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05-12-2010, 11:11 PM
Harry Harry is offline
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This thread is a Consolidation of the last 3 posts in the "Are My Old DVD Archives Safe? " thread:
http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/show...vd-2154p2.html

Based on recommendations in that thread I purchased two "refurbished" external Pioneer DVD burners from Geeks.com
(DVR - X162Q-R Pioneer DVR-X162Q 20x DVD+/-RW DL USB 2.0)

I have since Reburned almost 300 DVDs from my collection on archive quality DVD -/+R media from both Verbatim & Taiyo Yuden.

I use ImgBurn software.

At 8x burn speeds I have noticed strange artifacts on the burned DVDs from both of these burners, though one burner seems to produce slightly more dramaticly visible "artifacts" than the second burner, under the same conditions.


Using the visual comparison data from "DVD Burning & Media Quality Concepts Visual Test"
http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/media/dvd-tests.htm
what I'm seeing is not as dramatic as image #2 and more pronounced than image #4.
Typically, the slightly darker purplish "ring" extends from the center hub out to about an inch.
At this point there is a darker, generally incomplete "circle" or "halo" approximately 1-2 mm wide that, (depending on how you hold the disc), is clearly discernible on the north & south hemispheres, but fades, almost indistinguishably near the equators.
There may be another smaller clear (unpigmented appearing) halo effect approximately 1mm wide around this, but sometimes not.
From this point to the outer edge is a typically normal appearing burn.

Horizontal vs Vertical positioning of the burner is not a factor.

Whether the Burner is warmed up or cold (ie the 1st or 12th successive burn) is not a factor.

Reducing burn speeds from 8x to 4x to 6x seems to eliminate these "artifacts" so they are apparently speed related.

Other burners (both internal & external) do not cause these effects upon this media, regardless of the burn speed (8x or higher).

These Pioneer Burners are rated at up to 20x, though I've learned from this forum to limit my burn speeds to 8x for best accuracy.

Aside from the visual irregularities visible upon the burned discs, upon complete playback some of these DVDs have freezing then skipping spots in the video at points which may possibly corresponded to where the darker dye halo circle "artifact" is on the DVD.
But this is not consistent and I have not viewed all 300 of these reburns to determine the exact percentage of these apparent burn failures.


"Technicians" from both Geeks & Pioneer think that this is unusual.

A Pioneer tech suggested that this coud possibly be related to a "failing" laser diode?


The purpose of this entire exercise is to back-up my entire 4000+ DVD collection to archive quality media.

I do not want to jeopardize this effort using either defective media or burning hardware.


However, I dislike the RMA process (returning merchandise) unless it is absolutely necessary.

At present I am burning ALL future DVDs with these burners at 4x to assure that I am acheiving the best (most accurate) possible burns.

Although this is apparently abherrant Pioneer DVD burner behavior I can live with the slower burning speed so long as this is not indicative of a larger or greater impending failure?

QUESTIONS:
Based on my description, can anyone offer a suggestion as to what is causing these irregular burn patterns?

Is it is advisable for me to reburn AGAIN all of those DVDs that display these artifacts?

Should I simply return these burners to Geeks and not purchase anymore REFURBISHED hardware in the future?

Any professional/experienced comments/observations/recommendations as to what and why this is occurring and what more I should do about it are appreciated.

Thank you
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  #2  
05-15-2010, 01:44 AM
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Your drive is fine.
The discs are fine.

I'll expand on this answer within the next few days.

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  #3  
05-19-2010, 11:37 AM
Harry Harry is offline
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Thanks Admin for your comforting words...

I do believe that it is doubtful that the media itself is to blame as the same "problem" occurs on three different "archive quality" types: Branded Verbatim + & - R 16x (purchased from Amazon) and Value Taiyo Yuden -R 8x (purchased frome Meritline).

This media burns fine with other burners even at higher than the 8x recommeded speeds.

However If the Pioneer DVD burners are fine, why is it that these "flaws" occur at 8x speeds (or greater) per Imageburn settings & TY disc speed limitations?

I agree that it is strange that both of these refurbished burners would cause the same problem.
And aside from the obvious visible burn discrepencies there have been an alarming number of these discs (that displayed the worst of these unsightly "burn rings") that have had flawed playback at points that seem to correspond to the areas where these rings are located (depending on the length of the recorded media i.e. on a 110-120 minute recording the image freezing & skipping seems to consistently occur at from 45-50 minutes into play, on 3 different players).
Subsequent reburns with these Pioneers at 4x has eliminated this problem.
So the problem behaves like "bad dye spread or dye melting" even on these archive quality media, but only when burned at 8x (or greater) speeds on these Pioneer burners???? Very strange????

If as you say, "the drives are fine" then the only conclusions that I've been able to draw from this is that these burners spin much faster than the burn speeds I've set with the Image burn software?

And since this is happening with both of these Pioneer burners (and not with any of the other internal or external burners that I have) it appears to be a Pioneer idiosyncratic issue.

Is this a logical conclusion?

If this is the case then this condition should not be unique to me and should be replicable with other PC's under similar conditions (i.e. using either Win XP or Vista OS's and ImageBurn version 2.5 software) and I'd think that others would have already complained to Pioneer or Geeks or somebody about it prior to now???

Like I said, so long as I can somehow be assured that this is not indicative of a greater issue or impending burner failure I can live with it by halving the burn speed.
But if if these burners are possibly flawed and I need to return them then I would like to do so while still under Geeks 90 day warranty period...

Aside from dramatically lowering the Image burn speeds from 8x to 4x which appears to correct the issue, is there any other work around?

I anxiously await your "expanded response" to this query.

Thank you for your time & concern.
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  #4  
05-26-2010, 11:53 PM
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On 5/15/2010 Admin said:
Quote:
Your drive is fine.
The discs are fine.

I'll expand on this answer within the next few days.

On 5/19/2010 Harry replied:
Quote:
I anxiously await your "expanded response" to this query.

Thank you for your time & concern.
Still waiting.....

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/show...ered-1530.html
Quote:
For faster service (and a more thoroughly detailed answer), consider becoming a Premium Member.
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  #5  
06-01-2010, 06:43 PM
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What you're seeing here is most definitely a zonal burning ring, caused by the non-constant speeds used beyond 6x burning. The example image #4 found in the Visual Tests at http://www.digitalfaq.com/guides/media/dvd-tests.htm is probably a bit too light, it needs more contrast. Thanks for pointing that out.

The #2 image represents a non-ring shaped "gooey mess" (as best as I can describe it) that will not be concentric circles -- it will be somewhat blob-like in shape, although still traveling in a circular path because a disc is burned while it spins. These kinds of errors really are not seen much anymore -- this was far more common in the days of 1x-4x discs, and mostly DVD-R from cheap manufacturers that have long been out of business. It does still appear on second-grade generic-brand junk, but not as much in 2010 as 2002-2005.

The only issue I can foresee with the Pioneer is that it might need a firmware update.

If so-called "technicians" from both Geeks and Pioneer think that this is unusual (referring to zonal burning rings), then they're idiots. Or they've never burned DVDs -- or at least burned a disc and paid attention. Anybody with even mid-level knowledge of media knows about this phenomena.

If this was happening on one drive, I'd suggest an RMA. But it's highly unlikely that you have two bad drives that have the exact same issue. That's lottery-ticket type odds there.

The only possible thought I have is also equally unlikely. If you had really cold or hot discs, and then burned data to the hot/cold blanks, this could happen. But you'd have to store your blanks in a hot car or refrigerator -- and I doubt that's the case.

You could always try an RMA on just one drive, and see if a replacement acts any better.

This is very unusual.

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  #6  
06-01-2010, 11:01 PM
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All of my DVDs are stored at room temperatures (average between 66-78 degrees fahrenheit).

If these are "zonal burning rings" why is it that most of the DVDs that display the worst of these rings have corrupt areas that cause freezing & skipping in those areas?

Why do you think that this is occuring on these Pioneer burners at 8x and not on my other burners when set at 8x or max burn speeds?

Is it possible that these burners may be spinning much faster than 8x, inspite of the ImageBurn settings?

If this should be the case then do you think that a "firmware update" will correct it?

Yes, both of the "so-called "technicians" from both Geeks and Pioneer have said that they think that this is unusual. The Geek "tech" said he'd never heard of such a thing before. The Pioneer "tech" said that he'd heard of such an occurrence, but had never actually seen it, and had never heard of a Pioneer drive causing it. His suggestion was that it could be a failing laser diode and said that I should return them.
But I agree... what are the odds of both burners having the same problem???
I would more likely think that it is a software/hardware compatiblity issue...

I'm surprized that no one else has had a similar issue like this before now.

Surely I'm not the only person using PC's with Windows XP & Vista and ImageBurn and Pioneer Burners with Verbatim & TY DVD media that is experiencing such a problem???? Or am I....
Judging by the lack of suggestions/comments to this thread in this forum it appears that this is a very rare occurrence.

It is very strange indeed, and this is the first time that I've experienced it in over 4000 burns. Even on inferior TDK, Maxell, and Memorex media, with a variety of internal & external burners from HP to LG set at max burn speeds this problem never occurred.

Yet with high quality archive media, on these 2 high quality "refurbished" Pioneer burners at 8x or greater speeds (with a slight hint beginning at 6x) these burn rings consistently appear.

Very odd.

So far all of the almost 300 reburns at 4x speed on these burners have not displayed these rings, and have played without skipping or freezing.
But I'd think that I should be able to burn DVD's at 8x on these burners and still not have this occur.

I gather that This IS Very unusual & strange....

So you think that I should return one and see if the replacement behaves any different....
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  #7  
06-02-2010, 11:15 AM
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kpmedia said:

Quote:
The only issue I can foresee with the Pioneer is that it might need a firmware update.
I again called Pioneer in Long Beach, CA and spoke with a differenent tech support person (Rocky). He said that he was familiar with the conditon and reiterated that it was likely a laser diode "modulation" problem. He said that He had never heard of this occurring with the Pioneer External USB 2.0 DVD/CD Writer DVR-X162Q and said that it was very unusual to have the same problem with both burners.

He also said that at this time there are no firmware updates available for this model that could possibly correct the problem.


Like yourself, he suggested returning one or both of them back to Geeks and if the problem was not resolved with the replacement then he suggested that I send one or both directly to Pioneer for "analysis & repair."

This an extremely cumbersome and expensive process which I'd hoped to avoid by ordering the highly recommended Pioneer burners in the first place.
(The cost of return shipping to Geeks, and especially if I have to send them to Pioneer as well, could likely equal the cost of a replacement burner.)

Quote:
You could always try an RMA on just one drive, and see if a replacement acts any better.
None-the-less, I again called Geeks in CA and requested an RMA. I will return one (as you suggest) and if this problem does not occcur with the replacement then I will quickly RMA the second one, hopefully before the 90 day exchange warrenty expires.

Quote:
This is very unusual.
Yes, it evidently is.
In all honesty, I will be surprized if the replacement does not exhibit these same burning ring problems. Since it has occured on both of these existing units I'm concerned that the problem is something innate between my operating systems, the Image Burn software and this particular model of Pioneer burner.
However, since neither you or any of the fellow forum members have replied with similar experiences, this remains just conjecture on my part, based upon my limited evidence.

Quote:
If this was happening on one drive, I'd suggest an RMA. But it's highly unlikely that you have two bad drives that have the exact same issue. That's lottery-ticket type odds there.
If the Geek replacement is clean after burning several test DVD's at various speeds, then I will be pleasantly surprized as I will have evidently won this Lottery.
If that does happen, I will RMA the second drive to them as well.
However I will still be concerned at the odds of getting two initial lemons in a row, and to avoid further hassles will likely not again order this model from Pioneer, or from Geeks in the future.

I will keep this thread updated as the situation progresses.

In the meantime, if anyone out there in "Digital Faq.com land" can comment on a similar experience, I would very much appreciate hearing about it, as misery does like company.
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  #8  
06-02-2010, 08:19 PM
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Hi Harry,

I've never experienced something like this but, speaking as a general consumer, I would personally avoid refurbished hardware. I like to make sure I can trust in each link in the chain, especially when doing a project as involved as yours.

Sometimes it's worth considering used items to save a few bucks, but this doesn't sound like one of those times. You're backing up a lot of material and you've purchased top brand media to record it to. If you can afford to, invest in new burners and tighten up the chain.

Good luck!
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  #9  
06-02-2010, 09:10 PM
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The biggest reason to purchase the refurbished Pioneer drives is so you can get a NEC chipset Pioneer drive -- and not one of the Mediatek chipset units now sold. The Pioneer DVR-X162Q is supposed to be an external version of the DVR-216, which was an NEC drive. The NEC chipset drives used by Pioneer are what made Pioneer "the" name in quality DVD burners. The newer Mediatek chipset drives get a mix of reviews, although I often find bad reviews to still be related to other problems (bad media choices being the most common one).

You can't easily buy a new NEC-based Pioneer drive anymore. It's similar to the problems we face with capture cards and DVD recorders -- the best one are (sadly) no longer made. You can blame a mix of bad economy and idiot consumers for this mess. People aren't willing to pay for quality (or wouldn't know it if they saw it), and companies either quit making the products, or go under.

So I wouldn't fault a person too much for this exact buy.

In general, I find refurb items to be great -- few of them are actually "used" in any way, far less were defective. I type this on a refurbished laptop, connected to a refurbished Pioneer burner -- both have been excellent for years.

I would not avoid or slag off Geeks.com either, they're a great merchant for various computer parts, especially older items (clearance priced) and refurbs. And they do carry quite a few new items, too! It, along with Directron, are excellent "online versions" of Fry's and Microcenter stores, if you're lucky enough to have one nearby (most people do not, myself included). Don't let one odd purchase sour the experience with the whole store.

It won't be hard to avoid this model of Pioneer drive -- it's not made anymore.

It's just a strange situation. Don't fret -- we all get something like this eventually. My weird experiences always seem to come from power line noise (interference, herringbone, hum loops, FM noise, etc) -- and nobody else ever sees the same things I do.

Trade in one drive and see what happens.

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06-03-2010, 02:02 PM
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Reading Bug said:
Quote:
invest in new burners and tighten up the chain.
I am aware of the high quality reputation that Pioneer once held.
Regarding this full featured model of Pioneer USB burner I could not locate a new one so, based on the recommendations of this forum, I took a chance and ordered the refurbished ones from Geeks.

I normally avoid buying most "refurbished" items for a variety of reasons.
This does not equate to buying "used" or "rebuilt" merchandise, so long as I am either very familiar with what I am purchasing or am aware of a common standard when it comes to the term "rebuilt."

Sometimes people just return things and there is nothing actually wrong with them. The items are as good as new but are resold as "used" or "refurbished."
In such cases the second buyer gets a great deal at a fraction of the "new" price.

Unfortunetly when it comes to "refurbished" items today one seldom has an inkling as to what "refurbished" actually means... the term is very subjective and can be falsely reassuring to the uninformed.
Just exactly what is tested and to what "standard," and what is being replaced or repaired before resale... one seldom knows.
In order to avoid "a game of chance" one must know and trust the company and/or the refurbisher.
With so much impersonal communication these days that element of trust is becoming more and more to difficult obtain.

Too often with too many companies and their underpaid, inexperienced, misinformed staff, one is just as likely to receive somebody elses unfixed problem, as they are to get something that is as good as brand new.

Whether deliberate or not the old axiom regarding "used car salesmen" and "unscrupulous mechanics" still applies: "let the buyer beware."
You'd better be a good mechanic, or know someone who is who will thoroughly check that vehicle out for you before you lay down your hard earned cash, or live in a state that has No Lemon Laws in effect.

Generally speaking, electronic components either work or they don't. But sometimes one newly replaced component will strain an older component causing it to eventually fail.

I don't know Geeks from Adam, but based upon my conversations with their "tech" department, I'm so far unimpressed.
No one could or would share any details about who and how their "refurbishing" system is supposed to work, i.e. Just what components are tested, how they are tested and what is actually repaired or replaced.

In this instance, if testing merely means turning something on and seeing if it can read and burn then that may not give an accurate picture of whether there is an existing problem.

That is why I was initially hopeful that a member of this forum that owns the same model of Pioneer burner (External USB 2.0 DVD/CD Writer DVR-X162Q ) and uses ImgBurn software with Windows XP or Vista OS would see this thread and could share with me their burning experience at 8x or greater.
That way I could easily rule out whether this is an inate concern with this particular model or not?

Unfortunely, no one has come forward to share so I must endure this cumbersome process....

Here are some of the RMA details from Geeks:

Quote:
(This is not a prepaid label.)
What to expect with a Warranty Exchange (WE) return:

Merchandise returned is for Warranty Exchange only.
Computer Geeks will test and replace all authorized items received.
If an item returned is found to be in working condition Computer Geeks will return the product immediately.

(Please ship all product back as originally received including all retail packaging and accessories.)
If the returned merchandise is found to be defective Computer Geeks will replace the item with a like, suitable, or upgraded replacement that is equal in value.
Computer Geeks will replace all defective merchandise within 7 to 10 business days.
If a suitable replacement is not available the return will be credited to your Computer Geeks account for the full purchase price.
Regarding my RMA to Geeks, since these burners are in "working condition" (albeit with some caveats in that they do not perform as well as they should be able to) what may happen is that I could possibly get the very same Pioneer burner returned to me, just as I sent it, existing problem intact.
Or I could recieive a different model "of equal refurbished value" which would also foil the "experiment."

I am at the mercy of some technician at Geeks to actually read and follow up on the notes I have included describing the problem as I have in this thread.

If that person is concientious, and Geek policy allows, I should receive a different unit, preferably of the same model that the techs have tested beforehand to determine (using the same Imgburn software and operating systems) that no burn rings appear at 8x or greater burn speeds.

But too many past experiences in a variety of venues with issues far less "complex" than this have proven that complacency &/or incompetance is too often becoming the norm as opposed to the exception these days.

Admin said:
Quote:
Trade in one drive and see what happens.
It's a lot like pot luck, but here goes...
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  #11  
06-05-2010, 02:56 PM
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My current external Pioneer is based off the 115/215 model series, and I don't have any problems with those discs. In fact, it burns RITEKF1 pretty well, too, TDK-branded. (Of course, I'd only use those for duplicates, never the master/archival copies.)

Let us know how the new replacement works out.

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