Using the same source to compare results (HDTV)
 

Hello,

Karl and i just had the same idea:

Why don't we use a source available to all users and make our comparisons with this source.
Then all source related problems will be solved and we will be able to compare our results.

I would suggest to take HDTV sources as these have the best quality available at the moment.

So i suggest the following sources from heise ftp server:

Heise ftp server (mpg files)

crawford.mpg (109MB) and emotion.mpg (36 MB) seem to be good enough for our tests and show enough details where encoders will fail :-)

Feel free to suggest other sources :!:

What do you think :?:

Krassi

EDIT: Here are some images from these two sources:
crawford1
crawford2
emotion1
emotion2

Almost done downloading "emotion.mpg" :cool:

-kwag

Ok, lets do our Tests on Emotion.mpeg.
(does it also contain dark parts like the crawford sample?? which sould be importand)

We also could determine the final resolution as 704x480 @ 23.976 fps ??
Any other things to determine?

Let's do 720x480 (Full D-1, to force the encoder), and the same frame rate as the source.
"emotion.mpg" is 29.97fps.

-kwag

720x480 @ 29.976

means interlaced!!! OH no! We know that interlaced sources do need much more bitrate to come out well!! So a 29.976 Sample wouldn't be a good choice to see the encoders capabilities :!:

Why don't you Kwag offer just a small sliced sample from a movie of your own at 23,976 720x480 ?? Sampler(samples=x, length=48 ) used for example??
(Just some scenes with 2 Sec length each)

Would your traffic allow that?

;-) Inc.

True. But that's exactly what we want to stress, and push the encoder to see what it can do.

What can it do :?:
Well, look 8O

KDVD image:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/archives/i.../2004/02/8.png

KDVD encoded sample:
http://www.kvcd.net/ffvfw/emotion.m2v


The original PNG image is over 3MB, so I didn't upload it :!:

-kwag

Hi Inc,

With all the screenshots and mpeg samples, we're going to have problems with monthly bandwidth very soon.
I'm about to decide on a file sharing system, for the purpose of distributing samples and screenshots (No warez, of course :!: ) so that we all can share the load, instead of depending on the main servers at KVCD.Net.
The best bet right now seems to be "Bit Torrent" protocol, so that each person can download, and at the same time, help with the file distribution. The more people run the program, the more bandwidth is distributed.
I'll probably set this up pretty soon.

-kwag

Also we should mention the endfilesize, the used quantizers, BCR Bitrate and of course a snapshop of the bitrateviewer FULL window, as it contains the curve (to see which user does got non-linear problems), the min max avg bitrates and q rates and ... much more of the movie specs.

:wink:

We should create a text template which has to be filled out, ok sounds complex, but only pictures do not help developing as noone can assume the individual settings :)

You did upload your png and linked as IMG in your last post, ok in my office I got a 2.3Mbit flatrate, but according to traffic .... well :wink:

Hi guys,
I don't seam to follow you right now :oops:
Are we going for the emotion.mpg or are we still looking for a different approach.
Please post what source we'll be using as soon as possible.
I already downloaded emotion.mpg anyway and I'm ready for action :)
C ya tonite

Karl,

I also recommend Bittorrent for this purpose. It's fast and made exactly for that. :wink:

Hmmm I don't know anything about BitTorrent, but Direct Connect, is a good program too for this purpose.

It works with hubs, and we could set up a KVCD hub, which is password protected, and only the users of this site can join the hub. It's actually a very simple, yet fast program. :wink:

Hi jellygoose,

Right now, Bit Torrent is probably the most robust protocol on the net. The way it works, is different to other file sharing protocols. The way it works, is that only the files you have downloaded, are available to others. For example, if you start downloading our kvcd compatibility image file, you simultaneously start uploading parts of the same file, and you can't avoid that. That's why you contribute to the load balancing on the network. Also, the protocol has automatic resume features, and also downloads form many simultaneous users.
It's far more efficient that Kazaa(FastTrak), E-Mule (E-donkey), DC++, WinMX, You name it. I've tried them all :D
Currently, the most interesting OF ALL, is M.U.T.E., which is ANONYMOUS (can't track IP addresses :rotf: ), but it's still in early stages, and doesn't do auto resume or download from many simultaneous (swarm downloads) users.
But I'm keeping an eye on that one, VERY seriously ;)
:arrow: http://mute-net.sourceforge.net/

As a matter of fact, if you try M.U.T.E. right now, and search for "kvcd", you should see the only file I'm sharing, which is "kvcd-compat-v2.nrg" :)
Give it a try ;)

And here's the link for probably the best Bit Current client available at this moment:
http://www.lanspirit.com/bss/bsrc3.exe

-kwag

Agree to most.
But maybe we should just try to get the best quality in the smallest file size :!:
This way we can concentrate on parameter tweaking, to get the most for the least space :)
Already we've found how to make perfectly useable KDVDs with this encoder, so now it's a matter of refinements.
I still hope the developer will eventually set the MIN and MAX bitrate constraints :roll:
With that, we can then apply it to high resolution KVCD encodes.
Right now, I think we're limited to probably no more that 480x480(576), because of high bitrate peaks.

-kwag

Kwag...

How hard is it to set up on a 56k dialup (or would that cause a certain death ?? )

Sharing band-width is ok by me :P but I don't want to hurt anyone if 56k
dial-up is gonna impact this idea. I like it though :P

I have a firewall installed, Sygate Personal Firewall v5.5 working
rather nicely - - I'm happy :P

Note, link to app below is dead.
* http://www.lanspirit.com/bss/bsrc3.exe

-vhelp

Not hard at all :) Not at all, because you can actually be sending one block (one segment of data), while the person receiving is actualy receiving, for example 5 other parts, from other people, simultaneously.
So you're actually helping the bandwidth.
The bandwidth is cumulative. So say someone is receiving 5 parts from 5 people at 56Kbps, he's actually receiving a total speed of 56Kbps * 5 :D If you use Bit Torrent, you must open ports 6881 to 6999 fot incoming TCP connections. That's all. :oops:
Yep, site is down.
It was up this afternoon.
Well, you can really use ANY of the many Bit Torrent clients.
Here are a few:
http://pingpong-abc.sourceforge.net/download.html
http://www.bt.degreez.net/
http://bitconjurer.org/BitTorrent/

But really the best one with the best user interface is BitSpirit, so you might want to check the site later.

-kwag

Hi,

i've been offline yesterday, thanks for your input.

I would recommend using 720x480 @original framerate. An interlaced source is better because we will stress the encoder even more and can also compare our deinterlacing-scripts.

emotion.mpg is great, there are many details (e.g. the flag in the middle of the central station).

@inc:
Good idea to define the "parameters", i suggest targeting for a KVCD, KDVD and KDVD (2 films on one DVD).

Just my 2 cents on filesharing:
Don't like it much, but M.U.T.E could be a beginning :D
And i would like to save Karl's bandwith :spam: , nevertheless the new provider doesn't seem to have the same problems as the old one.

I still can't agree to make tests on 29.976 interlaced material (IMHO)!! Cause once you find perfect settings for that, you never know how that setting will behave on progressive material which is the material most (95%) used in here as many user already in case of VIDEO NTSC material first di perform sharfis_brain 30ito24p avs script.

Interlaced encoding:

- You need the Notch in alternate scan ordered version! (No problem I can give it to you but.....)
- Even you use the alternate notch, it won't be supported right by the encoder as you EVERY time see that the bitrateviewer reports in the yellow window right below a ZIG-ZAG scan is used by that encoder.
- AND we also still got that 4:2:0 chroma upsampling issue in red parts of interlaced 4:2:0 encodings.

Sorry friends but you go one step further although the progressive step (which is the only supported one by that ffvfw mpeg2 codec) isn't full tested now.

At least my friends lets perform on that emotion.mpg the "30ito24p" function and the Fielddeinterlace(full=false) but that also won't make sense as we should use a clear not manipulated 23.976 FPS and therefore progressive material.

:!: :wink:

Inc

@inc:Yes, that's right.
Till now i haven't seen any non-interlaced HDTV samples, only @30 fps. Saw somewhere that this is standard HDTV, but i don't know if this is true.
Feel free to suggest another one :D
First-time i hear about the alternate Notch 8O

BTW: I'm planning to make some captures in HDTV as soon as i have a new capture card :wink:

I used to think that, but some research showed me that the annoying interlacing is not over yet:

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/hdtv1.htm
http://www.digitalconnection.com/faq/hdtv_6.asp

Nice links, vmesquita :D

Still searching for a non-interlaced source, but even the european Euro1080 transmits interlaced:
We could define two "common" sources, one which is interlaced, another one which is not. It would be best if these sources are even from the same origin and show the same movie.

What about short VOB trailers like DTS or DD trailers?

Nice Idea but they do not contain a variety of calm/complex/light/dark scenes.


The best would be to load a m2v 23.976 from a dvd source (why HDTV?) into "mpeg2schnitt" ( http://mdienert.winnt.de/Mpeg2Schnitt06g.zip ) means "mpeg2cut".
I think that appl. is very useful to cut m2v's (demuxed vobs) and therefore to slice a movie into useful parts with a total length of ca. 2mins, which would give us a perfect "encoding-testing-object" :wink:

If I have the time tonight, I will do such a sliced 2min. sample on the movie "Titanic" as it gots that exactly mentioned variety of scenes as I mentioned above .... and " complex water"-scenes and also "dark underwater scenes"!!! Very useful as such scenes are addicted according to bitrate-peaks and bitrate-lows!

So I will (If I got the time) create a new free Arcor.de account for approx. 1 or two days which schould be able - within these 2 days according to traffic - to handle such a sample-size.

Maybe a pice of a SuperBit DVD :idea:

-kwag

Are they better than "normal" DVD's? Do you have one :?:

I've found some HDTV progressives here:
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/win...tShowcase.aspx
The problem is that they are encoded in WM9 :(
Still searching for other sources...

Superbit DVD have only the movie and no more than 2 audio streams (original in 5.1 or DTS - and local language in 2ch). That give more space to the movie and it is generally encoded at an avg bitrate near 8000.
That is theorically better than the regular version of the same movie where there are a lot of bonus.

But some superbit are big supersh!t (the master used was so bad that the benifit of bitrate does not help !)

That's right :lol:
I do have one SiperBit DVD. I'll take a look at it, and see if there's a small clip with mixed action and details, and also I'll look for a clean part.
I'll give that a look in the next few hours, and I'll post here.
We're DEFINITELY going to have to put this on BitTorrent, to distribute the load :!:
Probably I'll post the VOB in the site, PM a couple of users running BitTorrent clients, and then post the ".torrent " file, which contains the meta information so everyone can download it.

-kwag

But, are you all aware that the "emotion.mpg" is interlaced, and the sample I encoded with ffvfw,is interlaced, using KVCD's matrix :?: :?: :roll:

-kwag

I always have my doubts about that, because no matter what the scan order is, the frequency domain for each part (block) of a quantization matrix, is always the same :!:
It doesn't matter how you scan a matrix. The frequency spectrum for each block will always be the same.
I believe that is an encoder dependant issue, and as seen with ffvfw and KVCD's matrix, it works just as well on progressive or interlaced material.

-kwag

Sorry, but I had a busy day :x
So not today :!:

-kwag

About emotion.mpg ...

I did a few tests w/ this source (big resolution, and more time to process) 8O
this might impeed or slow down our debuggin process. But still, I did encode
it w/ both ffvfw and TMPG. My conclusions were thus:
* TMPG did a better job.
.
.
It could be because I am using another version of ffvfw, however.
I did not like the final output of ffvfw. I encoded emotion.mpg w/ the same
paramters.
.
.
But, imo, the source was good quality.


@ incredible..

wait.. I would hold off on such complex scenes as those that
you are indicating. Why ? ..because we're all still debuggin this
ffvfw out and the worse thing we all can do is "pit" it up again the
worst case scene, when we really should be getting it working right
with easy scenes. Then, we take the harder steps higher on complex
scenes. This way, we are not waisting so much energy on difficult
scenes in the beginning. IMO, I would not recommend starting off w/
really complex scenes. First get the easier scenes encoding right,
because it's easier to debug ffvfw on these.. and the process would
probably go that much quicker :wink:

Also, mpeg2schnitt (or variant) was posted by kwag some time ago
when we were researching VOB encoding issues (I can't remember the exact
issues :roll: ) I believe it was back in July/2003, when we were trying
to figure out TMPG's [x] Force picture type setting to use a
bitrate based off the Average bitrate that vdubMOD was given us as an
average, and plugging that in to TMPG. If kwag remembers that fun.
.
.
Plus, that tool you mentioned is in German 8O. There is an MPEG2Cut v1.15
out. Do a search for MPEG2Cut-1.15.rar. It's based off dvd2avi
I believe.. MPEG2Cut by Jackei/Symbiose/Dark Avenger

http://www.digitalfaq.com/archives/i...2004/02/31.jpg
** Main Site: http://www.digital-digest.com/dvd/do.../mpeg2cut.html
* --> http://www.digital-digest.net/downlo...G2Cut-1.15.rar
* --> http://www.digital-digest.net/downlo...G2Cut-1.15.rar
* --> http://mitglied.lycos.de/darkav/down...ource-1.15.rar
* --> SOURCE: http://mitglied.lycos.de/darkav/down...ource-1.15.rar
***** Forum: http://mitglied.lycos.de/darkav/
.
.
* --> you can get RocketJet4's mod of above tool on his main page
* --> http://www.geocities.com/rocketjet4/
* --> Tool: http://www.geocities.com/rocketjet4/...203__ALPHA.zip - 04Feb2004
***** EzBoard: http://pub31.ezboard.com/fdarkavengerssiteforumfrm1



Here's Suggestion #1

Find a DVD source (we all have :wink: ) and, as a consortium, we all
agree (have concensus) on various scenes, and (ie, easy/mid/hard) and
cut those three out, and VOB them as one source, then U/L them. Now..
If there is a (c) :wink: issue w/ this, then we can still perform this
w/out (c) problems. This is something we could post in a sticky thread
here, the receipee, and only then, it's up to the individual to obtain the
exact same dup of our madness to debug ffvfw (or any other codec or
encoder out there) using the example below as a bases.. though you can
mod'fy it if need by.:

* DVD Title
* Chapters to cut from
* exact spots
* Merge those together
...actually, you don't have to merge them. Just make sure that the
...VOBs are in numerical order, and when you dvd2avi it to a .d2v source,
...it will segment them together - vualla!! Less work for the dummies
...out there wanting to take part :P


Here's Suggestion #2

Regarding above, we could all contribute to a "POOL" of cut-scenes that we all
could take part in. Our results could be logged somewhere's or someone could
tally the results of those that post (offline at their leasure) :wink:
Always good ta have someone take notes :wink:


-vhelp
sfilters: picture; images; pics;

.
.
and then,
.
.

@ Kwag..

Is this the same thing ??

I was doing some searching (for everyone :wink: ) and came up w/ this one
for BT ? :

* http://www.lanspirit.com/forum/index...&showtopic=431
* Fefered to as "BitSpirit" --> http://mitglied.lycos.de/tuxman666/bitspirit.htm

* D/L File: http://mitglied.lycos.de/tuxman666/bssfinal2.exe

???
-vhelp

Hi vhelp,

The bittorrent protocol, and clients (which change on a daily basis) :lol: just get better every day :!:

Go and get this:
http://www.torrentstorm.com/

-kwag

I just got back from a short vacation :D and finally received my second DVB capture card (Skystar 2). I've just recorded some samples from Euro1808 and the transmissions where great (suberb quality). Let me sort out some samples, i will post some links to screenshots then and we could then (maybe :D ) agree to use one of these samples.

My power supply on this machine gave up with some smoke signals after one hour of capture :evil:

So with these two links
Basketball, 1.4 MB :wink:
Eau Rouge

you can see some screenshots of my samples.

I have recorded some short samples of a concert in a church and some sport scenes (where the images above are from).

The only problem is my bandwith, so we have to go the filesharing-way :cry:

I will post some other samples if you are interested.

Here are the infos from bitrate viewer:

Hi Krassi, welcome home again,

I see that the interlacing of your basketball.jpg is well damaged!
A typical output if someone encodes interlaced conted using to low bitrate, as interlacing needs much mor avg bitrate.

Does make me wondering as BRV tells you "interlaced/DCT Fieldtype" but ZigZag used :!: