KDVD: simplier way than vmesquita CCE guide ?
 

Is there a simplier way to do file prediction for CCE in making say a 1300 mb K-DVD than the CCE guide by Vmesquita ?
(not that there's anything wrong with it) :wink:
just alil too complicated for a newbie to cce like me.

I want my CCE target MPV file to be 1300 mb,
So that I can Mux a 110 mb 128kbps mp2 file with it (as the KDVD audio)

Someone Please help a brothaman out, Cuz I'm gettin sick of trail & error
(especially when it takes 4-5 hours for CCE to complete the task jus to see if its the size I want or not) :cry:

I really don't see what is complicated in the guide : take the number or frame, divde by the number of minutes, then by the length of the GOP. Divide the target size (here 1300 MB - the size of your audio) by the number obtained. That's give you the size your sample must be.

Encode a sample with Q=40, see it's size. Is it too big ? Yes -> Raise the Q to 50 and redo a sample.
Is it too low ? Yes -> Lower the Q to 30 and redo a sample...

With 3 or 4 sample you should have the correct Q.

That is called manual prediction and it is really simple.

Or you can always try CQMatic with TMPEG :idea:
In the end, you'll get a KDVD which should look pretty good too :!:
Unless you just want to use CCE, for some personal reason :roll:

-kwag

I think the only reason is the time. And that's true that TMPGENC is a pain in the ass when talking about KDVD resolution :cry:

@ Untouchable

Three ways of prediction with CCE:

1. VMesquitas way in his guide

2. Slicer() ping pong prediction (as to me it gives the most accurate result but its a manual .avs job which gets very easy once you are in it.

3. Jonny's Qcce prediction tool.
(Where I don't know whats your real problem when using it, just add your personal safety margin factor as said in your last Qcce Thread.

The reason why I don't like Vmesquitos way is cuz there too much math & programs & other stuff involved.
I actually lowered the QC factor (Johnnys method) to 12 & Min Q TO 5 & MaxQ to 40
& set target to 1300mb (for mpv file) & the bloody thing came out even larger than b4 :cry:
Yes I hate Tmpg cuz it takes too long plus CCE video is clearer !! 8)

How would 1 go about the Slicer() ping pong prediction method ?

just hit this link

http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7626

and follow incredible's 1st post

1. Why don't you just determine in Qcce as endzise 1200MB if everytime your archieved results end up 100MBs over? That would be your personal safety margin. Don't manipulate the archived CQ but the wanted filesize in the calculation.

2. Where appears CCE that Clearer? At that AVG Bitrtaes like when putting 3 Videos on one DVD-R they come out almost the same.

You can try my calculator to make calculations easier:

http://www.kvcd.net/forum/viewtopic....ght=calculator

Compare a 1400 mb file from Tmpgenc with a 1400 mb file from CCE

I garantee the CCE 1 will be sharper in color, clearer & less blocks

IT'S REALLY WEIRD, If I lower the targetsize I get a bigger file lol
WTF, I'm goin for the calculator 1st vmesquta, if that don't work I'll go for ping pong

Sorry, don't blame me, but .... I did compare on many encodings and I see the Quality aspect resumee in an average.

As you just switched to CCE so you can't guarantee that in general ;-)

Every encoder gots its pro and cons, so it dpends (as I always say) on the movie and its compressionability etc. etc. ect.
CCE behaves different in its Bitrate Allocation and that you also can adjust in the Quantisation Characteristics. (more bitrate to higher complex areas OR more bitrate to average/non complex parts. And exactly that Bitrate allocation gets even better IF the avg Bitrate gets higher and I'm define "high" seen as a bitrate viewn by the producers of CCE, not our "high" bitrates ast KDVD :)

AND CCE does work internally from YUY2 to YV12 mpeg!
TmpgEnc does work internally from RGB24 to YV12 mpeg!

Means: If you get in CCE with the MA i.e. which does frameserve a YV12 stream the pre-internal colorconversations will be result a little bit different.
And thats also why someone should know that when generating complex avs scripts incl. some colorspace conversions.
(and thats maybe the argument Why you did archive in some cases better coloroutput cause seen in a whole the whole process didn't need to do that much colorconversations in total. ;-)

But anyhow, I use CCE on 3 movies to 1 DVD-R too, but I just wanted to pooint that above out ;-)

lol ok ok so I'm too much of a newbie ta garantee anything but I've bin using Tmpgenc for years now (for vcd, DVD's ta send ta uk,kvcd,)
& After using CCE for 2 days I can say that it beats tmpgenc in the output quality of mpeg2

Anyhow for the ping pond method, How do I tell CCE what I want my final filesize to be (so it knows what to test for)
I put the avsi file i the avisynth plugins folder & added slicer line to my script

Mpeg2Source("E:\delete\1.d2v")

TomsMoComp(1, 15, 1)
undot()
asharp(1, 4)
GripCrop(704, 480, source_anamorphic=false)
GripSize(resizer="BicubicResize")
STMedianFilter(3, 3, 1, 1 )
MergeChroma(blur(1.5))
MergeLuma(blur(0.1))

ScriptClip(" nf = YDifferenceToNext()" +chr(13)+ "unfilter( -(fmin(round(nf)*2, 100)), -(fmin(round(nf)*2, 100)) ).TemporalSoften( fmin( round(2/nf), 6), round(1/nf) , round(3/nf) , 1, 1) ")

VobSub("D:\DVD_VIDEO\VIDEO_TS\VTS_10_0")
GripBorders()
LetterBox(16, 16, 16, 16)

function fmin( int f1, int f2) {
return ( f1<f2 ) ? f1 : f2
}

#
Slicer(2,18,00,2,0)
####

Thats what My script looks like lol
I AM LOST , Do I load this into CCE or Johnnys QCCE ?
& How do I tell the programs what I want as a final target size say
1310 mb with audio (without mux)

Is this script with slicer even right ?
LOST LOST LOST LOST !!

1. I gave you above the explanation "edited" to my last post according to better color ;-)

2. Please read carefully that thread about ping-pong slicing!
There its mentioned how do you calculate the needed sample size.
Audioslave there gave also a nice explanation of his way

So as you use slicer(2,x,x,x,x) that would mean 2% of the movie will be predicted! As therefore you should take your final streamsize, subtract the audiosize and 2% from this result has to be matched.

Forget it !! :cry: This is all alil too hard for me,
Im gonna try 1 last thing (This may be my problem)
For Johnny's "QCCE" my minimum bitrate is 64 & max bitrate is 3000.
Maybe I should lower the max bitrate to say ummm 2250 Kbps ?
waiting for a reply & then I'ma try lol :wink:

at what resolution you do encode?

704x480 or 352x480?

704 x 480

I encode at 704 x 480

2250 is very very low for 704x480!
You should stay minimum at 3000kbit at max settings

To me it seems you do something wrong in your calculation as an audio track as AC3 or mp2 in case of a 120min movie does take almost 100MB, maybe a bit over.
So I do think you did not subtract well in the final size calculation the audio size???? Just a thought, .... to me that happened i.e. 2 Days ago at 3am in the night :wink:

Thats the thing I dont know How to do the math, from kindergarden to after highschool I did not pass 1 math exam !!
I SUCK AT MATH !!
No matter what I do I cant Understand the CCE calculation guides
I LOVE johnnys "QCCE" BUT its alil off
With minimum bitrate set to 64 kbps & max bitrate set to 3000 &
a target size set for 1380 mb gets me a 1.47 gb MPV file & for a
target size set for 1200 mb I get a target size of 1.67 gb WTF ? :cry:
QUALITY CHARESTERISTIC is set to 14
:cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:

ok.

1 DVD5-R got 4482 MB, now we do subtract the muxing overheat of 180mb = 4300 MB!

That means you're capable to put 4300 MBs to that Media.
Give it maybe another safe margin by 100MBs for complex still menues=4200 MBs.

Now as you want to burn 3 Movies on that DVD5-R you devide it by 3:

=1400 MBs for each movie if you do a prediction on each movie!

Next is you do encode your audio to 48khz AC3 or mp2. Maybe the movie of that one movie results in 100 MB. This would mean:
1400-100= 1333MB

So these 1300 MBs should be the wanted endsize for the prediction on that movie.


But you should do predict all three movies as ONE!
Generating an avs script where these Movies will be added to one frameserved stream.

take the size of all ready encoded audiotracks and do subtract that size from 4200. Now i.e. 3900 MBs would be the result. This value should be the needed Finalsize for prediction. Do a prediction on that avs WITHOUT encode afterwards option.

If the prediction would result in Q 25, therefore you do encode all these 3 movies separately at Q 25 and all that data should fit to that one DVD5-R.

I don't have 3 movies yet lol jus the 1 (DVD ON HD)
my mp2 audio is 110 mb so end size for Johnnys qcce is 1323 mb BUT ?
Does Johhny QCCE ask for target size without audio or with ?
Im confused, I assumed it wanted a targetsize without the audio.
Have u ever used johhnys toy ? if u have isnt it off alwayz?

Without audio, as Qcce can not assume what bitrate the audio gots

All I'm sayin is johnnys toy is really messed up I set targetsize for 1380 mb lastnight & the size that cameout was 1.47 gb WHY ?
WHAT DO I HAVE TO LOWER IN QCCE to get a lower filesize
(besides the target size what else can I lower or raise or whatever) :cry:

Hey touchy,
You don't need to get so mad :evil:
Just remember that jonny gave us his proggy for testing a few days ago.
We all want to predict faster and better but we need to be patient as this is a trial and error process.
If you could do your math you could try Incredible's Slicer :cut: routine.
In fact I think that both Inc & Jonny are working to integrate Slicer into qcce.
So give it some more testing while you/we wait for it to be 100%.
As always post your results so that jonny can improve.
Cheers

The problem is: If someone not get his things DIRECTLY to work, its called that these things are messed up. But there's not only the program, there's also the user (no offense but in 80% of these cases, mad users should think about it, no matter what appl. or what workout).

Do you think I was that good at mathematics in shool :lol: Never!
Its just a thing of patience, to get INTO things and to read things carefully like that ping-pong-Thread where everything is explained.

Jonny did a good job! Until now I did some DVD5-Rs using Qcce and they did fit very well, exept one where ca. 50 MBs where over the final size, so what? Using Rejig or ShrinkDVD did fix that one also fast and seen the Job as a whole totally its much faster compared to TmpgEnc.

So I agree with rds_correia.

Inc.

Hey Incredible ...
I wont say anythin cuz u bin goin outta your way ta help me lately :P
But last night I set target size to 1000 mb (in QCCE) & THIS MORNIN THE FINAL SIZE WAS 1.47 GB :cry:
Thats the shit I'm talkin about !!

So u tellin me that I should take the overly large sized files & when I get 3 movies to jus basicly use "Dvd shrink" ta shrink the size ?
But

(1) wont that reduce quality
(I found Shrink DVD has the worst quality of all the shrinkers)
(Only good thing about it is the authoring bit) :wink:

(2) Wont "Dvd Shrink rewrite the files but without the K-VCD Notch Matrix?

I hope it don't rewrite files with the normal mpg matrix ????

Untouchable, did you tried at least ONCE the (trust me) very simple method described by VMESQUTA and that I resumed to you in my previous post in this thread ?

It needs only 3 or 4 samples and gives perfect results ! Why don't you tried that if you can't manage to use an external tool ?

Well I will keep helping you as I did before but I do not just eat everything someone says, ya know? :P

Depends, if you won't go under 95% you won't recognise. But that was in my case of 50 MBs over a wanted filesize of a DVD5-R media size!

The "worst" statement I can't duplicate, but thats not the subject now ... well shrink does it JOB very well and in case of not going under 90% in already very compressed streams its a nice choice also cause of acurate percentage stream compressing. And in Case of very high bitrate original DVD sources you even can go lower than 90%.
Thats not a new matrix alocation thing although its a DCT based transforming job but one of the advantages is that the vectors won't have to be recalculated for example and that also makes it very faster.

So finally if the transforming on 1300 MB KDVD movies won't go below the 95% marker, you won't recognise it.

Hi phil ... yes I gave it a shot, but am alil confused cuz i got some weird number in the calculator
I loaded the Avs file in Virtualdubmod & wrote down the # of frames
(217947) (without audio, Dunno how ta open mp2 audio with Vdub)
Divided that by 121 minutes then divided that # by 18 GOP (ntsc) then
Divided that # by 1200 mb & I got a messed up # ... (0.0833895)

I have no idea if i did it write or wrong or if i need ta open the mp2 audio file in vdub to get the correct # of frames or even what ta do with that # the calculator gave me

Frame is an other word for 'picture' or 'image' and so is related only to video.

Your error is there. You don't have to divide the number you obtained (what you called "that #") by the size (1200 MB). You have to divide 1200 by "that #" !
In other words, the number you are looking for is the invert of the one you obtained. The invert of 0.0833895 is 1/0.0833895 = 11.99.
That is the size in MB that your sample must do after encoding.

Still alil confused my friend, do I need ta open the audio (mp2 file) in Vdub to get the correct # of frames of is the avs script enought by it'self

Again, no ! Frames are not related to audio.
The number of frame is the number of images in your video !

OK so now I understand all that u said, But I tryed readin the rest of vmesqita's guide ... It gave me a link to a kwag samplerscript which was made for the avisynth 2.08 s now I'm lost again.

My calculated samplesize came out to (# 11.08 )
But what am I supposed to do with this sample #?
I'm not too sure what I'm Supposed to do with this sample #
Am I supposed ta load the script into cce & mess wit the Q till i get a sample sized 11.08mb or do i have to change cce settings like
min bitrate from 300 to 64 & max bitrate from 5000 to 3000 & then mess with the Q ?

Man somethin is wrong I have to raise Q (IN CCE) to like 120 just to get a sample 16 mb big & its still too big :cry:
HEEEEELP :cry:

No, just vary the QFactor only!
Maybe then it doesn't fit with good quality... It can happen. But looks like you're predicting for just 1 movie, right? Try doing for the three at the same time.

All you have to do is to take the script that you plan to use for the encoding and add the line :
(18 is the length of the GOP, change it if you use a GOP that is different).

Then you launch the process on this script; At the end the size of the video must be the one you are looking for (11.08 ). If not, you change the Q only, as told by VMesquita.

When you have find the correct CQ, you just have to remove the line "sampler", and you can do your final encoding.

Thing is vmesquita ... I only have a 40 gig harddrive with about 10 gbs to spare, I dont have enough room on it ta hold 3 movies b4 converting to K-DVD