I'm saying that a country that has lost millions of soldiers in a war that was provoked by many countries in europe, and which had a government that fled, and left its people alone, and went to exile before the war was over, and in which people have just started to learn the basic ideals of democracy, and so decided to build up a new government, under a new democratic system, shouldn't be left alone, by the big and powerful nations like america, the role model of democracy. Such a nation shouldn't be exploited and punished because this gives new extremely terrible and cruel leaders like Hitler the chance to start its propaghanda machine against democracy.
I'm not saying that the US or any other country than Germany itself caused WW2, because this would just be ridiculous. I'm just saying that a new formed democracy is very very unstable towards any crisises, and so every democratic country should help to stabalize it. that's what the USA did after WW2, because they have learned from the past. Economy was build up again by the help of the American Government to stabalize democracy in Germany.

much has already been discussed here. yet, i must put up my ponderings on the following points.

1. the US did not wait for the UN's decision before starting the war - but, when a few US POW's were shown on the iraqi / al-jazeera tv, they reminded the world of the geneva convention.

2. does any country has the moral / legal right to invade another country & formaly declare to oust a government ?

3. the US were in hot / cold war with russia & other countries behind the iron curtain for very long - one of the points being the communists oppress the opposition & denies the right to free media & speech. but now, the US is oppressing the media and any news that goes against the US interest. they are even asking different countries to oppress anti-US news in their media. why ?

4. iraq & north korea are terrorist countries. but what about israel ? why no word about them ?

1. the US did not wait for the UN's decision before starting the war - but, when a few US POW's were shown on the iraqi / al-jazeera tv, they reminded the world of the geneva convention.

In fact, the Geneva convention states that no POW can be paraded in a way which can put his life in jeporday, or can humiliate him. Both the US/UK and IRAQ have violated this by showing POWs on tv and in the Newspapers. The US in no way can go on about international law. Look at their discraseful actions against suspected terrorists at Camp XRay (in Cuba i think?). The US says the people were exempt from international law because they were terrorists (in fact - a huge number were wrongly suspected) and because Cuba doesn't accept the Geneva Convention.

I have a question of my own though - when America/UK forces attempt to assasinate Saddam or any of his Government Ministers is this not considered a Murderous act, keeping in mind that no international body considers this war to be 'lawful'.

Jim[/i]

8O
tons of wise in this "question of my own though " posted from jamesp:

" have a question of my own though - when America/UK forces attempt to assasinate Saddam or any of his Government Ministers is this not considered a Murderous act, keeping in mind that no international body considers this war to be 'lawful'."

:!:

Jeez, what's up with you people. Have you totally lost your minds. Making Saddam into some kind of saint. That same Saddam who invaded Iran and lost, he invaded Kuwait and lost, he gassed and killed >5000 kurds for no reason at all and you all only have praise for him. DON'T MAKE HIM INTO A HERO! I think that you anti-war folks is just as bad. I can't believe the narrowmindedness in this thread. I truly feel sorry for you. Enough from me. You lot makes me too sad inside.

(Think about this, the few perhaps 500 civilians who has lost their lives in this war would be nothing compared to the many Saddam would have killed of his own people who might have had a different opinion than him!)

P.S. I don't like Bush either. I think he's a poilitical disaster. Buyt I do wholeheartedly support this war agains Saddams regime.

P.P.S. The U.N. resolution 1441 does infact giving Iraq an ultimatum. Read it and stop wining about that U.S.A. and England hadn't mandate when they infact did.

hey freinds,

in this situation I believe we should do what ever is necessary

to rid the world of people such as saddam hussein, in my opinion,

because if not, they willl only think they can get away with a lil' more and

then lil' more.. he has starved his people to death, poisened them, has

had women raped in the streets, killing people for saying something

against him (a bit childish..) and for what?... in my opinion he is/was

a truly sick man though inteligent enough to keep it up all these years..

if you dont agree, that is fine, but hear this: if you were out on the streets

of iraq being afraid to speak and knowing you could be killed any moment

for pleasure of sadam and knowing of things he is capable of-you would

think again.. and custom may be custom and i know it is different there,

but murder of innocence cannot be tolerated, and niehter should he.

lata :)

http://www.madblast.com/view.cfm?typ...h&display=2183

http://www.madblast.com/view.cfm?typ...sh&display=808

Follow those Links :lol:

I'm ROTFLMAO and peeing on my pants :mrgreen: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

dood,,
that'd be another Forum all together....
and somewhere in the forum rules it states that
there's to be no WaterSports Forum.


:P

ztr

Hahaha!! Thats tha stuff! :wink:

PIMPLMAO (peeing in my pants laughing my ass off!) :lol:

war is over?

please inform the news.

what is true,what is lie?
any strange bomb found?
sadan is dead?
the future of Irak...have future?
the people from this nation.
the opinion from people of others nations.
happy ending?
who win?
who loose?
how much money was needed?
Irak have to pay with petrol for this?
colonise Irak nation(and people) ?
George Bush is happy? (hairstyle again?) :lol:
and "Poney" Blair? :roll:
what more?

please, post the news
:!:

Jorel,

I think we should let this thread finish now to be honest. What happened cannot be changed, and at least Saddam is no more. Lets leave KVCD to Video etc from now on .....

Jim

jamesp, :wink:

i only want some news cos

i don't see tv or papers no more.

i stay all the time in forum or with the pc encoding kvcds :!:

:lol:

:bugeyes:

:lol: :lol:
:mrgreen:

Seriously, I think you should take a rest for a while. If you're too busy hanging around the forum to even watch the news or read the days newspaper, you're really close to crossing the red line :!:

What would that be :?: "The Twilight Zone" :mrgreen:
Ta ra ra ra, Ta ra ra ra ..... :lol:

-kwag

Don't we all know what happened to Jobe in "The Lawnmower Man" :lol:

Or "Tron" :lol:

Nope. Making the original objective of the war pointless.

Not sure... :?

It's now being slowly rebuilt, apparently.

Depends on what you class as "happy"...the people of Iraq have been liberated from Saddam, but at a heavy cost.

America.

Iraq.

Not quite sure offhand, but enough to prove any claims that there is not enough money to improve the world's health/education system entirely wrong.

Yep, Iraq's oil supply will now be used to feed America's requirements.

Maybe eventually.

Unfortunately yes, he went and got his oil, the fact that he had to destroy a much more defenceless nation is of course less important. :x

Probably he's happy too. :x :x


Overall, Iraq was pointlessly crushed. Saddam may be dead, but it was in my opinion not worth the destruction it caused.

PS: If anyone was hoping not to have any more discussion on this, I'm sorry, :? ...was just trying to answer jorel's questions..

Pyro where you not in the movie X-Men :?: :lol:

....with an anti-US spin- nice! :twisted:

pyro...
"...was just trying to answer jorel's questions.."
wow
:wink:
thanks "pyrofire" friend for "hot" news.
now i know a little more coming from you, the news out of my country.
:D

Boulder...
"...too busy hanging around the forum to even watch the news or read the days newspaper,..."
here is better my friend,
the news really bore me. i only see more bad news than good news
or someone thinking in the better way to take our money,don't?
i can't stand ...everyday is....
"one kill other","bang" here,"kaboom" there and tons:
bla,bla,bla,bla,bla....and more lies. :roll:

here i (we )have friends and the brain is working,nobody try
to put bad news in your (our) head.
see here...people like you.... happy, speak the true with friendship :!:

Kwag...
"Or "Tron"" :lol:
you're a joker
:hihi:

friendalunit...
"....with an anti-US spin- nice!"
you have a special place here in our hearts my friend,
any government can't take our feelings for you,
the news or government fingers can't do it!
:wink:

LOL :lol: Wish I was, that "manipulation" Pyro did with fire was pretty cool. :D :D

It was mostly unintentional. :wink:

Yes

No, but you try searching an area as big as Iraq. If you think it's easy then think again and use common sense (smirk, pyro!)

Hopefully, but I doubt it!

A much better future now.

What nation? Iraq? Some are grateful (most) some are not.

Dunno!

For the Iraqi people, definately!

Iraqi people

Saddam and his followers.

Who cares when it's in a good cause!

Sure, because Saddam has run away with all the money. It's only fair, and NOTHING is for free!

Iraqi stays put, and see the news, Iraqi's controls the country soon again!

Who cares if they are happy. A country has been liberated.

I'll tell you what more. Pyro seems to be wearing blindfolds. If he honestly think that they should have found weapons by now. Iraq is big.

Now Pyro, this was another way of answering. And far better, without your "pro dictator view"! I guess you haven't heard about the mass grave outside bagdad with 15000 corpses. That is almost 10x as many as was killed in the war (of iraqi people). So... You know it was a just cause. Just because you don't like Bush or Blair doesn't mean that the cause wasn't a good one, you just can't admit it when you're wrong!

Just a few words to close this on my behalf:

You can't argue opinions.

Everyone is right and yet everyone is wrong.

sure Boulder. :wink:

Canman
don't bore yourself. :)
i can't see in your avatar but seems that you are american.

this is only my opinion and i don't want to bore you:

someone came to others house,want to kill the chief,
take his money to pay what he wants... and "pray":
...bla,bla,bla.......coca cola......bla,bla,bla....McDonalds...
bla,bla,bla...and justice for all!
justice at his own eyes? :roll:

and in his money is write:
in GOD we trust!

i'm not against americans,
i have 3 great friends that take his fathers to
my house to meet me....i have photo with his fathers
and if you want i send to your mail.
we pass a big days in my house and i love this friends.
but,i can't understand...or better,i understand the intentions
of the american government.
he wants power and money.
think, in the world have others countries that give
more dangerous problems than Irak.
why the american government don't go there? :roll:

and the worse is:
take his boys to die and kill in another country for money :!:
this i can't understand. :(

see,this is only what i think cos the news came from
americans tvs and he talks what he wants.

sorry my hard words,they are against government, not people!
:)

That thing with the "Pro-Dictator-View" was the worst thing I've ever heard here since I visited this forum for the first time sorry! :cry:
I wanna write so much more, but I'm holding back for now...
I just wanna say so much:

I'm scared of the future-life of my future-children, because the world is getting more crazy and worse with every day. And no war, for whatever reason will change this, because violence always causes violence again.
sad but true. :cry:

This was the worst thing I've heard in this forum ever.

To actually think that the war is about oil to me just seems absolutely absurd. It's about stopping terrorism, period. Besides the ~3000 lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001- the attacks cost NYC up to $95 billion and the us economy has taken a trillion dollar hit. Saddam's weapons of mass destruction and terrorism funding was the reason for the war- not the stupid oil- wake up!

http://www.digitalfaq.com/archives/error.gif

@rendalunit - September 11 was horrible - period. No one can deny that.

BUT.....

I think you've been watching too much Fox or CNN. Name me one Iraqi who has been proven to have anything to do with 9-11. Name me one Iraqi official who was proven to either have a link to the event, or who is proven to have financed or housed any member of the terrorist group?


..Any luck


...No - because no one can. I feel sorry for you in America, because your news coverage is so appalingly biased. I get CCN in england and its almost painful to watch. I feel lucky to live in a country where our main tv channel (BBC) is not based on profits and ratings and does its best to portray a balanced view.

I think, that you are very influenced by the one-sided US Media. I watched MSNBC News and I can imagine, if somebody's watching that crap all the time, then he might believe the lies, they are telling.

And as you can see right now, no weapons were found, no terrorists camps were found in Iraq.Why? Because there is no terrorists and weapons of mass destruction there. But I can tell what you are going to find in Iraq soon. You're gonna find some of Dick Cheney's Halliburton workers, who will take the oil.

The U.S. Government is just a bunch of rich liars, controlled by the oil industry. Guess who spondored George W. Bush's election campaign??? Texaco, Chevron, Exxon, etc. Now the US Government has to pay back.

Enron is also a good example. The Bush Family and the Family of the former Enron Boss Kenneth Lay had a good contact with each other, but when the Enron scandal came up Bush called him a bad man.

There are so much other example's, that can proof what this war war really about...

Man, I didn't mean to offend anyone :(...but just to clear a few things up:
1. I agree that Saddam Hussein is an evil dictator that had to be stopped.
2. I agree that September 11th was a terrible thing to happen.
3. Being anti-war does not make me pro-dictator.
4. It is my opinion that the war in Iraq is for oil.
5. It is my opinion that there are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.
6. No, I do not like Blair or Bush, and no I do not like the American government. I also believe Saddam could have been stopped by more peaceful means. No, I do not approve of attacking a much more defenceless country while leaving more dangerous situations untouched.

If people have problems with these views, I won't post on this subject again.

I didn't say that IRAQ had anything to do with 9/11, didn't mean to imply it and haven't heard any reports about that- it just seems that some people forgot that it ever happened.

Why because I believe that the war on Iraq began because we felt that they were a threat to our national security? I think that based on what we have found in Iraq so far; mass grave sites, suicide bomb belts, large caches of US dollars likely obtained from "oil for food" bribes, imprisoned children- then ends justifies the means. I will feel much better though when- not if- we find the WMD so that this war will be justified to people like you but maybe even that wouldn't be enough and maybe you think that Saddam should have been allowed to have WMD because Bush has them too- :lol: :lol:

proof huh!? Let's see it please. I can tell that your opinions arent swayed by your news source-- Al Jezeera right? LOL

I know I said I wouldn't post again but I feel I just have to respond to this...

In that case why did you feel the need to bring it up in the middle of a debate about Iraq? Two nukes were dropped on Japan by America. It was a terrible thing to happen too, but that doesn't mean it should be brought up for no reason.

And what if they're not found? Will the war still be justified to you? And wouldn't it be better if neither Saddam nor Bush had WMD? Or would that leave the US too "vulnerable"? :wink:

I mentioned the 9/11 attacks because that event has started the US' global war on terrorism campaign and Iraq was put on Bush's list of evil nations because of it's weapons of mass destruction programs. So if the attacks on Sept. 11 hadn't happened I don't think we would've gone to war with Iraq because our awareness of terrorism threats in our own land would be lower and we wouldn't have such a strong motivation to stop these threats.

Absolutely not. The Bush administration stated that we should go to war because of Iraq's wmd so IMO this is the only acceptable reason to go to war and I feel that they must find the WMD or proof that it was destroyed. However though, I do feel that the final outcome is for the best- Saddam is gone and the Iraqi people have been liberated.

Yes it would be better if WMD did not exist in the world- but that's just wishful thinking :wink:

Lastly I want to apologize to anyone I've offended with my comments- PyRoMaNiA, jamesp, Bchteam, jorel- I think i was outta line. I hear so much Bush bashing on the talk radio stations I listen to and it gets really old. People are quick to dismiss the possibility that Iraq has hidden WMD in its vast land or smuggled it out to Syria or Iran. I'm taking their word for the reason we went to war in the first place for now but if time goes by and nothing is found I will admit that this war was about securing oil supplies in the middle-east and that would be sad because I don't believe in killing for oil.

Sorry again- now I'm going to keep my mouth shut on this topic :oops: :wink:

@rendalunit

MAN - Don't apologise! :oops:

Just remember, at the end of the day we're all small people who in the grand scheme of things don't have a real say - and we're all also in this forum for one reason - KVCD :drink:

You never offended me - i just don't agree with the war and you do. Remember, just because because i was anti war doesn't mean i'm anti american, anti british or anti you. We live in a democracy - we've all got a right for our views!

Keep well mate, and don't be afraid to speak your mind!

Jim

see?
:wink:

friend jamesp wrote:
"You never offended me"...
"i was anti war doesn't mean i'm anti american, anti british or anti you. We live in a democracy - we've all got a right for our views"
"Keep well mate, and don't be afraid to speak your mind"

"friendalunit" wrote;
"Lastly I want to apologize to anyone I've offended with my comments- PyRoMaNiA, jamesp, Bchteam, jorel- I think i was outta line."

for this reason i did this thread here without fear.
i never find one administrator like Kwag and forum like this.
here, the people are wise and friendly and i
or another member never had intentions to hurt.
your wise my friends is the best with your friendship.

friendalunit you never need to apologize with me my dear.
i love this place and people and
you are special for this forum and for me :!:

@ all
thanks for friendship, education, wise and knowledge.
you are the best.
do you feel the same? :wink:
:insight:

That's something we agree on :D Cheers! :drink:

-ren

The German Media Network ZDF reported:

Sorry for my bad translation, but I think Wolfowitz confirmed what most of us already knew.

here's one article about that http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?o...11775EA583A990

"The Vice Secretary of defense Paul Wolfowitz has conceded, that the Question of Iraqi Weapons of mass destruction was only used for politic reasons." - until i read the Vanity Fair article, I will assume this is a mis-quote by ZDF.

ren

This makes feel sick! If this is true, what about all the shit America (and the UK - i know!) said about France and Germany and their UN Votes. Can our leaders be tried under international law?