KDVD: 16:9 or 4:3 ?
 

Hi there,
I don't have 16:9 TV set but I have been encoding "Anamorphic" KDVD just in case I will have a 16:9 in the future. I would like to know from those lucky people who have 16:9 TV set, what is it like when viewing "Anamorphic" movies in a 16:9 TV set? Is it worth to spend extra disc space to encode as anamorphic instead of 4:3? Will there be a BIG difference when view movies encoded in 4:3 and 16:9. Will 4:3 movie be stretched to fit the 16:9 TV set, if so, will the video quality be decreased?

.
.
the way I see it, after encoding w/ TMPG using the following:
* Setting/Video/Aspect Ratio [16:9 Dispay]
* Setting/Advanced/Source Aspect Ratio [16:9 525 line (NTSC)]

w/out those boarders one normally uses in an encode (I don't, if I
can help it) they are the last, on the eating up of BITRATE chain.

Just imagine those black lines/boarders that you include in your
encode, how much they eat up on bitrate. Even if those boarders ARE of
one consistant color, they STILL eat up on bitrate. Eliminate them, and
the last of bitrate eating is gone, except for the actual video of course :wink:

You'll have to test this out for yourself, but it will be difficult to do becaues
the Bitrate Mode (CQ, VBR, CQ_VBR, CBR etc) will refect the diference in
video field or area and will factor this in your encode. I've had this issue
with doing divX w/ and w/out boarders, and sometimes the final encodes'
bitrate were so close in size, it would drive me crazy, cause I'm ASSUMING
that the bitrate will be lower - guess what, it wont be. Instead, you video
will have the same (or higher) bitrate, but will look MUCH better. Mind you,
this is all based on my experience, and I'm still working on this "boarder"
issue.

Some day, a WideScreen TV is on my shopping list. What I don't want in an
WS TV, is blocky/pixelation (including from MY encodes in addiiton to other
sources already encoded)

Hay, maybe we should (or someone should) start a WideScreen TV
* comparison list
* quality list
* ect
.
.
* of all the various kvcd.xx.xx encodes for however many WS TV's
there are that you users may have :idea:

IMO, if you are planning on WS TV future, start doing your WS encodes of
whatever WS meterials you have. And while you're at it, drop those
boarders and take advantage of the bitrate/quality ratio obtain from this
route. Sorry, I don't have the calculation that goes hand in hand w/ this
analigy. But, I believe that it is worth it, to go this route :wink:
So, go for it !!

-vhelp

Hey wait a minute :!:

I don't have a 16:9 TV at the moment...but probably will in the future...will my 4:3 encodes be stretched or will I have to encode them all again? :?

No-one knows?? :(

1. If you rip a movie in 16:9 and encode in 16:9 you will still have black bars showing on a 4:3. Even if you set your DVD player to 16:9, there still will be some black bars on a 4:3 TV, although smaller.
2. If you crop off(remove) the black bars in a 16:9 movie like people do for DiVx PC movies, and watch it on a 4:3 TV, it will look ridicuously stretched.
3. If you have a 4:3 movie and shrink it to 16:9 it will look just as ridiculous, just squished.
So I just stick with direct 16:9 to 16:9 encodes. The width and height look exactly like the original DVD does on my player. Your DVD player will detect it as a 16:9 and format it to fit your 4:3 TV with black bars, provided you have your DVD player screen setting set to 4:3.

Anyone correct me if I am wrong on this. But these are the results I have.

But I wanted to know if my letterboxed, 4:3 encodes of 16:9 sources would look right on a widescreen TV...

Anyone?? :bawl:

(in case noone understood the question...)
I'm now encoding all 16:9 sources to 16:9, but I have previously encoded some 16:9 sources to letterboxed 4:3...will these encodes display correctly on a widescreen TV?

hi PyRoMaNiA,

I don't have a WideScreen TV, but I bet there are SOO many various
versions out there, that even if one worked right, you can bet that it might
not work the same on another one.

How about this.. take them to a store, those that you feel "should" work,
and try them out on some WS TVs ??

Good idea, no ?
-vhelp

How do u expect 4:3 encoded sources will display correctly on WideScreen TV :?: 8)
They are 4:3 already and display on WideScreen TV will be horisontally squashed :wink: :lol:
bman

As they're not full screen but letterboxed I thought they might... :?

Hmm...good idea..I'll try that. :D

Well thanks for your replies, sorry for being stupid. :oops:

hi PyRoMaNiA,

..I mean, it only makes sense.. that if you encode for WS TV viewing
in TMPG as such:

Please correct me if I'm wrong, as I've never tried any of MY 16:9
encodes on a WS TV - yet! But the above sounds logical to me.

Yes, do it.. bring to store. I'm actually thinking of doing the same
thing. Might bring a sample CDR to BJ's tomorrow if I remember, as they
always have a WS TV w/ DVD connected and playing. I just have to ask
first. So, we'll see.

BJ's has a 42" or 62" for $1199, but when looked at the back of the unit,
it was like almost 2 feet deep, and sort of warm/hot to the touch. So,
I can't see how it's a Flatscreen WS TV, ..or, maybe a Tube WS TV he he..
Anyways..

Looks like no one has a FlatScreen WS TV here. So, it's up to you and me
I guess he he..

Good luck to you if you do, and please report back your finding.. likewise,
I'll do the same.

-vhelp

hi PyRoMaNiA,

..and remember, if you start encoding W/OUT the boarders, you'll be saving
MORE bitrate, and INCREASING your final quality !! If you must, please
do test this statement out for yourself. Even if you don't see the bitrate
saving, you'll most likely be seeing it in QUALITY !! Even so, there IS
a way of testing this out as well, using an app I created (see Delphi forum)
I didn't design that app for nothing, you know :wink:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/archives/error.gif Bitrate http://www.digitalfaq.com/archives/error.gif

So, remember the specs below, and use the B or better yet, C for your
final encodes, if it's destined for WS TV viewing anyways.. won't hurt if
you encode all your movies w/ IN(16:9) - OUT(16:9) w/out the boarders, as
your DVD player will ADD them in anyways. Please believe me!
On my Apex AD-1500, it does ADD the boarders in anyways. So do save your
self some bitrate, and add more quality by NOT including black bars
in your 16:9 encodes. Don't worry if your final OUT(16:9) do not play
right under PowerDVD (PDVD) or WinDVD (WDVD) - I do know that you can set
up PDVD to WS view (and they look GREAT) by using these settings under
config (it's the same setting I use for all my test plays)

-----------------------------------------------
4:3 Pan&Scan Screen:
[Change to 1024x768]
[x] ask me before change (if you want this)

16:9 Widescreen:
16:9 Pan&Scan Screen [Change to 1024x768]
[ ] ask me before change

Screen Control:
[ ] run full screen
[x] Keep screen aspect ratio (AR)
-----------------------------------------------

The above is based on my 1024 x 768 screen resolution.

When I encode to a final OUT(16:9) and view in PDVD, the boarders do not
show up when NOT in fullscreen view. But, when you select (w/ F5) fullscreen,
it ADD's the boarders, just like the DVD players do. So, imagine the amount
of bitrate you save W/OUT the boarders on your OUT(16:9) encodes !!

Here's the setup look again:

You have my best intentions here. Good luck anyways though http://www.digitalfaq.com/archives/error.gif
-vhelp

ok, I just did a quick test to test my theory out about the bitrate and
quality, and the result so far, are dissapointing to me.

SIZE
In short, looks like I was wrong about the bitrate savings.. :cry:
In my two samples,
* FS - IN(16:9) OUT(04:3) was 10.120mb
* WS - IN(16:9) OUT(16:9) was 11.294mb 8O

That's a difference of 1.174mb for the FS

Mind you, this was just one example I only made tests on. Om just gonna
assume that these results of SIZE difference would apply to all encodes
done in this manner.


QUALITY
I'm still testing this out. I could be wrong w/ this one too, but I'll perform
some tests to be sure. In any case, I'll post my results.


16:9
But, as to a final 16:9 AR, I'd still go with it IF you plan on viewing it on a
future WS TV set.

My thoughts are like this.. (after encoding w/out boarders) I think that
because of this, the encoder sees less 16pixel blocks to work with, and as
such, the encoding algorithym reflects this - evidently by raising the bitrate.
At this time, I don't have an reasonable explanation why this happens, when
logic would have it, that the fewer pixels to encode, the less bitrate or final
size would result, ..but doesn't happen like this. I guess that goes to show
you that all it takes is ONE change in an item, and all heck can brake loose.

That's it on this for now.
-vhelp

I'll be encoding 16:9 to 16:9 from now on.. :) But I just have one question...can we still use 2 overscan blocks on 16:9 encodes?

2 overscan blocks ??
 

hi PyRo..

>> 2 overscan blocks 8O

I'm not sure what you mean by this. ..not even sure if I understand it at
all he he..

Care to explain ??
-vhelp

Sure!, but you might want to use "Overlap" instead of "Overscan" blocks for 16:9 to preserve the original height :wink:

@vhelp,
Look at MovieStacker, and you'll see the "Overscan" option :wink:

-kwag

hi Kwag.. :lol:

Yes, I did remember seeing it in MStacker but I thought it was to do
with the video's TOP and BOTTOM where the distored area is (hence my
thought of understanding what this overscan/overlap was for ?? 8O ??
.
.
Am I missing something here ??

Please anyone, ..enlighten me if on the overscan/overlap if I still don't get it.

Tanx guys.
-vhelp

Hi all,

This was taken from vcdhelp's GLOSSARY section. I knew I understood
it well.

Now..

Kwag wrote:
>> Sure!, but you might want to use "Overlap" instead of "Overscan"
>> blocks for 16:9 to preserve the original height

I can't say I ever took this under advisement, and is certainly something
for me to look into. Is this overlap feature some kind of filter add-on,
or just an inclusion of some form of calculation that MStacker uses ??
..And, if so (resolution/resize calculaiton) it's probably something I have to
do manually (if I don't use MStacker) ??

Thanks
-vhelp

Moviestacker will do it automatically for you :). The good thing about it is that you'll be encoding less pixels, which you would not see anyway on your TV, and this translates to a higher CQ value and higher quality :wink:
Use overscan for Full screen movies and use overlap for Wide screen movies.


-kwag

Yes :mrgreen:

Excuse my thickness Kwag :oops: , but could you please post an example script showing the overlap-equivalent to using 2 blocks of overscan in GripCrop. I understand the reasoning of using Overlap versus Overscan, I just don't know how/where to place it properly in my script (see, I don't use MStacker...I do my kvcd's the old-fashioned manual way! :lol: ). Perhaps adding this info to your Optimal Script stickypost might also be a good idea so that everyone will know if/when they should use Overlap instead of Overscan?

Thanks,
-d&c

Hi d&c,

The best way is for you to see an interactive sample script :D
Just run MovieStacker and select "Use GripFit (Crop + Resize)"
Now simply switch between "Resize" and "Overlap" buttons and look at the script window. There you'll see what is being added at the end of the script :wink:

-kwag

hi Kwag..

Ok, thanks again for pointing out MStacker's overscan/overlap.
I gave a quick lookseez and basically saw that it's incorporating a few
lines of code ie, resizebicubic(); addboarders() and/or letterbox() ..
basically what I do,but the hard and long way, and not so fancy as this
app does he he.. So, I'm still in tuned afterall. Great.

I do have a request for Mauddib but he hasn't ben around for a
few days.. I guess he's still having PC problems ??

Thanks for you help.
-vhelp

Hi vhelp,

Just say it! (better if you put in MovieStacker forum)
I'm all ears! :wink: :mrgreen:

About PC problems… yep, they are haunting me this week! :evil: :grrr: :evil:

Haven't actually got round to taking a sample CD to a shop yet...but I posted on the VCDHelp forums, and it seems WS TVs have a "16:9 zoom" function which stretches the picture vertically and horizontally to fill the screen, so I would assume that this will cause any letterboxed 4:3s to look right. Will try to take a CD to a shop soon though.... :wink:

Now I'm not sure about encoding to 4:3 or 16:9...16:9 encodes dont look right on my 4:3 TV, my DVD player completely ignores the fact that it's an anamorphic encode, and either squishes it to fit the screen, or cuts off the sides to fit the screen, and anamorphic encodes do take up more space...I think I might just stick with 4:3......... :? ..or is there a way I could get 16:9s to display correctly on 4:3 TVs?

And another thing..I cant seem to resize all 16:9s properly. True 2.35:1 640x272 resize fine, but other aspect ratios (like those with resolution 640x352) dont seem to resize properly and still look slightly squished (when playing on PowerDVD).

hi PyRo..

When you say "squished" exactly how do you mean ??

Can you U/L a pic or two of your "squshies" ??

When I do 16:9 encodes, I may be off a little, because I don't have a
complete understanding of AR (just yet) but I'm learning a little here and
there.

But, when I do 16:9 encodes, and I play then on my DVD player, they
play fine, based on my memory. And, I just recently did a 16:9 with a
resolution of 352x480. But, I will double-check that to be sure, because
today, I was playing what I thought was one of them, and they did not
play right at all. So, I will try and squeeze in a few 352x480 encodes at
16:9 and burn to CD and see if I was right all along. - I hope I was he he..

If you ARE playing through PDVD and its still not displaying 16:9 on your
PC monitor, then you may have your AR set incorrectly in PDVD. My
version is v3.0 WDVD v3.0 doesn't seem to line any 16:9 encodes from TMPG
other than the VOBs themselves.

-vhelp

By "squished" i mean the picture needs to be stretched horizontally a bit...like people are too tall... :?

I think I have the the aspect ratio set correctly in PowerDVD, I followed your instructions:

Hay PyRo..

Here's what I used in my TMPG encode, based on kdvd template, as this is
how I name my encodes:
I must say, although my DV footage was in a darkly lit scene, it came out very
nice w/ Kwag's KDVD template.

If I don't name them clear enough, later on, when I least expect it, I'll wonder
which template or setting(s) I used in THAT encode, way back when. I've ben there
and done it many times. So, I learn from my mistakes. Now, I basically name all
my encodes w/ my encoding settings. But, sometimes I'll skimp for obvious reasons.

Now, given the above, I have tested it out on my Apex AD-1500, and it plays beautifully
on my 13" TV he he.. Oh, yes.. in 16:9 widescreen view. My DVD player or TV added in
the black bars.. just as I suspected.

My source and specs:
* Canon ZR-10 DV CAM
--** Footage shot in 16:9 mode
* AVIsynth v1.0 beta 5
* vdub v1.4.9
* TMPGEnc v2.53
--** encoded as: IN(16:9) and OUT(16:9)

Process:
DV(filename.avi) -> AVIsynth(Interlace.avs) -> vdub(01.vdr) -> TMPG

Notes:
WDVD v3.0 does not play 16:9 encodes in 16:9 (WS) view, but PDVD v3.0
does, given the above settings (see PyRo..'s note above) and my above
setup and encoding process.

Given my successful expreience above, perhaps you are indeed have a few
flaws in your processes.
Maybe you lay down some specs and processes so we can see where you are
going wrong ??

-vhelp

Source type: XviD *.avi
Source res: 640x272

Script:
Settings in TMPGEnc:
KVCDx3 MPEG-1 NTSC Template
Resolution changed to: 480x480
Aspect ratio: 16:9 525 line (NTSC)
Source aspect ratio: 16:9 525 line (NTSC)
Video arrange Method: Full screen (keep aspect ratio)


When played in PowerDVD with aforementioned settings, looks fine, borders added. When played on TV, fills whole screen. I forget the exact settings, but I think when I set my DVD player (Toshiba SD-220E) to 4:3 it was squished (as I described before) to fit the screen, and when I set it to 16:9, it filled the screen and was in proportion... but had the sides cut off. :?

hi PyRo..

I am with you on this headacke ride. I'm now understading why you are
going crazy w/ all this 16:9 encodes.

Ok, member yesterday.. when I said (in my above post) that i got a 16:9
w/ boarders added in my 352x480 WS encodes.. ?? .. ??
Well, today this morning, ITS NOT PLAYING 16:9 ..RATs !@!@!

If it plays at all, its playing double-lined (cant make it out) or else it's
playing FullScreen (FS) !! RATs !@!@!

Ok, so I started to thinking, and back-tracking my steps. What did I do to
get 16:9 and boarders added in my final 16:9 encodes ??
.
.
Then, I remembered something.. :idea: .. I had the DVD disk of the Movie
The Fifth Element in hte DVD player, and when I had turned on the
unit, it started playing (on widescreen side) ( :idea: light-bulb :idea: )

So, sure enough, I followed the same course of action. I turned off the unit
and then turned back on, and put in my DVD disk, let it start, and then I
took it out, and then put in MY CDRW disk, and guess what ?? It started to
play - but only this time, it was FULLSCREEN ..RATs !@!@!

Either my eyes have deceaved me yesterday, or I've ben at it far TOO long
in this hobby of mine 8O 8O

Bottom line, I am going to have to REALLY work on this 16:9 issue because
it's something I really want to use in my DV projects, and if I'm going to
take advantage of the lower resolution to beat the bitrate rage, I'm gonna
have to really look into this seriously :roll:

I think that the next time I perform this test, I'm deffinately going to have
to RECORD it to DV TAPE for proof, because I'm tired to being in error on this
issue - - I mean, I know what I saw.. at least I think.. no wait a min..
Now, I'm really.. !@! RATs !@!

PyRo..
I'll get back to ya IF and WHEN I do have something concrete !!
..to be continued

-vhelp

[quote="kwag"]Hey Kwag. I've been following this rule for all my kvcd's but now that I've switched to kdvds and have a widescreen tv, how does this rule apply? I make all my encodes in anamorphic for the 16:9 tv, so there is no more letterboxing. Does this mean all my encodes are technically "full screen" and I should use resize instead of overlap? That's what I have been doing, but do notice I am missing some information at the top and bottom of my 16:9 tv that I do see on a 4:3 tv, and I was wondering if this may have somethign to do with it.

Hi J-Wo,

Try resize (not overlap), but with only 1 block tv overscan.
That should still expand to the edges of the tv screen, and you should still have the top and bottom flush with the tv edges.
If that's not the case, then use overlap so the top and bottom fill the screen. But then you'll loose a couple of pixels on the left and right of the movie.

-kwag