@Kwag,

Here's an interesting link from Doom9 where SansGrip started a
post about Psychovisual:

http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.ph...t=psychovisual

-black prince

Now we have to double check that the file prediction is still consistent with this GOP. I'm currently encoding "K-19" with GripFit ( :wink: ) at 528x480 with 1-24-4-1-24 + BETA-1a matrix, so I'll post tomorrow if the predicted/actual size are on target.

-kwag

Kwag,
and for (320 wrong)352x240 lbr? :imstupid:
about matrix,gop,cq or cq_vbr,high quality? :wink:

if my player plays svcds,than should play skvcds? :?
i never do skvcd!

thanks in advance! :wink: :)

editing:
is 352x240!

You mean 352x240 right :?:
The above GOP should apply too. Need more testing. Try it out :wink: It should play SKVCD too. The only difference from SKVCD to SVCD is the resolution, where SVCDs are 480x480 and SKVCD is 352x480 ( Half D-1 resolution, or CVD resolution )

-kwag

I'm currently encoding "K-19" with GripFit( :wink: ) at 528x480 and the test GOP 1-24-4-1-24 + BETA-1 "Notch" Matrix. This is what the movie will look like on one CD-R: http://www.kvcd.net/k-19-small-samp.mpg

-kwag

Kwag wrote:
"You mean 352x240 right :?: "

yes,of course...... :imstupid: :tongue2: :BangHead:

thanks,i try! :)

Hey, don't worry jorel, I do that all the time too :mrgreen:

From Kwag "I'm currently encoding "K-19" with GripFit( ) at 528x480 and the test GOP 1-24-4-1-24 + BETA-1 "Notch" Matrix. This is what the movie will look like on one CD-R: http://www.kvcd.net/k-19-small-samp.mpg"

do you mean BETA-1 or BETA-1a "Notch"?

very good....clear! :)

"do you mean BETA-1 or BETA-1a "Notch"?"
yes, i ask like syk2c11.

Sorry, it's Beta-1a "Notch" Matrix. :imstupid: :lol:

Movie encoded. Final file size was ~4% lower because my sample size was also ~4% lower :x
So ratio is correct and prediction is valid :D

-kwag

Well, I just finished running samples from Death To Smoochy (DVD 16:9 1h49m). Here's what I did:

CQ original GOP original matrix
CQ new GOP original matrix
CQ new GOP beta-1a matrix
CQ experimental GOP beta-1a matrix

and the same combinations of GOP and matrix for CQ_VBR mode.

Result:

The experimental matrix caused a huge drop in CQ level, from 48 for new GOP beta-1a to 39. To be honest it looked like I had dropped the CQ that much, with significantly more Gibbs and blockiness. The artifacts at CQ 48 are barely acceptable (I'm going to do a two-disc encode as well, just in case), but at CQ 39 they're definitely not acceptable for a one-disc encode.

The experimental matrix increases CQ_VBR compression greatly, causing a jump in CQ_VBR level from 7 for new GOP beta-1a to 11. All CQ_VBR encodes looked far worse than the CQ versions.

Overall I prefer the new GOP beta-1a sample. It seems to be about the right balance of compression and artifacts, blocks and Gibbs.

Hi SansGrip,

You mean the 1-12-1-1-24 or 1-24-4-1-24 :?:

-kwag

Sorry... By "experimental" I meant 1-24-4-1-24. By "new" I meant 1-12-1-1-24. I should've been more clear ;).

@Kwag,

Just finished "Signs" using GOP 1-24-4-1-24, Q-Matrix Notch Beta-1a,
and CQ=100. This was for a 2 CD encode + audio. The results were
GREAT!!! 8O :D Flashing was very subtle this time and from 2+ feet
from TV not noticable at all. There was Gibbs, but no worst than using
CQ_VBR. File size was smaller than before (e.g. 1.4GB vs 1.5GB) with
old GOP and Q-Matrix. The picture quality was Excellent!!! :wink:
Gibbs was slightly more noticable than before, but viewing 2+ feet
away from screen it was hardly noticable unless you were looking
for it. I'm encoding another full video with the new GOP and Q-Matrix
to make sure this was not just a fluke. I'll let you know how it
turns out :)

-black prince

Yes :x , I just made a couple of screen shot comparisons with Vdub, and I can see the Gibbs. So back to the drawing board. I won't be satisfied until I find the correct GOP that doesn't "flash" (like 1-24-4-1-24) and no more Gibbs than the reference sample (like 1-12-1-1-24) or any reference sample made with 1-12-1-1-24.
So back to more tests here :roll:.

-kwag

Would experimenting with MPEG-2 do any good as SansGrip said the I-frames would be less blocky? I know it produces bigger files than MPEG-1 but as we've all seen here, it's only a matter of time before the filesize gets shrunk down :idea:

i lost something?

now we are testing
the BETA-1a notch :
8 9 12
9 10 14
12 14 18 :?:

or not?
correct it please! :?

Yes, but the primary focus right now is MPEG-1, so we can target to most standalone DVD players. I assume that for MPEG-2, we're going to wind up with another GOP :roll:. As far as the matrix, it seems to do a good job as it is with MPEG-2 :D
But as soon as we get the MPEG-1 stabilized, which I hope is soon :!: , then we can tackle the MPEG-2 optimizations :idea:

-kwag

Yes, and I think that's the best and final matrix ( for a while 8O ).
Really, I hope we freeze that matrix now, and that will be the new KVCD v2 Q. Matrix. Hopefully it will stay that way for a long time.

-kwag

:D really good Kwag, i do now some more tests with 352x240 lbr!

:wink:

@Kwag,

I don't know if tweaking GOP would really solve Gibbs. You sure are
making great progress with Flashing. Gibbs has been a problem
with old and new GOP's. I have an a crazy idea, what if,
SansGrip or someone re-encoded a high resolution KVCD mpg-1 using
UnDot to see if there was an improvement. :idea: Just a test clip would
satisify the question of improving Gibbs. :?: UnDot requires avisynth
2.5 alpha. Right now there is no proactive filter that could do this,
but suppose the way is to re-encode :?:

-black prince

Hi all

My 2 cents ;) :

Movie : Panic Room 161075 frames, 6443 sec

old matrix : http://apoc.chez.tiscali.fr/panic-ro...ix-cq-79.8.mpg
new matrix : http://apoc.chez.tiscali.fr/panic-ro...trix-cq-79.mpg

CQ for 1 CD.

This film is pretty hard to compress : lot of DCT blocks (look at the wall)

--
apoc

@apoc,

I encoded "Panic Room" and found the DVD source was poor to
begin with :( Then of course, the KVCD backup looked even worst.
Dark scenes on the DVD had artifacts, blockiness, etc. I didn't
expect the backup to look better :?

-black prince

Probably not. I'm just trying to find the optimal point where there's no more flashing, while keeping the minimal Gibbs that we see on the 1-12-1-1-24. Other that that, there's not much we can do, as everything else is internal to the encoder.

-kwag

I've not played much with MPEG-2 short of noticing the big difference between I-frames. I did a few tests and determined that MPEG-1 is better for bitrates ~2500, but this is of course before I discovered KVCD ;).

Then freeze it. It's definitely better than the old one, and declaring it v2 will free up time (and mental energy ;)) for other things...

I don't think there would be for the simple reason that there's no Gibbs in the source, but there is in the final encode. Even if you could remove all traces of Gibbs with UnDot, when you re-encode that you'll just end up with Gibbs again.

@All,

I have a feeling that when I get the final GOP, I'm going to be doing a small tweak on the high frequency end of the matrix. I think this will be the ticket to kill the Gibbs, just like the low frequency notch killed some of the low frequency DCT blocks :wink:.

-kwag

@SansGrip,

SansGrip wrote:
Then Gibbs is a result of Tmpgenc motion search? That makes sense.
So the only way to really improve and/or remove Gibbs is to correct
Tmpgenc encoder. Hey Frankencoder, where are you!!!!! :)

-black prince

I don't think it's the motion search that creates Gibbs as it's usually seen in high-contrast areas like permanent subtitles etc. There probably is no way to a completely Gibbs-free encoding result, all we can do is try making it less noticable :?:

Yep. You can see the Gibbs effect even on very high-quality JPEG files if you look closely enough. It's a consequence of the encoding method, and no amount of improvement to the encoder will get rid of it.

The best I've been able to do with the GOP without sacrificing compression and eliminating "almost all" flashing is 1-24-2-1-24.
One B, too much flashing.
Two Bs, flashing almost (if any!) gone.
Three B's flashing barely(almost static), but artifacts start to appear.
Four B's, zero flashing, artifacts start to increase.

I believe the "Happy medium" is 2 B's, with the GOP 1-XXXX-2-1-24 where xxxx is 24 or above, because last value is what dictates size of GOP. So I'll set it to the usual "5823" :wink:

Give it a try guys. There's not that much more we can do here, but I think we've done quite a lot :D .
I'm heading to the matrix now one more time to look at the high frequencies :wink:

Here's the latest test sample with 1-24-2-1-24: http://www.kvcd.net/1-24-2-1-24.mpg
Compare that to the old reference sample http://www.kvcd.net/kpax-newgop-newmat.mpg

-kwag

Tell me if I have this right for the current "state-of-the-art":

GOP: 1-5823-2-1-24
BETA-1a notch matrix
CQ

am I missing something?

Andy

You got it :D
Try it out :wink:

-kwag

Let's put the template up to for everyone to download

:D

Only when everyone is happy and we all agree that the changes are positive :wink:. Need more testing :D . Feedback welcome. Please make small tests ( 15 seconds ) and compare samples with both GOPs. PLEASE, make sure that both samples are the same size before evaluation.

-kwag

Could you put it under a beta section or something, just so we can verify that everyone is using the same teplate?

Jim

Sure Jim :D,
Here you go!: http://www.kvcd.net/KVCD-MASTER-BETA...-24-2-1-24.mcf

-kwag

@Kwag,

I tested 704x480, 528x480, 352x480, 352x240 using GOP 1-24-2-1-24,
Q-Matrix Notch Beta-1a, CQ 80 for all. I didn't create equal file size, since
I just wanted to see if Flashing had been effected by the new GOP. I did
however tried 528x480 CQ_VBR and I'll discuss that later. The results
were astonishing. Flashing disappeared in all the tests. Gibbs was
still noticable up close, but no worst than before with old GOP.

Now to 528x480 CQ_VBR. There was noticable Flashing. Gibbs was
slightly worst. I don't know if I want to compare CQ vs CQ_VBR
with the new GOP, since CQ would win by a mile. :D

-black prince

:mrgreen: I agree. I just did a test with K-Pax at 352x240, and I'm up to CQ=100 for a one CD target (min=300,MAX=1,800) and I still can't meet the 11.68MB required :mrgreen:. The sample size is 11.131MB 8O . Look at K-Pax with the new matrix and GOP: http://www.kvcd.net/k-pax-352x240.mpg
I did this sample without blocks overscan, so it will look ok in WMP.

I think CQ with the latest changes is the best mode, even for 352x240 :D
Anyone else doing more tests :?: Feedback please :!: Good or bad 8)

-kwag