisynth scripts. Important initial color and levels work should be done in the original YUY2 capture before moving to RGB in VirtualDub, as you'll see when you start browsing thru forum workflow threads.
Yes, I have seen Avisynth scripts referred to often in other forum threads. I downloaded it and need to get a better understanding of it before I ask any further questions!

Quote:
Do you mean your TV can't play digital video? I wonder what you mean by "both digital and on TV". If your videos aren't being processed into digital formats, what other format are you considering?
I don't think I worded this correctly or maybe I have read false information somewhere else. I have found that a lot of the info I have previously read prior to discovering this site seems to be misinformation. I read that the interlaced video will play without the ragged edges/combining effect on a TV, but on your computer and devices you will see the ragged edges/combining effect and this is where de-interlacing is handy. It has something to do with the TV being able to read the interlaced video properly and the computer and devices can't. Maybe it my fault and I didn't properly understand what I read??

Quote:
MiniDV's native frame is 720x480 (NTSC). And consumer DV is not "captured". Again, it's copied losslessly via Firewire and WinDV. "4.1.1" and/or "4.2.0" are really the same amount of data and refer to colorspace -- they describe the video storage as 4 parts luma data with 2 parts chroma (1 chroma pixel for the U color channel, and 1 chroma pixel for the V color channel). This colorspace for consumer DV is also named "YV12". For analog tape you'll capture to YUY2, which is described as "4.2.2.", or 4 pixels of luminance data, 2 pixels of U channel color, and 2 pixels of V channel color. Yes, 4.2.2. has twice the chroma resolution of 4.1.1 or 4.2.0.
I have many questions in regards to this topic, but I feel I need to educate myself a little more and read through other forum threads before asking. Don't want to make you repeat what I'm sure has already been discussed. This info gives me a great starting point!

Quote:
note that one of your samples used the UMY2 colorspace/codec
Hmmm... I'm not sure how that happened? I made sure that all of these tests had YUY2 selected as the color space/compression in the Capture Pin settings in Virtual Dub. Could the codec have changed it? Is there another place where this setting could get altered? Do you happen to know which filename had the incorrect Colorspace? I should have written this down or labeled it in my filename but I believe,
Testing was Lagarith
Testing 2 was Huffyuv v2.1.1
Testing 3 was UTVideo T2 YUV422 BT .601 VCM

Quote:
I've heard it said that this activity is 50% technical, 50% art, and 100% patience. Does that add up to 200%? It sure does!
Yes, It definitely does take 100% patience!

Quote:
Your sample is almost devoid of fine detail, a direct result of the hardware you're using. But the color's nice. Contrast is off the charts, I'm afraid, as there appears to be no effort at controlling input luminance levels. The YUV histogram in the image below shows illegal signal levels that exceed y=16-235. in fact, levels even exceed RGB=0-255. What happens to dark and bright data that's beyond the preferred limits for digital video? Simple. It's destroyed and is lost forever, which is called "clipping" in the video world.
As I asked earlier in my response would a better player eliminated these problems and offer me finer details? I'm sure the answer is yes!

Thank you again for you thorough response. It has been very helpful in trying to narrow down what I need to do and where I most definitely need to improve! Your help and time is greatly appreciated!
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  #6  
06-10-2019, 06:47 PM
lily-Zaltana lily-Zaltana is offline
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Quote:
A W804 new in the box? If it's in good shape, it's a good 6-head SVHS/VHS player with s-video output. The weak point with the W804 was that its SVHS performance was no better than regular VHS, although the latter was above par.
So if I was to purchase this and find a DMR-ES10 or DMR-ES15 pass-thru, would that have a noticeable improvement on my capture quality in comparison to say the subpar Toshiba/Funai player with a DMR-ES10 or DMR-ES15?
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  #7  
06-10-2019, 09:00 PM
sanlyn sanlyn is offline
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A better VCR would be a definite improvement.
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