ChangeFPS vs. AssumeFPS vs Virtualdub?
 

So far I do all my PAL to NTSC conversion this way Vdub>> Change FPS under the Video TAB and save without audio on directstreamcopy.
But lately I decided to try again doing the FPS conversion using AVS. In the past and now I found that, Assume FPS gives me a weird effect like everything goes much more slow than it should, I know 24 fps is slower than 25 but the results are not good. Using Change FPS I get an effect like the camera goes fast/slow/fast/slow, dont know how to describe it, but it looks like the camera is shaking a lot.
The best result IMHO is using Vdub to do the FPS conversion but it has his downsides; I use subtitles in 90% of the movies so if I have a wroking sob ofr a PAL movie I have to resync the subs to fit the new FPS (its not hard bu it takes time), and I need a considerable amount of space to resync the audio, cos I have to open the mp3 file with Sound Forge save it as WAV and re encode it using Headache. Wich is not funny cos if the m1v file comes a little bit big, I (almost) always renecode the audio to a lower btr, and If I have to do this I must do the whole process again (I could save the WAV but it takes to much space).
Now lately I've been using the Change FPS to do Concerts since I have a picky ear and I can notice the change of speed on music (on speech It's almost unnoticeable).
Now what I like to know if theres any other way to do the FPS conversion that wouldnt requiere audio/subtitles resync or at least gaves me better results without to much hassle. Preferable using AVS.
I let you here the script Im using now

Any Tip idea or hint I could try??

EDIT: I tryed using TMPGenc to change the FPS but the result is a jump/skip every second or so.

You should'nt use ChangeFPS for a such little fps change. Assume FPS should normally do the job very well. Are you sure you didn't do any mistake in the parameters ? I never had any problem with that.

Note: AssumeFPS does _exactly_ what vdub does.

well as far I can remember I didnt do any mistake with that. And I know it should do the same as Vdub but for some reason the resul was not the same when I tested it. Im doing an encode now so I can test, but probably tomorrow gonna try it with a small clip to see the diference.
By any chance you sont know any other method to convert PAL to NTSC?

Thanx in advance :D

There isn't any other !

Thanks Dialhot, I was looking for an answer to this exact question. I was using ChangeFPS for all my 25 --> 23.976 fps until I noticed that when you select Format Conversion in MovieStacker it adds the line AssumeFPS (23.976, true). Just wondering what the "true" part meant and why you say ChangeFPS should not be used.

And now for AgNa, there is a much simpler way to do your audio conversion which also requires less disk space. Open your AVI with VirtualDub and do a directstream extraction of the audio, which in most cases will save it as an MP3 file. Then load this up in BeSweet and select the preset for PAL --> NTSC conversion, and save as an MP2. Takes much less time and less diskspace. If Besweet doesn't like your MP3 audio you may have to decompress the audio from the AVI and save it as a WAV file, but in most cases that is not necessary.

@ J-Wo

"true" means that the audiosamplerate will be modyfied so that the sound still will be insync but this effect will only be done if your source contains audio.

So IF you do your job using Besweet afterwards to handle the audio separate using the OAT Settings in beswwet you DO NOT use true as Besweet takes care about all this.

And if you set to "true", you just have to let in Besewwt everything as it is bit activating SSRC to do tha 44.1khz conversion or in case of KDVD the 48khz conversion.

Sorry I forgot to reply to this one.
I dont use Besweet cos for some reason when I do FPS change with it, the file comes out with cracks and click wich is pretty anoying.
Now What I noticed after Dialhot reaply is that AssumeFPS is that it only gives me that weird fast-slow effect in some files and not in all of them. Any idea why? Using Vdub that doesnt happend, so for now until I find the cause for this I just make the sample and if I can see that effect on the sample using AssumeFPS I just go back and use vdub.
thanx for your help guys :D

Maybe some videos got 23.976 and some 29.976 thats why AssumeFPS does output different qualities, said sometimes jerky movement.

In case of 23.976 sources you can speedup/slowdown to 25.000 and vice versa.

But in case of 29.976 you have to do an inverse telecine to get back to the 23.976 FPS IF your video is a Film which is originally shot at 23.976 and all Hollywood-Blockbuster Movies are in that FPS state.

Do not use Virtualdub as Frameserver anymore as Vdub frameserving is slower and no matter what input, the input will be convertet to RGB32! which also slows down the process and each colorconversion does seen as a whole a punch to the final quality.

If using Avisynth you can treat the source in the colorspace as it is and the only following colorspace conversion will be done WITHIN the following encoder (TmpgEnc RGB24 and CCE YUY2 ..... both finally do output a KVCD YV12 4:2:0 mpeg to your disk)

the cracks and clicks in an encoded .mp2 file are most likely the result of 'toolame'. try using 'mp2enc' instead in besweet

Unfortunally, I had sometimes these cracks too and I use mp2enc since a long time.

Well after some testing I found that the jerky movment is not a result of AssumeFPS, well I done some convertions and the result is optimal, but in others using the same scrip and with the same FPS in the source I get that effect... :roll: For now I couldnt find the reson why some files do that and others not, so for now after I encode the sample I check it and if I get tha jerky playback I go to Vdub (I dont framerate I just select Direct Stream copy) and save it as 23.976 and that solves all.
I wonder if the files that gaves me that jerky playback were originlay 29.976 converted to 25fps :roll:

I didn't understand you well, thats why I ask:

What do you mean by the quote I posted above?

Do you got NOW some 29.976 which you wonna convert or what :?:

The only (senseful and correct) way I know is, if you want to go from 25fps to 23.976 FPS is

-via selectevery or decimate (and thats a sensible and only for experts way, look at Doom9.org where Sharfis_brain did that)

- or the most easy way, to add that assumeFPS(23.976) and using afterwards Besweets OTA settings 25.000 to 23.976 to get the audio in sync.

So .... your workout to me seems really strange and I don't know if your sources already got some nice problems.

In case of 25 fps sources there will be never a need to convert to 29.976 NTSC Video.

SO the best way to understand you and to solve your problems is that you fill out the following Questions and post them filled out again:

-----------------------------Please Fill out----------------------------------

SOURCE:

- Filetype (divx/xvid/mpeg/mjpg - so what says Gspot??) ? :
- interlaced(means combing on fast moving scenes) or not interlaced ? :
- already jerky playback or blended Frames? :
- Framerate (29.976, 23.976, 25.000) ? :
- Resolution ?
- Audiosamplerate (44.1000, 48.000) ? :

(some answers you get if using Gspot on the source!)


DESTINATION:

- KVCD or KDVD ?:
- Mode (mpeg1 or mpeg2) ?:
- Framerate (29.976, 23.976, 25.000) ? :
- Resolution ?
- Audiosamplerate (44.100khz KVCD, 48.000khz KDVD) ? :


Avisynth:

- Post your last state of your script here!:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------Please Fill out----------------------------------

SOURCE:

- Filetype (divx/xvid/mpeg/mjpg - so what says Gspot??) ? : Divx or Xvid iit's the same, but I have to check further in my next encodes
- interlaced(means combing on fast moving scenes) or not interlaced ? : non interlaced, but Im not 100% sure
- already jerky playback or blended Frames? : no, I have perfect playback
- Framerate (29.976, 23.976, 25.000) ? :25.000
- Resolution ? Variables, all the same result
- Audiosamplerate (44.1000, 48.000) ? : 48Khz

(some answers you get if using Gspot on the source!)


DESTINATION:

- KVCD or KDVD ?: KVCD
- Mode (mpeg1 or mpeg2) ?: MPEG1 or 2 no diference
- Framerate (29.976, 23.976, 25.000) ? :23.976
- Resolution ? 480x480, 352x480 or 704x480
- Audiosamplerate (44.100khz KVCD, 48.000khz KDVD) ? 44.100


Avisynth:

LoadPlugin("D:\kvcds\codecs\MPEG2Dec3.dll")
LoadPlugin("D:\kvcds\codecs\grip.dll")
LoadPlugin("D:\kvcds\codecs\STMedianFilter.dll")
LoadPlugin("D:\kvcds\codecs\asharp.dll")
LoadPlugin("D:\kvcds\codecs\unfilter.dll")
LoadPlugin("D:\kvcds\codecs\blockbuster.dll")
LoadPlugin("D:\kvcds\codecs\atc.dll")
LoadPlugin("D:\kvcds\codecs\UnDot.dll")
LoadPlugin("D:\kvcds\codecs\DctFilter.dll")
LoadPlugin("D:\kvcds\codecs\Deen.dll")
LoadPlugin("D:\kvcds\codecs\Sampler-2.5.dll")
LoadPlugin("D:\kvcds\codecs\Convolution3DYV12.dll" )
LoadPlugin("D:\kvcds\codecs\VSFilter.dll")

AviSource("mymovie.avi",false)
##AddBorders(13,0,0,0)
BlindPP(cpu=4)
Blockbuster(method="noise",detail_min=1,detail_max =3,variance=0.1,seed=1)
Convolution3D(1, 6, 12, 6, 8, 2.8, 0)
GripCrop(480, 480, overscan=1, source_anamorphic=false)
GripSize(resizer="LanczosResize")
Undot()
TemporalSoften(2,7,7,3,2)
DCTFilter(1,1,1,1,1,1,0.5,0)
GripBorders()
TextSub("D:\kvcds\mymovie.ssa")
AssumeFPS(23.976)


What I tried to say before is that maybe the original DVD was a 29,976Fps and converted to an avi (Divx or Xvid) at 25fps, if someone have a reson to do that. And taking it down from the 25fps file to 23.976 makles the effect apear. I will try to post a link to a small sample tomorrow so you guys can see better what Im getting sometimes when I usse AssumeFPS. Sorry for the late response but Im not getting email notification for my posts after the second reply 8O :roll:

Very good idea!
So lets see.
A Sample of 30 Sec. would be very good

Inc.

I've been watching this thread to see the results because I too have a similar problem when trying to work with AVIs with a 25 fps frame rate. I can can use VDub to change them to 29.97 fps for use on a regular DVD without any playback problems. Going to 23.976 is jerky. I assumed that going from 25 fps to nearly 24 fps would natuarally give me jerks in 1 second intervals as it's dropping a frame a second. My hope was that after I convert the AVI to 29.97 fps that my encoding it to MPG at 23.976 fps will give me better video.

I'm trying to learn to work with AviSynth, but I seem to be progressing slowly at it. I got bogged down in all the info this site has on it and the many examples of scripts I've seen. Maybe I'll get some use out of it on this problem, and finally get Silent Running on KVCD. :)

:!: :!:
Do you use a lossless codec for that ? Or are you using Divx codec ?
Never convert a divx in an other divx.

This codec is the worst codec ever ! And your KVCD will be all but good after that.

It's not easy to learn all in fw time but you have to use avisynth to process your videos else you won't be happy with your KVCD and all your work will be lost.

Ok heres the SAMPLE

Is that the already encoded sample?????

Because only every 3 frames there's a movement!

Means the second and third frames are just a copy of the first, mega stuttering! And that in case of 23.976 encoding!

I want to see a little part of the orig source! Not the encoded one.
Thx.

Means:

111222333444555666777 = this would be the count 21 Frames

Just to know, how is this video encoded without the line "AssumeFPS" ?

Edit: lol, we had the same idea Incredible :-D

Thats what I meant Phil, no Avisynth, nothing added or performed on that, just a sample of the avi in its orig state. :D

To me it seems as its a wrong decimating and afterwards converting-, not assumingFPS :!: :idea:

Ok heres another sample with the respective untouched source, the script I used is the same that I posted before.

Sample
Original

Okay. I just encode your sample myself and as I guessed, I do not have any problems !

So you should check :
- your xvid codec (be sure you use xvid and NOT 3ivx or ffdshow)
- the codec settings (disable ALL post processing)
- your tmpgenc settings (it's better to save them as text tmpgenc project and post it here).

Thanx a lot!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Ok I Updated my Xvid coded and seems the problem is gone :D, I'm (and was) using Koepis Xvid codec since I got a lot of recomendations and already experienced troubles with FFdshow in the past. Now I post the TMPG setings in case you can finde some other error or mistake that could put me into troubles

Ahh And BTW when I use AssumeFPS I always get an undersized file, any ideas why? I use manual prediction :)

Thanks for the info Phil.

I was using a DivX codec. I didn't know any better? :( But now I do.

What's you codec of choice?

Also, I was looking at the script that was posted and my AviSynth install. I do not have grip.dll, nor can I find it anywhere. I've got gripfit_YV12.dll. Are they the same? (I know this should be in the AviSynth forum!)

Ken

That can be due to the place of assumeFPS line. I think it have to be before the sampler line, but if you already do that, you can try to put it after, just to see.

0 as min bitrate ? Your standalone can handle that ? They are few to accept that.

This should be "Hight" or "Motion Estimate" (if you are using MA script).

:lol: I never saw that "VCD non standard" was called "illegal" in the project :-)

Be carrefull we were talking about Xvid, not divx. The codec are different.

You must have on you PC _only_ the last Divx release (5.0.5 or 5.1.1) and a Nic's (or Koepi's) Xvid codec. That's all.

Yes they are.

Did somebody told you that you are a very patient guy?? :D

I dont use 0 as minimun bitrate, even when my player supports it I only used it to make the sample I posted, the same goes for the Normal speed, I always use High Quality :D
And Im gonna try your tip about the position of Sampler, I use it after the AssumeFPS line but Im gonna try after and see what happens.
One more time , Thanx a lot for your help, your time and your patient :D

What would the be the best way to convert AC3 audio from 25 fps to 23.976 fps? Should I convert to wav first?

Also, is it the general conclusion that AssumeFPS is the way to convert the video :?:

What I do is to Convert the AC3 audio to WAV with Headache, then I adjust the time to the new FPS (25.000 to 23.976 = 104,271% longer audio file) and from now on since Dialhot put the light in my way Im gonna be using Assume FPS, but not for Music Concerts or videos, since that requieres a time streching of the audio wich I can really notice on music :roll: , So I think for that Im gonna be using Change FPS or directly loading the 25fps source and selec the 23,976 template, that gives me a little jump wich is only noticeable on moving camera. Except someone can give me a better idea