Phil wrote:
"Think about that... You too Jorel"
i'm trying Phil...but it hurt so much!
:lol: :lol: (just kiddin)

i understood....but please Phil, do me a favor,
test this script (do a sample) for me and post what you see wrong (if any) :

GripCrop(720,480,overscan=1,source_anamorphic=true ,dest_anamorphic=false)
BicubicResize(GripFit_resize_width,GripFit_resize_ height,0,0.6)
GripBorders()

i know, your sources are PAL, "transpose" it please!

:)
waiting...

:-).
In fact first try was too awfull to decently report it. I mean it wasn't only bad "compared to tmpgenc". It's really bad "period". There is no way to consider what I obtained as watchable, even for a newbie.
But I used all parameters you gave to me. So I surely did a mistake somewhere. I have to check back and redo some tests before to take a conclusion. And I didn't find the time this we.

jorel, i think you don't understand Phil completely. He doesn't say that you sample will be wrong. He say maybe can have any error, cause of :
Murphy's law (do you know it?)
Do you want take this risk?
Anyway, if your sample is ok, go ahead. Why not? :D

In fact Jorel you already now that a resizer does not just resize the picture by deeply modify it : you never use Lanczosresize because with it you see "ants", isn't it ?

The same, you use bicubic precise (0 and 0.6) and not bicubic standard (0.33 and 0.33). Why ? Surely because you find the precise more "at your taste" than the standard one (ofen found "too soft").

This way you can understand that resizing is not a passive operation (like cropping). It's actually as "active" as a spatial filter like asharp or unfilter !

from Prodater64
"Anyway, if your sample is ok, go ahead. Why not?"
if nothing is wrong.....yeah,..why not?
:wink:

Phil:
yes, i see "moving ants" using lanczos and don't like it!

and bicubic precise is my taste!

i always use asharp or unfilter (gentle values)!

again i understood!

:wink:

but please Phil,
don't "think" in the result from the script that i posted.
:arrow: do a sample and "SEE" if have something wrong, PLEASE :!:
:lol: :lol:

do you understand me now :?: :?:
:lol: :lol:

i'm still waiting....
:wink:

Sorry my pal but my faster PC is currently encodign a KDVD and the slower one is doing KVCDs :-(
I won't have the possibility to test that now. But why do you want me to test that ? You already report that this script solved your problems with gripcrop. Why do you expect from me exactly ?

why?....you ask....

like Prodater64 wrote:
"I'm here learning (¡you are a professor!), i'm an "asker"!"

you are one of my professors here Phil,
:arrow: this is the reason!
your opinion and the opinion of others professors here have weight!
don't need names, everybody knows who are this teachers, is very clear.
:wink:

not kiddin,
i can wait.....

reply
 

I would want to know:
1. When use letterbox(16,16,16,16) for movie 2.35:1 or 1.85:1 I do not lose nothing because I add the borders. It's true?

2. Why you use "cpu=4" since that incredible advises to use this option
for sources much compressed like divx?

by

CPU=4 is a spatial filter in general and therefore not only purposed to work with divx! Watch the source and its quality then you do choose if applying this filter is needed. (I do choose it almost everytime as it won't harm ;-) )

By letterboxing 16px at each edge, YOU WILL loose effective picture information BUT you won't recognise it as this area is WITHIN the overscan area of your TV and wont be shown anyhow.

See here where the Overscan-Thing is explained:
www.incredible.de.tf/aspectratios.html

reply
 

ok, i have read your guide.

can I make an example practical?

we take a film 2.35:1

with
Crop(8, 72, 704, 432)

We make a frame 704x432 and crop on the left and right 8 px
while at the top and bottom 72px.

filters.................

with
Addborders(0,72,0,72)
we add the borders at the top and bottom (72px).


with
LetterBox(16,16,16,16)

We make the letterboxing 16px at each edge.

until it is all right here?
With this procedure from ours frame original we lose 8px on the left and 8px to right because of ours cropping.
Then we lose others 16px on the left and others 16px to right because of the letterboxing, these but we would have lost them however because of the overscan of the tv.

if I do not want to lose nothing, I will have to use then

Crop(0, 72, 720, 432)

but in this way I will have a frame of 720x432.

if I do not want to lose nothing with the letterboxing, what I have to do?
perhaps:

Addborders(16,72,16,72)
LetterBox(16,16,16,16)

it's right?
by

Re: reply
 

Everything is right.

If you don't want to lose anything you musn't use letterbox but you must RESIZE the picture to be fully outside the TV-overscan area and then add a border ARROUND the picture that will represent the actual area masked by the TV-overscan.

If you want to see visually the diff between letterbox (called also overlapping) and addborders (resizing) you can use moviestacker. Next the the "overscan" setting you have a "resize/overlap" choice. Change from one to the other and observe how crop and resize settigns change.

Just circles walking :!: :?:

Absolutly :-)

reply
 

:?: :?: :?: :?

Re: reply
 

This question was talked before in this same thread.
http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=69187#69187

reply
 

ok, it goes well, crop is better than resize. this I have understood it.
Why not fairies, inasmuch as you are of the experts, of the guides in which it comes explained all in clear way and exhausting.
"Object: Like making a Kdvd from a dvd ". A thread can be made in which explaining all problematic the relative ones to the object. I as an example have read to all the guide of vmesquita 2,00, but this not enough alone. For being able to comprise to bottom the argument I must read the several one post of the several one thread and ask, naturally, information on the argument. To times the questions are banal for who know already the matter. Many concepts base that emerge from the several one thread, second me, to have to be re-united in an only one thread, that they can serve from miniguides for all.
by
:wink:

Re: reply
 

I understand your point but there is something that often (always ?) miss to people reading a guide : the guide reports only its author won advices/choices/tastes/habits !

No one has the only one truth. All is matter of taste and every tastes are in the nature.

In my KVCD guide for instance you would find "use besweet for audio, set it in stereo (and not dual chanel), do not use asharp in any script, and mux all with tmpgenc (not bbmpeg)".

Not sure this will be accepted by all readers here.

Re: reply
 

Be shure these 72px are correct on your 2.35:1 Source (encoding letterboxed non anamorph???)!
(I got a headache right now, so Phil will check that for you :D )

Actually 72 pixels is the border size for a 2.35:1 movie encoded in anamorphic.
If you want to make it letterboxed, the size is 104 :!:

BUT be carrefull ! All this is for PAL resolution (height = 576, not 480).

In all cases you must check the actual border size in DVD2AVI when you are doing the d2v project.

oh my GOD!

inc, Phil, zagor, Prodater64, Jell, everybody please:

do a picture using vdub

withGripCrop(720,480,overscan=1,source_anamorphic= true,dest_anamorphic=false)
# with or without overscan, no matter
BicubicResize(GripFit_resize_width,GripFit_resize_ height,0,0.6):
GripBorders()

and another picture loading the same source but using crop and letterbox
and post the 2 pictures here,PLEASE..
no matter how i use crop and or letterbox,i cut more than the borders,
:arrow: i loose part of the scene :!: :!: :!: :cry:

the only way to remove my doubts is if one of you post 2 pictures
using vdubmod(for example) with the 2 scripts!
no matter if is 720x480, 480x480, 352x240...your choice but...
:arrow: please, post the 2 pictures here!!!

i need to see if you can use it WITHOUT loose part of the SCENE!
(sorry the caps lock,is to realce the intention)
:lol:

please,not kiddin!
:wink:

Don't worry my friend, I'm working now, but I'll post those pic's this night.
BTW, I got an access violation error with gripborders. Do you know how I can solve it? (if you don't want post it in this thread send me a PM)

Jorel,

There is no need of posting anything : you will ALWAYS loose some pixels. That is a rounding matter !

Open Moviestacker; uncheck the "use gipfit box", open you source, set the corrrect parameters for your destination and see in the "Crop" are how much you are cropping !

No you want to see what happen if you do not crop ? In front of the Crop zone, set "No cropping" insteed of "accurate". And see HOW MUCH percent you screw up the A/R :!:

Thats is why you should STOP to use gripcrop. It's far better to use Moviestacker and play on the overscan/overlap and rounding border cursor to find the better compromise "A/R error <-> cropping".

That is what I do anytime.

Lets go further:
Watch the new FitCD as it now comes with better resizing routines and a much more sexier layout :D

A pic:
http://www.sysh.net/pic/fitcd.png

And the D/L adress:
http://www.sysh.net/fitcd.html

Phil, pay attention as by your last sentence many noobs will do think about the usage of GripCrop in case of your Optimal scripts where you do use it. As they wont understand the sense of your post above like I or others do :wink:

reply
 

I have used moviestacker, and now
:idea: I have understood that cropping to 704x576 and using overlap the error of aspect the ratio is 0,00% :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D

byby.

@jorel
if you have need of help, there are I, :wink:
hello

Re: reply
 

Now you can understand better the line I said some post ago and that Prodater remembered this afternoon :

please zagor do this for me and post the pictures (if possible):

this scripts are from MovieStacker like recomendations.
:arrow: open the paint 2 times

Mpeg2Source("D:\xx\x.d2v")
BicubicResize(704, 352, 0, 0.6, 0, 0, 720, 480)
AddBorders(8, 64, 8, 64)

open in vdub (mod) and copy frame to clipboard and paste in paint.(1)

then,load the same frame with :

Mpeg2Source("D:\xx\x.d2v")
GripCrop(720, 480, overscan=1,source_anamorphic=true,dest_anamorphic= false)
GripSize(resizer="BicubicResize")
GripBorders()

copy frame to clipboard and paste in paint. (2)

:arrow: what do you see comparing the pictures :?:
:wink:

after your test i will post what i see,ok?
:wink:

reply
 

yes, i can. :D

I still don't know what is your point here but I wanted to say that we know Moviestacker has a bug (or a weakness) into the way he computes the resinzing parameter. We also know that FitCD is better on this point.

:arrow: but we really don't know how Gripcrop does it's own computing !
Perhaps it has the same bug than Moviestacker. Perhaps it's worst !

All this post simply because you don't want to drop griopcrop ?

Phil wrote:
"All this post simply because you don't want to drop griopcrop ?"

no Phil, i think that i see EXACTLY what you wrote!
....maybe a bug in Moviestacker or gripfilter?!?!?

:wink:

<edited>
....or gripfilter!

So while zagor is comparing your two scripts, do the same with the last FitCD release as suggested by Inc and give us your opinion about it please.

i did Phil!
:wink:

zagor, please
do another script using: (from fitcd 121-overscan=1)

Mpeg2Source("D:\xx\x.d2v")
BicubicResize(704,352,0,0.6,0,0,720,480)
AddBorders(8,64,8,64)

do the same like using the other scripts, paste in paint(3)...compare!

(are the same parameters like in the script from moviestacker!)
:wink:

Phil, inc, zagor, Prodater64, Jell, ...my results and what i see:

using the script form Moviestacker or fitcd with bilinear/Bicubic/Lanczos are equal....
of course, no surprise!

using gripresize,
the image is concave,
the scene is "out of the center" in the picture (the image down and go to the left)
and loose parts of the scene within the (black)board!
i was clear? (my poor english explain something?) :oops:

then using the script: .....that seems with correct aspect radio....
(left alone gripresize )

Mpeg2Source("D:\LK3\lk3.d2v")
BicubicResize(704,352,0,0,720,480)
AddBorders(8,64,8,64)

i ask:
:arrow: HOW and WHY use letterbox and/or crop :?:

THIS is my doubt Phil :!:
:? :? :? :?
:wink:

You are so clear than you already describe this MONTHS ago and that is what make me decide to drop Gripcrop :!:

Do you understand now why I'm wondering why you still use it ? What happens to you during your time away from KVCD ? Alien abduction ? :-)

Jorel : can I knwo what were ALL your settings in moviestacker because I can't obtain the same results in any way.

Can you also tell us what was the error % of "Aspect Ratio" ? For sure it was quite big.

Phil,

see that my last encode here:
http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9927&start=0
i don't use gripresize no more!


see that script from moviestacker and fitcd:
BicubicResize(704, 352, 0, 0.6, 0, 0, 720, 480)
AddBorders(8, 64, 8, 64)

and with this script that give me the problems posted:
GripCrop(720, 480, overscan=1,source_anamorphic=true,dest_anamorphic= false)
GripSize(resizer="BicubicResize")
GripBorders()

:arrow: using overscan=1 like posted in all scripts in this thread the error=0% :!: :!:

then, my doubt remains:
:arrow: HOW and WHY use letterbox and/or crop :?:
:?

<edited>

Alien abduction ?
no, i'm alien! (from krypton)
:lol:

Excuse me , GUYS !!!
Can u see any visually noticable distortion in image when u get error 1%,2% or even 3.5% in moviestacker ??? :wink: :wink: :wink:
If so 8O 8O 8O
bman

I think till 2.5% it is not really noticeable...

bman,
like i posted before:
"using gripresize,
the image is concave,
the scene is "out of the center" in the picture (the image down and go to the left)
and loose parts of the scene within the (black)board! "

visually noticable distortion in image (with or without overscan 1,2,3)
it's not from Moviestacker or fitcd bman...
:arrow: it's from "gripresize" !

with that script from moviestacker and fitcd: (seems correct AR)
BicubicResize(704, 352, 0, 0.6, 0, 0, 720, 480)
AddBorders(8, 64, 8, 64)

HOW and WHY use letterbox and/or crop ?
my doubt remains!
:?

As said above, Moviestacker NEVER gives me the parameters that you have. So I can't verify that your error is 0% and try to understand why and how you can have this as I don't.

So please, give me ALL THE PARAMETERS that you set into Moviestaker : size of the source, size of the dest, A/R of the source, A/R of the dest, all borders of rounding (2,4,...16 ? or even 32?), crop to "accurate" or "no crop" or something else ?
All boxes checked also (anamorphic, PAL, IBU...)

ANYTHING please !

I'm sorry but I have big doubt that you can have a %0 !

Do a screenshot if you can !

Phil,
are you "lazy" to read today?!?!?
:lol: :lol: (kiddin)

i posted:
"see that script from
:arrow: moviestacker and fitcd: (just the same)
BicubicResize(704, 352, 0, 0.6, 0, 0, 720, 480)
AddBorders(8, 64, 8, 64)
and
and with this script that give me the problems posted:
GripCrop(720, 480, overscan=1,source_anamorphic=true,dest_anamorphic= false)
GripSize(resizer="BicubicResize")
GripBorders()

using overscan=1 like posted in all scripts in this thread the error=0% "

more:
crop accurate was used but
crop max height or accurate give the same values like posted!
source anamorphic!...(details in gripresize)

Phil wrote:
"I'm sorry but I have big doubt that you can have a %0 ! "
again i confirm:
:arrow: overscan=1 like posted in all scripts in this thread the error=0%

:wink:
that's all in the scripts (and the source, of course)

i don't know how to post the picture here
(but i can send by mail..include screenshot from fitcd and moviestacker)

:oops:

If DLing Moviestacker at office, installing it, opening it, trying to put the few info you gave into it, playing with ALL settings during 10 minutes and NEVER obtaining what you have (addborders(8,64,8,64) or even a 0% error)) is beeing lazy, so I am :wink:

EDIT: I just find which settings you have checked (actually, Moviestacker probably did it automatically when you loaded your source) : IUT-R BT !!!

Do you understand now why I wanted ALL the settings !

In your case that's right error is 0%. So now, the answer to yoru question :

"why letterbox insteed of cropping" ?
Because :
1/ I already said that "I rather to loose 1% of picture than to see 100% of it screwed up by the interpolation used in the resizer

and

2/ I do ANAMORPHIC DVD. And you can try to verify : no way to obtain a 0% error in this case.

FYI: I did a lot of DVD that have a 4 pixel border on right and left side. I don't know why but actually, it's better to crop it.